<sandro> SubTopic: RDF_Combination_Blank_Node

09:28:07 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Blank_Node

09:28:33 <sandro> Zakim, IBM is temporarily Stella

09:28:33 <Zakim> +Stella; got it

09:28:39 <StellaMitchell> zakim, ibm is temporarily me

09:28:39 <Zakim> sorry, StellaMitchell, I do not recognize a party named 'ibm'

09:31:11 <Harold> Christian: Can you derive this in BLD, Core, ...?

09:31:51 <Harold> Jos?Michael: Yes, in BLD.

09:32:10 <Harold> s/Jos?Michael/Jos+Michael/

09:34:13 <sandro> csma: if there were a named node, I'm sure it would work.  I'm not sure about the bnode

09:35:24 <sandro> sandro: typical RDF forward-chaining system just do this by inventing names, and marking them as invented.

09:37:25 <Zakim> + +44.145.441.aaaa

09:37:30 <sandro> welcome, Dave.   We're talking about http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Blank_Node

09:39:10 <PaulVincent> Issue: how blank RDF nodes map to PRD (eg object-based rule engines)... probably it is a local variable, so should be no issue...

09:39:10 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-89 - How blank RDF nodes map to PRD (eg object-based rule engines)... probably it is a local variable, so should be no issue...  ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/89/edit .

09:39:16 <PaulVincent> Oops

09:42:22 <sandro> Stella: is this Core or SafeCore?

09:42:50 <sandro> Jos: this is safe

09:43:07 <DaveReynolds> Surely it is not safe, we don't support exists in conclusions

09:43:37 <sandro> PROPOSED: approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Blank_Node for BLD, Core, PRD, and Safe-Core

09:44:22 <Harold> Stella: Core sect 5.1?

09:44:25 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core#Safeness

09:44:44 <sandro> Jos: I believe this "existential" part is an error

09:44:49 <GaryHallmark> dave, a test conclusion is actually a rule condition, not a rule conclusion

09:45:56 <DaveReynolds> object

09:48:04 <sandro> forall ?X  if ?X["http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type"^^rif:iri -> <http://example.org/example#named>] then ex:a[ex:b -> ex:c]

09:48:22 <sandro> test case conclusion: ex:a[ex:b -> ex:c]

09:49:31 <sandro> forall ?X  if ?X["http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type"^^rif:iri -> <http://example.org/example#named>] then test:passed(test:RDF_combination_Blank_node)

09:50:15 <sandro> DaveReynolds: Either is fine.

09:50:35 <Harold> Dave: Withdraw objection.

09:51:30 <sandro> PROPOSED: approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Blank_Node for BLD, Core, PRD, and Safe-Core

09:51:39 <sandro> +1

09:51:45 <GaryHallmark> +1

09:51:54 <AdrianP> +1

09:51:57 <Harold> +1

09:52:00 <Hassan> +1

09:52:01 <josb> +1

09:52:02 <sandro> RESOLVED: approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Blank_Node for BLD, Core, PRD, and Safe-Core

09:52:07 <Michael_Kifer> +1

<sandro> SubTopic: RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_1

09:52:29 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_1

09:55:42 <sandro> Sandro: this is basically a demonstration of what rif:iri means.

09:56:02 <DaveReynolds> But rif:iri is not a datatype in the RDF sense, it is a symbol space.

09:58:28 <sandro> jos: Indeed it's not...

10:02:34 <sandro> Sandro: If we approve this, I'm likely to use it as a hammer to to say "rif:iri" really is a datatype...

10:02:53 <sandro> Jos: We could say rif:iri as a dt isn't defined in these combinations...

10:03:19 <sandro> Sandro: I think we'd better got with "not defined"...

10:04:23 <josb> http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-rdf-owl/#Common_RIF-RDF_Interpretations

10:05:12 <sandro> jos: Condition 6 implies this...

10:06:35 <sandro> Issue: Can rif:iri be used as a datatype in RDF graphs, in combination with RIF?    ie approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_1

10:06:36 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-90 - Can rif:iri be used as a datatype in RDF graphs, in combination with RIF?    ie approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_1 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/90/edit .

