See also: IRC log
<DanC> Scribe: briansuda
<DanC> minutes 13 Jun
<DanC> dbooth: note 6 Jun record doesn't say who chaired
<iand> I am only available via IRC today I'm afraid
<DanC> (I see a chair in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/att-0046/SV_MEETING_TITLE_--_6_Jun_2007.htm )
<DanC> iand, 13 jun minutes good enough for you?
<DanC> RESOLVED: to approve minutes 13 Jun
<DanC> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 27 June 11:00-0400. scribe volunteer?
<DanC> HarryH, you're still OK for next week, right?
<DanC> RESOLVED: to meet again Wed, 27 June 11:00-0400, danja_ to scribe
<rreck> can someone please provide a link to the agenda?
harry, discuss 1 or 2 or dbooths proposals
<DanC> but for archival purposes...
harry, for primer - addressed comments, queries working (some), ...
danny, referencing profile documents, giving bad results?
<DanC> PROPOSED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member
<HarryH> Embedded RDF?
<DanC> ^that's what I heard harry propose
danny, resulting RDF was not complete, or maybe the guitar example
<DanC> (brian, use danny: to attribute something to danny)
<jjc> The use of a namespace on the root element represents a declaration that the document conforms to the authoritative definition of that namespace as defined by the namespace owner, which may include a transformation from that XML dialect into RDF using GRDDL.
<HarryH> * ACTION: danja to review primer [CONTINUES]
harry: one last grammar check
on the primer
danny: just light editorary thing, and the one error in RDF
<HarryH> Danja, also it would also be useful for you to run queries over sample data.
Dan: keep as much out of the critical path, just Harry and Danny
Danny: david's usecase had the error
that error was fixed yesterday
<jjc> (jeremy + ian)
Harry: looking for consense on proposal
<HarryH> PROPOSED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member.
<FabienG> fabien : concur
<HarryH> RESOLVED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member.
<rreck> version 1.81?
Dan: put the pictures back into the primer
<john-l> That's to publish that to http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/ as a working draft?
<rreck> yes, i concur
Dan: all the actions are closed
on that item
... working draft or note?
<HarryH> Primer as a Note.
<DanC> WG Note fine by me
<HarryH> RESOLVED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 as a WG Note plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member.
name change from embeded-RDF to inline-RDF
<HarryH> ACTION: john-l to ping Dave Beckett about embeddedRDF [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action01]
Harry: do we have earl results from Dave Beckett? - not yet
<jjc> On test cases http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0199
John: contacted Dave about this
<DanC> (is "ACTION: chimezie to update test manifest to include statements about features exercised by each test" done?)
<john-l> DanC, good question; I believe the answer is yes.
Harry: any of chimezie open questions need to be answered
john: not sure if this is not finished
still @@'s on XProc stuff
Harry: get the test editor's draft up to speed to publish next week...
Dan: there have been answers to the @@'s that need to be put into the document
<HarryH> ACTION: john-l to ask chime to fix @@s in test-case document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action02]
<HarryH> Zakim open item 5
Jeremy: should not suggest more tests, they won't get into the draft - they test the LIB not the implementations
no need to formally approve them
Dan: interested in getting them on the test suite
<john-l> ACTION: john-l to exercise GRDDL.py on http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action03]
<jjc> #trix2 does not work yet
Jeremy: will chat with John and seek approval next week
<HarryH> ACTION: jjc to fix glean-profile to work with redirects [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action04]
<dbooth> slides http://dbooth.org/2007/grddl/ambiguity.ppt
david: slide 2, given an XML document, what RDF was intended
slide 3: not disirable abiguity, not forcing author to be unabigious, ...
slide 4, two kinds of ambiguity
1. Wrong results. Results contain different triples than intended.
2. Subsetting. User unknowingly gets a proper subset of the intended results, while believing that he/she got all of them.
leave the door open to future working groups to determine terms
Proposal 1b part 1: Partial solution
Proposal: Change input of GRDDL transformation from XPath node tree to representation
Permits transformation author to reduce variability in the "transformation application" step
Simple normative change
No changes to test cases
Proposal 2b part 1: Better solution
Change input of GRDDL transformation from XPath node tree to representation; and
Specify that parsing is minimal, non-validating/me wn/
<jjc> change: "XML document" to "XML document D"
<jjc> and: "TP applied to R" to "TP applied to D"
<jjc> is the part imported from earlier messages
Reduces unwanted ambiguity problem
Permits transformation author to reduce variability in the "transformation application" step
Simple normative change
No changes to test cases
<DanC> (require non-validating parsing? that conflicts with recent real-world experience, i.e. XTech )
<DanC> (at this point in the process, post-CR, any substantive changes really should come with test cases.)
<jjc> (I discovered that I am using a validating parser - I need to find out how to switch it off)
john: yes, interested
Dan: change from nodeset-document
needs some test-cases, no support without test cases
... based on the proposal, no
<HarryH> DanC - no (without test-cases)
<rreck> yes i am interested. but i think test cases are useful
<HarryH> murray - no
<HarryH> and would require re-opening faithful infoset.
