<jallan> * jim jr zakim and rrs invited, entered chair

3.1 Toggle background images (P1)

CL: Some IBM people playing with Div's and SPAN's used to look like widgets.

JA: Bit of a different issue...
... 3.1 is background image for the page not for indiv objects

JR: CSS can be used to make real images

CL: Yes and that's what we are working with.

JR: I'm talking at full scale page, CL talking about discrete drawn objects looking like widgets

CL: Yes and with javascript used to control behaviour

JA: Maybe we need clarification...
... Was thinking of full page...
... but could apply to paragraph etc.

JR: If backgrounds cleared on some "widgets" they will dissappear

CL: Also problem in high contrast mode
... In those cases, images would have to be provided if people had turned off css etc.
... And devs don't want to do that.

JA: WOW!
... Not what CSS intended...

CL: Yes but its coming.
... Prob a web content thing to solve...

<jallan> developers are leaving html objects behind, hacking the css, making things out of shapes and appling javascript to them

<jallan> jr: this may be more of an author problem.

JR: These things seem to be hacks - seems to be web content thing

CL: Well toolkits are trying to standardize these drawing techniques

JA: Widget set is like an API

CL: But they have not figured out the inside...

JA: So they aren't using SVG, perhaps since not well implemented
... Scary for accessibility because popping in and out of toolits
... Also not supporting OS level things like high contrast
... Does make this a user agent problem

<jallan> jr: user agents should support the widget set when it becomes standardized

CL: DOJO is becoming well known, but other toolkits as well.

JA: And no unifying group?

CL: People didn't think style sheets would be used that way...

JA: On divs almost need titles

CL: Are doing that.

<jallan> jr: does css need to be a core technology.

<jallan> pp: but there is a still a need to turn off page level background images

<jallan> jr: user agent may need to be able to make somethings high contrast

<jallan> cl: through mark up?

JA: Or widgets need to wrapped in super-divs with new roles...

CL: Somewhat being done in the roadmap

DHTML roadmap

CL: Widgets son't usually have colours

<jallan> jr: e.g. high contrast user yellow forground black background, how does that translate to the widgets.

CL: So is this something that OS's have already done...

<jallan> jr: some want applications to run in the borwser. raster drawing wrapped in divs and become actional objects in the browser

CL: Will discuss more with Becky

JA: So we may need clarification in 3.1 - are we talking about page level background images...

CL: Right but unfortunately we already refer to CSS properties that could be done on element by element.

3.2 Toggle audio, video, animated images (P1)

JA: JR had said how do you turn of sound independent of video.
... But video with sound may have been handed off to embedded player

<jallan> jr: we always come to the secondary player (pugins, objects, etc.)

<jallan> jr: are we at the point of saying a browser is conformant to html and x or y.

<jallan> jr: but if the browser cannot communicate with the plugins and allow control then it is not conformant

JA: As we dance around v1.1, there is browser side and there is plugin side then there is part where they need to talk
... Dream way back when was for conformance reports for all the little plugin players
... Seems to be tied in to compound doc stuff...with all its different layers

3.3 Toggle animated or blinking text (P1)

JA: To me this is confusing...since we say render as motionless then in examples we say turn off with escape

JR: Thinks this is implicit, but we should add explicit technique about having setting for that.

CL: Real problem is defn of animation.
... Could be using Javascript, CSS

JA: Do mention animation in Techniques

oops: animation should have been Javascript

CL: Flash is definatelyu beyond browsers control
... Javascript alone is limitless in ways to create animation
... So are you changing the techs?

JA: Yes making changes to non-normative techniques that could become a note.
... But we are having a problem that lots of issues coming up are not solvable at techniques level when changes required to notmative stuff
... Before Xmas, we worked with Roadmap, we thought things were covered, but now seeing bigger holes.

3.4 Toggle scripts (P1)

CL: Don't know why Applets included...
... ActiveX very Windows specific
... "Executable content includes scripts, applets, and ActiveX controls. This checkpoint does not apply to plug-ins; they are not part of content.

" is weird.

CL: THese things not in definition of content

JA: Applet defintion is weird..UA doesn't execute applets, JVM does
... Otherwise must be able to toggle ActiveX controls, Java, etc

CL" All these things are plugins

Aside: Bugzilla for Firefox development has UAAG bugs.

JA: Next week Techs fo Guideline 4.

JR: F2F?

JA: Could be useful for 1.1 planning or should we move ahead on techniques.

CL: Useful to talk to PF about the direction they want us go.

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Default Present: [IBM], Jim_Allan, [IPcaller]
Present: [IBM] Jim_Allan [IPcaller]
Got date from IRC log name: 13 Jul 2006
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People with action items: 

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