10:07:23 <DaveReynolds> Another way of putting it: is rif:iri *required* to be in all datatype maps.

10:07:36 <Harold> Stella: Do we need XML version for all test cases?

10:07:43 <Harold> Sandro: yes.

10:07:56 <Harold> ... no preferred one.

10:08:09 <Harold> ... depends on platform.

10:08:24 <StellaMitchell> for the imported RDF documents, that is

10:10:00 <DaveReynolds> Please could someone post the link to the Test Case you are talking about?

<sandro> SubTopic: RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2

10:10:04 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2

10:11:56 <sandro> DaveReynolds: Surely this requires d-entailment?

10:12:08 <sandro> Jos: Nope, even with Simple you get RIF datatype support.

10:14:37 <sandro> Sandro: There's no way to get RDF out of RIF.  There's no export.   So xs:string deosn't matter.

10:16:08 <Harold> Christian: explanins RDF-RIF interchange on the whiteboard.

10:16:52 <sandro> Jos: Who cares.      Yes, when you pass the rdf-manipulating-rule through RIF, you may find one is producting   "foo" and the other "foo"^^xs:string.   No one really cares about the difference.

10:17:57 <sandro> csma; round tripping could give you both

10:18:07 <sandro> Jos: this is like preserving the order of triples

10:19:29 <DaveReynolds> I agree the test case is fine. Jos which is condition in the document that specifies that mapping for plain literals?  I can find the informative section and the formal conditions for well-typed literals but can't immediately spot the formal condition that covers plain literals.

10:21:47 <sandro> PROPOSED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2 (for all dialects, and it's Safe)

10:21:52 <josb> The RDF semantics says that plain literals are mapped to strings

10:21:54 <josb> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#interp

10:21:57 <AdrianP> +1

10:22:06 <sandro> +1

10:22:11 <josb> +1

10:22:12 <Hassan> +1

10:22:14 <DaveReynolds> +1

10:22:14 <Harold> +1

10:22:17 <mdean> +1

10:22:17 <GaryHallmark> +1

10:22:20 <josb> condition 6 in http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-rdf-owl/#Common_RIF-RDF_Interpretations

10:22:23 <Michael_Kifer> +1

10:22:28 <sandro> RESOLVED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2 (for all dialects, and it's Safe)

<sandro> SubTopic: RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_3

10:22:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_3

10:23:13 <josb> says that typed literals in the RDF part are interpreted as the same object as their counterpart in RIF

10:24:12 <Zakim> + +1.212.781.aabb

10:24:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, aabb is me

10:24:24 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern; got it

10:24:30 <sandro> PROPOSED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_3 (for all dialects, and it's Safe)

10:24:43 <AdrianP> +1

10:24:48 <josb> so, the plain literal "a" in RDF is mapped to the character sequence "a"

10:24:52 <Harold> +1

10:24:53 <sandro> +1

10:24:56 <Hassan> +1

10:24:58 <GaryHallmark> +1

10:25:03 <josb> in RIF, the symbol "a"^^string is mapped to "a"

10:25:04 <sandro> RESOLVED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_3 (for all dialects, and it's Safe)

10:25:14 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_Graph_Entailment_1

10:26:17 <Harold> Jos: RDF graphs in the conclusion, instead of in the condition.

10:27:03 <josb> by condition 6, the typed literal "a"^^string is interpreted in the same way as the RIF constant "a"^^string

10:27:39 <sandro> postpost http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_Graph_Entailment_1 related to issue-90

<sandro> SubTopic: RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_Graph_Entailment_2

10:28:50 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_Graph_Entailment_2

10:30:44 <josb> http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-rdf-owl/#Entailment

10:30:57 <sandro> Sandro: I am very confused -- how come the test case conclusion is in Turtle, not RIF PS ?

10:31:47 <sandro> Jos: This would be true in RDF only with D-entailment and the dt xs:string.

10:32:41 <Harold> Jos: Used Turtle syntax for conclusions.

10:32:58 <Harold> ... to show properties of the language.