<iand> i abstain
jeremy: opposed, ...
<jjc> (personally speaking)
<HarryH> 3 yes and 3 nos.
<dbooth> dbooth is yes :)
<HarryH> What if jeremy's test case was added:
david: if the test case were added, would there be support?
david: implimentor issues, would/could they make the changes
Murry?: we don't have tests that take a document in, look for transformation, then decide to execute or not?
<jjc> and onwards
all the current apps we use are pipelines
david: 2b part 1 straw poll, same as 1b part 1, with extras
<HarryH> john-l: yes
Dan: against, but needs thought
<HarryH> murray: no
<iand> i abstain
<DanC> (Harry, if there's no open issue, the WG doesn't have to make a decision; a proposal that doesn't get consensus can just go by the wayside)
<danja> muted ipcaller
david: withdraw proposals at this point
Harry: any portion or changes that the WG could improve and push forward?
<DanC> (I think the "complete GRDDL result" idea is interesting, but I'm not sure how to fit it into the WG schedule. I guess I encourage an HP submission or something.)
David: anyone on the fence, what changes would be simple tweaks that would change your thoughts?
danny: hasn't had a chance to
review full, many good points...
... how many of these are known-problems?
Harry: xinclude example, to resolve or not resolve it
Danny: different triples, is different than sub-set - wrong results are problems
Murry: if you don't deal with infoset, then you are missing info.
<DanC> PROPOSED: to respond to issue-dbooth-3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0078.html by noting that the WG sees some room for further study, but has postponed a nearby issue, issue-faithful-infoset , and encourages the community to experiment in this area
murry: DTD and other things add parts to a true XML document
david: permit the author to use things like XProc to control the flow
<Zakim> jjc, you wanted to represent someone else in HP
Murry: the proposal doesn't change how Xproc handles anything
Jeremy: many specs are moving tword ???
<DanC> (re jjc's point, noah M. (in the TAG) often brings up "synthetic infosets" )
Harry: if we postpone this, then it delays the GRDDL spec
<jjc> DanC: proposed to respond to comment noting that we have postponed #faithful-infoset
Harry: anything between normative
... the spec talks about passing the node-tree to transformation language
<Zakim> jjc, you wanted to modify DanC's proposal, if the chair wishes us to consider it
David: wants to hold till next week
Dan: wants to decide now
Jeremy: amendment to Dan's proposal
postponing faithful-info set was an important part of and referenced in our documents
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to suggest that links to open tag issues fit better in the status section
Dan: tag issues in the status section already, could add a link there
add a link to the status section about XML
David: jeremy's wordsmithing, be away to address teh comment
<jjc> this specification anticipates that the
<jjc> resolution of TAG issue
<jjc> <a href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#xmlFunctions-34">
<jjc> will provide further
<jjc> clarification and guidance.
change that text to something else
<jjc> GRDDL is intended to contribute to addressing Web Architecture issues such as RDFinXHTML-35 and namespaceDocument-8 as well as issues postponed by the RDF Core working group such as rdfms-validating-embedded-rdf and faq-html-compliance.
Jeremy: add something near there, similar to my wordsmithing
David: jeremy's wording would certainly be an improvement
Jeremy: Would like Dan to add something in that section about XML
David: WG hold so folks can read, or move forward
Jeremy: has suggest words, but Dan is the editor, so he is over text - up to the editor
trusts dan to edit as he sees fit
<dbooth> specifically words to the effect that the "xmlFunctions-34
<dbooth> will provide further
<dbooth> clarification and guidance"
<DanC> ACTION: DanC to work xmlFunctions-34 ref, incl "guidance..." into status section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action05]
<jjc> Note: Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 00:33:18 -0400 was when the comemnt was made
<HarryH> murray: no
Harry: can't extend this more than next week
if we cannot reach formal consensus by next week, that is it
david: if one more week is given, then the WG has atiquatly addressed the comment
harry: one normative and test case, there is no actual text. these need to be thought through and flush out by next week
<DanC> (it's always best when specific stuff is available as of when the agenda goes out)
<DanC> (http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec 1.271 has an attempt at the xmlFunctions stuff in the status section )
Harry: without chairs hat, this is just a possible design pattern for GRDDL agents for langs that are not XSLT1
<danja> (that makes sense)
David: to use XProc instead of XSLT
Murry: XProc doesn't actually do what david intends
<dbooth> I only know what i have read in the XProc spec
Harry: informative text to the spec or a note, lang not XSLT1 have potential issues
<jjc> (to DanC)
david: part 2, subsetting problem
gets GRDDL results, partical results return, but there is no way to know if they got ALL the results intended
leave the door open to a WG note, ...
ignore the first URL
<danja> (not sure I see the subsetting problem as a problem)
david: involves adding a sentance and add mention about the WG note
<iand> what is the proposal?
<jjc> discussion about WG Note about complete GRDDL result?
dan: interesting, but as team contact no cycles to do admin work
<DanC> (a) mentioning the WG in the body of the spec isn't something I like to do as editor
jeremy: is this actually on the agenda.
