See also: IRC log
<Harold> zakim NRCC is me
<ChrisW> scribenick: GiorgosStoilos
<ChrisW> Scribe: Giorgos Stoilos
<csma> yes
<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-rif-minutes.html
chrisW: minutes accepted
chris: missing minutes from f2f
<scribe> ACTION: chrisW contact Deborah for minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-minutes.html#action01]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - chrisW
<csma> ACTION: to ChrisW to contact Deborrah about the June 26 minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-minutes.html#action02]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
<csma> ACTION: to chairs to publish F2F6 minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-minutes.html#action03]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
<csma> ACTION: to csma to publish F2F6 minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-minutes.html#action04]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
it seems no liaison from other groups
csma: Dave asked about SAWSDL (regarding liaison)
<ChrisW> ^WISMO$SAWSDL^
jos: don't think it is very relevant to RIF
<Harold> http://knoesis.wright.edu/library/presentations/SAWSDL-STC07-
<Harold> May21.ppt
dave: specifies transformation on XML schema elements
<Harold> Semantic Annotation for WSDL slides: http://knoesis.wright.edu/library/presentations/SAWSDL-STC07-May21.ppt
dave: we have not considered it yet
csma: someone should look at
that
... I can but without a formal acion
<Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F7
harold: added something on the
wiki about f2f7 in NRC
... in previous f2f some people mentioned difficulty in
travelling to north america (Markus and MSintek)
chrisw: collect more proposals for f2f7 or stop here?
sandro: think we cannot wait longer
<josb> yes, NY would be more convenient
chrisw: maybe we can wait one more week for me to propose for NY
harold: hassan cannot come to NY
<PaulaP> +1 to propose another location
<sandro> But not for US, PaulaP?
sandro: would be good to have the proposal quickly to open the poll
<PaulaP> I have one for US already :)
chrisw: proposal for first week
of October
... besides 26-28
harold: facilities would probably be available for october
<csma> ACTION: to ChristianD to ask JohnH re a proposal for F2F7 at OMG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-minutes.html#action05]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
chrisw: would like to focus on
issues like "how core is core" etc
... separate work, propose to have task forces
one completing the horn dialect and one in defining a PR dialect
scribe: much discussion cause about differences of PR and horn (core)
<PaulaP> +1 to have a couple of task forces to work in parallel
<sandro> +1 Chris, deferring the label "Core", and working on PR dialect and Horn dialect for now.
<josb> +1 to working on dialects separately
csma: PR-dialect task force
should align as much as possible with core
... find the largest common core
<sandro> csma: the idea is still to strive for the largest core possible
garry: could help on the PR TF
chrisw: main topic now is extensibility
<AxelPolleres> yes
action-322-complete
<csma> action 322 complete
action 320 could be removed cause of the PR TF
<AxelPolleres> done.
action 319 done
action 311 continued
action 305 continued
<csma> action 309-311 due date is Friday 13
action 301 continued could be done by end of week
action 298 continued
action 260 continued (not in agenda today)
action 260 will be in agenda next week
action 256 continued
<csma> ACTION: to christiand to put dataset in the agenda next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-minutes.html#action06]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
action 253 continued
chrisw: Christian and Axel had acions for strawman extensions
<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0039.html
axel describes his extension on NAF
axel: extension of core with
naf
... three extensions stratified negation, well-founded
semantics semantics and stable model semantics for negation
added subclass on condition, which is naf
and has property an atom
not very clear how to define it for stratified cause of syntactic restriction
axel: similar extensions for
smnaf and wfnaf
... syntax allows them to occur together in a program
<sandro> Agreed -- it should not be a problem to inherit properties.
<sandro> or reuse properties.
an issue on if future extensions can extend the current abstract syntax
axel: notions of forward and backward compatibility of extensions
<DaveReynolds> Yes, makes sense to me
<AxelPolleres> Sandro: take this example: a :- not b. b :- not a. c :- a. c :- b.
<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Mini_PR
csma: two different cases when adding a subclass to a class
<Harold> Adding naf to CONDITION does change the semantics of Ruleset: it becomes non-monotonic.
csma: a)a subclass not changing the semantics, like adding naf
<sandro> csma: you have two different cases in adding a new subclass. (1) just adding a class, that doesn't change any of the existing classes. (2) adding a subclass changes the semantics of the whole (cf MiniPR)
csma: b) adding subclass changes meaning of superclass, then should change other subclasses
like mini PR
<AxelPolleres> cvm is an example of handling only strat naf.
<sandro> Sandro: fallback for wfnaf might be to just use naf.
<Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about compatibility in the naf -vs- wfnaf
dave: proposed to use naf for both smnaf wfnaf and have a top-level tag to indicate which one
sandro: the user is not
interested in specifying the semantics of smnaf vs. wfnaf
... proposing each one to fallack to oneanother
... and then to stratified
<AxelPolleres> entailments under sm are a superset of wf entailments!