10:34:04 <josb> see http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-rdf-owl/#Embedding_Simple_Entailment for implementation of this kind of thing

10:35:17 <Harold> Jos: if you use simple entailment, this is not an entailment.

10:35:33 <StellaMitchell> the ImportSupport property is supposed to help implemantation select which tests are applicable to them

10:35:38 <Harold> Sandro: concerned that we use different languages.

10:36:01 <Harold> Jos: all based on examples from document.

10:38:02 <Harold> Sandro: Perhaps import Turtle and use RIF for rule/conclusion.

10:39:42 <sandro> PROPOSED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_Graph_Entailment_2 but be sure to make it clear that this is a different kind of test case, about RDF entailment.   (Current wiki template does not properly show that.)

10:40:07 <StellaMitchell> sandro, wiki template shows ImportSupport

10:40:38 <Harold> Harold: slot of different formats (RIF, Turtle) from the Test Case Document should be rendered to illustrate interop.

10:41:13 <josb> +1

10:41:18 <Harold> +1

10:41:22 <sandro> +1

10:41:22 <Hassan> +1

10:41:32 <GaryHallmark> +1

10:41:35 <AdrianP> +1

10:41:36 <DaveReynolds> 0

10:41:37 <sandro> RESOLVED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_Graph_Entailment_2 but be sure to make it clear that this is a different kind of test case, about RDF entailment.   (Current wiki template does not properly show that.)

10:41:46 <sandro> (For all languages)

10:42:02 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2

10:42:52 <sandro> ACTION: jos to add a version of http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2 with the import having a ^^xs:string

10:42:52 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos

10:42:52 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)

10:43:01 <sandro> ACTION: jdb to add a version of http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2 with the import having a ^^xs:string

10:43:02 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jdb

10:43:15 <sandro> ACTION: jdebruij2  to add a version of http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2 with the import having a ^^xs:string

10:43:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-684 -  to add a version of http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2 with the import having a ^^xs:string [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-01-21].

10:44:12 <sandro> PROPOSED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_Graph_Entailment_3 with the same caveats as http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_Graph_Entailment_2

10:44:17 <DaveReynolds> -1

10:44:32 <StellaMitchell> I changed the language label

10:45:16 <sandro> Yeah, you shouldn't use rdf:text in Turtle.

10:47:41 <josb> So, you would propose not to define combination with RDF graphs that use rdf:text?

10:48:30 <sandro> Yes

10:49:26 <sandro> dave: it's fine for rdf:text to be in the RIF part.

10:50:39 <Harold> Dave: Must that you do the mapping back again into RDF.

10:51:34 <josb> Again, so, you would propose not to define combination with RDF graphs that use rdf:text?

10:51:39 <sandro> csma: this   ( ex:a ex:p "with language tag@en"^^rdf:text .  ) is bad syntax, as I'm understanding it.

10:55:22 <Harold> Jos: propose to extend issue 90 to rdf:text.

<sandro> SubTopic: RDF_Combination_Member_1

10:56:07 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Member_1

11:01:01 <sandro> PROPOSED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Member_1 for all dialects (BLD, Core, CoreSafe, PRD)

11:01:16 <DaveReynolds> +1

11:01:17 <GaryHallmark> +1

11:01:18 <sandro> +1

11:01:20 <Harold> +1

11:01:20 <AdrianP> +1

11:01:22 <Hassan> +1

11:01:23 <Michael_Kifer> +1

11:01:25 <josb> +1

11:01:31 <sandro> RESOLVED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Member_1 for all dialects (BLD, Core, CoreSafe, PRD)

11:01:33 <StellaMitchell> Three are 3 more proposed RDF combination test cases, and you can find them here: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:RDF%2BBLD_Test

11:02:11 <Harold> Sandro: Loved to see another test case showing ## vs. subclass.

11:02:33 <sandro> ACTION: jos to write a test case or two to illiustrate how ## and rdfs:subClassOf relate

11:02:33 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos

11:02:33 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)

11:02:44 <sandro> ACTION: jdebruij2 to write a test case or two to illiustrate how ## and rdfs:subClassOf relate

11:02:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-685 - Write a test case or two to illiustrate how ## and rdfs:subClassOf relate [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-01-21].