<DanC> (b) the suggestion under faithful infoset is a testable assertion
<HarryH> HP submission
Harry: this could be an HP submission rather than a Note
<DanC> (b) the suggestion under faithful infoset is a testable assertion; to add that at this (post-CR) stage suggests adding test cases.
David: is happy to do this as a submission rather than a WG note
Jermey: happy with it to be a note, but does not like the content, against the sentance
<HarryH> ACTION dbooth Send "just that sentence to be added to faithful infoset" over the listserv
Dan: no movement on that action
<dbooth> ACTION: dbooth to Send "just that sentence to be added to faithful infoset" over the listserv [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action06]
Dan: will get around to it eventually
<jjc> Note this was informative not substantive - it is a fair bit of text ...
John: confident that changes are in, would like a review if possible
Jeremy: Dave Beckett has mentioned it.
<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action07]
Harry: comments from Dave Beckett...
Dan: has made changes, found and issue
<jjc> ACTION: jjc to ask DaveBeckett to look at Base appendix, in response to appropriate comment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action08]
<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action09]
<DanC> as to how I'm not done on namespace doc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0174.html
Harry: getting close
<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action10]
<HarryH> Do we want to include raptor in our PR request?
Jeremy: we have more tests to approve next week, so abit of a moving target
Dan: w3c online service and ??? are two implementations
<john-l> Jeremy, are you planning on pushing out some new EARL results soon?
Harry: W3C should be kept correct, even if they use other people's code
<jjc> should do before I go on holiday - EARL
dan: kingsly and co. open link vertuoso? is second implementation
<HarryH> ACTION: HarryH to ping Dom to encourage him to move code. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action11]
<HarryH> ACTION: Danja to contact Kingsley and try to get GRDDL EARL results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action12]
<john-l> ACTION: john-l to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results based on new EARL results as they come in. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action13]
<DanC> danja, if you could wish into your blog about an openlink column in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results , that might do it
Harry: don't want to keep contacting people for EARL for tests we keep adding
<danja> 'k, nice leverage :-)
<john-l> ACTION: john-l to generate new EARL for GRDDL.py. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action14]
Jeremy: wants to keep contacting Dave about back and forth about test lib updates
<DanC> (DanC is happy to add tests as they mature)
Dan: approve them today, contigent on John or wait
Harry: can we ask EARL on un-approved tests
Dan: edit the master list of tests, when you thiink it is resonable
Harry: this will get us EARL results
<HarryH> ACTION: john-l and chime to update test document to reflect new tests (but not one in response dbooth) asap in order for those results to be in EARL. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action15]
Harry: PR request needs EARL inorder...
<HarryH> ACTION: HarryH and DanC to write XML Activity Lead and Chair of XSL/XQuery cc SemWeb CG re quotes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action16]
jeremy: need to close the loop on these comments... are you satisfied, yes/no ...
<DanC> on beckett in particular
<jjc> ACTION: jjc close loop with DaveB on 0102 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action17]
<HarryH> ACTION: jjc review appendix A of test editors draft [DO [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action18]
<DanC> i.e. [DONE]
<HarryH> ACTION: jjc review appendix A of test editors draft [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action19]
<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to review test coverage results via tabulator [WITHDRAWN] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action20]
HArry: results from
... do people feel we are ready for PR?
<HarryH> WBS Survey?
<HarryH> ACTION: HarryH to write draft PR request [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action21]
David: other editoray things he has run across - not major issues
<DanC> (thanks, briansuda , for staying late to scribe.)
<HarryH> Meeting adjourned.
rrsagent draft minutes
RRSAgent draft minutes
<HarryH> produced from
<HarryH> produced from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/hl7-sample-grddl.xml
did we have any regrets today?
<jjc> <rdfs:Description rdf:about="">
<jjc> <rdfs:Description rdf:about=''>
<john-l> Harry, you're still going to press onward with testing the spreadsheet example, right?
<jjc> line 67 of the version of transform in doc29
<HarryH> Yep, will double-check spreadsheet example.
<john-l> Cool; do you need anything else from me?
<HarryH> jjc - sorry gotta catch an airplane!
<HarryH> But if there's a mismatch between primer and test directory we should straighten it out and they should both produce the correct RDF, i.e. no rdfs:Description.
<HarryH> Tell me if you grok what's going on. I'll be busy for the next 3 days but will give everything a good lookover this weekend.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Booth/Beckett/ Found Scribe: briansuda Inferring ScribeNick: briansuda Default Present: dbooth, briansuda, john-l, DanC, rreck, danja_, Harry_Halpin, Murray_Maloney, jjc, FabienG, danja Present: dbooth briansuda john-l DanC rreck danja_ Harry_Halpin Murray_Maloney jjc FabienG danja Regrets: Simone Chime WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0177.html Got date from IRC log name: 20 Jun 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html People with action items: chime danc danja dbooth harryh jjc john-l WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]