<sandro> Sandro: to the impact is just on completeness in one direction.
axel: so problem of fallback would be in one direction
<csma> stratification is testable; the fallback could be that a NAF implementation that is able to check stratification CAN replace wfnaf by naf if the received ruleset is stratified
<AxelPolleres> ?!?
<AxelPolleres> the 90% of course depend on who you ask! ;-)
sandro: it is a reasonable fallback to see
<AxelPolleres> many systems "accepting" only strat programs wouldn't check stratifiaction, they just wouldn't terminate or segfault, or alike.
axel: many systems do not check for stratification they just don't terminate
<csma> but the spec could say that you're allowed to replace wfnaf by naf only if you check stratification
axel: what does replace wfnaf with naf means
sandro: replace what you do not know with something you do
<sandro> Axel: if you fallback replace wfnaf to naf, you might now have a non-stratified rulebase, which would be a syntax error.
<sandro> Sandro: Good point. Hmmmm.
<AxelPolleres> The proper way to fallback would bew to ignore all rules "above" the unstrat negation cycle, which would probably again preserve soundness.
harold: would be good to have scoped naf
<PaulaP> +1 to support for modules/scopes
<AxelPolleres> ... I meant fallback from unstrat to strat.
chrisw: this could mean changing syntax to include this
<sandro> issue -- so what if you introduce an extension that changes the meaning of everything else....?
sandro: having a dialect that changes everything does not make sense
<Zakim> DaveReynolds, you wanted to say sm/wf is not a fallback they are peers
<GaryHallmark> keep it simple. the only "fallback" should be to prune the tree. The task is to identify "prune points". E.g. enclosing rule preserves soundness, enclosing conjuct preserves completeness.
<Harold> At the workshop we already discussed CWA: http://www.w3.org/2004/12/rules-ws/report/#negation-as-failure
<sandro> Sandro: I guess it's okay to have an extension that changes to meaning of everything else -- because any dialect that includes that extension would not be parseable as part of any other dialect.
<AxelPolleres> Dave, what you propose is fine with my fallback-proposal
<Harold> "The term Scoped Negation As Failure (SNAF) was proposed to indicate NAF where the scope of the search failure is well defined."
axel: gary's issue is not a phase
1 issue
... don't know of systems doing the unstratified check
... don't think that scope extension is incompatible with the
other
<Zakim> csma, you wanted to reply to Gary re pruning the tree
<AxelPolleres> There is always the simple fallback to core... ignore all rules with negations.
csma: sometimes a fallback can be
a simple replacement compared to cutting the parse tree
... gives an example of horn and miniPR, where fallback is
local
... where if you find retract you just stop
<DaveReynolds> Dave: in talking about extensions and forward compatibility we should distinguish between approximation and true compatibility. For example, if a user is working in WFNAF but their ruleset doesn't use any negation at all then that should be executable by the Horn dialect. But if the WFNAF negation has added a new token like RULESET-WFNAF then the Horn dialect would abort without going...
<DaveReynolds> ...further. We could allow fallback of RULESET-WFNAF to RULESET then it could proceed in the absence of any actual NAF conditions. Similarly in Mini-PR replacing ASSERT atomic by plain atomic is a safe local transform.
gary: i think this is an
interesting example but could have other cases
... in two asserts you generally cannot do that
chrisw: could record the discussion in the extesibility page
sandro: action to try
<csma> ACTION: sandro to make a pass at updating the extensibility page based on the discussions and strawmen [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-minutes.html#action07]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-323 - Make a pass at updating the extensibility page based on the discussions and strawmen [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-07-17].
chrisw: those having acions have to notify for not being able to fulfill their actions due to vacations
<csma> +1
<PaulaP> bye
<AxelPolleres> +1 bye all!
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/WISMO/SAWSDL/ Succeeded: s/this/think/ Succeeded: s/Markup/Markus/ Succeeded: s/difficulti/difficulty/ Succeeded: s/would be available/would probably be available/ Succeeded: s/some people/Christian and Axel/ Succeeded: s/don't know if/don't think that/ Found ScribeNick: GiorgosStoilos Found Scribe: Giorgos Stoilos Default Present: Mike_Dean, csma, +1.989.218.aaaa, +39.047.101.aabb, josb, Harold, Dave_Reynolds, PaulaP, ChrisW, Sandro, StellaMitchell, GiorgosStoilos, DavidHirtle, Gary_Hallmark, AxelPolleres, +39.047.101.aacc, MichaelKifer Present: Mike_Dean csma +1.989.218.aaaa +39.047.101.aabb josb Harold Dave_Reynolds PaulaP ChrisW Sandro StellaMitchell GiorgosStoilos DavidHirtle Gary_Hallmark AxelPolleres +39.047.101.aacc MichaelKifer Regrets: IgorMozetic HassanAitKaci JeffPan AllenGinsberg LeoraMorgenstern PaulVincent Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0052.html Got date from IRC log name: 10 Jul 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/07/10-rif-minutes.html People with action items: chairs christiand chrisw csma sandro to[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]