11:03:11 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci

11:03:11 <sandro> csma: Obviously, these '##' test cases don't apply to Core if ## isn't in Core.

<sandro> Topic: Morning Break

11:03:36 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds

11:03:37 <Zakim> -Stella

11:03:48 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern

11:04:49 <sandro> action: josb remind Sandro that 'josb' works in assigning actions.

11:04:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-686 - Remind Sandro that 'josb' works in assigning actions. [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-01-21].

11:05:06 <sandro> action: jdb remind Sandro that 'jdb' works in assigning actions.

11:05:06 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jdb

11:05:17 <sandro> trackbot, reload

11:05:48 <sandro> action: jdb remind Sandro that 'jdb' ALSO works in assigning actions.

11:05:49 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jdb

11:29:56 <Zakim> +DaveReynolds

<sandro> Topic: Object representation (and relationship with frames)

11:31:13 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern

11:42:05 <pvincent> scribenick pvincent

11:42:14 <Zakim> +[IBM]

11:42:40 <StellaMitchell> zakim, ibm is temporarily me

11:42:40 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it

11:42:56 <pvincent> F2F12 late am agenda item = 11:30-12:30 - Object representation (and relationship with frames)

11:45:04 <pvincent> CSMA: presentation on Objects vs Frames - how to translate to/from an OO rule language and RIF frames

11:45:35 <pvincent> CSMA: problem is translating back and forth, where there is no external object model / schema

11:45:37 <sandro> csma: not a problem when you have a schema....

11:46:45 <sandro> slide- Assert(Obj[att->val2]) ----> Obj.att=(val1 val2)

11:48:24 <sandro> Harold: We had a proposal for lists that was very close, but didn't quite make it into BLD.

11:49:22 <pvincent> CSMA: only remaining problem: no way to specify if a frame value is single value or multi value

11:50:45 <sandro> Two problems:   losing MaxCardinality, and no-support-for-lists

11:52:19 <pvincent> CSMA: one solution is cardinality etc metadata but this implies inter-dialect problems

11:53:53 <sandro> Michael_Kifer: This would mean we'd have to have equality in the head...

12:04:56 <pvincent> The problem being discussed: factA and factB existence in Core / logic may be replaced in PRD with factA is replaced with factB (A = B)...

12:06:08 <sandro> Michael_Kifer: We could use metadata to convey cardinality.

12:10:52 <pvincent> CSMA: adds Obj[(comment: Card=1) att->val]

12:11:19 <sandro> Gary:  Two different problems:  (1) How do you convey the maxCard, and (2) what do you do with the infomaiton?

12:11:49 <AdrianP> in BLD o[a->b a->b] reduces to o[a->b a->b]

12:12:06 <DaveReynolds> If the answer to (2) is "it changes how you transform to/from your object model but not the semantics of the rules" then the answer to (1) could indeed be "use metadata"

12:12:10 <AdrianP> but it could be a list collection o[a->list(b,b)]

12:13:23 <AdrianP> in BLD it reduces to o[a->b]

12:20:20 <sandro> pvincent, your scribing is.....   behind.  :-)

12:24:34 <Harold> Put it into the Conformance Clauses?

12:26:20 <Harold> E.g., a slot-uniqueness-conformant BLD?,? consumer/producer ...

12:27:24 <DaveReynolds> Any chance of transcribing something of what you are talking about so we can see it?

12:30:04 <GaryHallmark> test case: car[color->red color->blue] is ok but car[color=red color=blue] is not ok

12:31:23 <pvincent> MK: SANDRO_CAR[metadata Color -> Red] vs SANDRO_CAR[Color=red]

12:31:29 <DaveReynolds> So does Group(  car[color=red]    Forall ?x  (?x[color=blue]) :- (?x(color=red)) )  entail car[color=red] ?

12:33:27 <pvincent> CSMA: suggestion is add cardinality metadata in PRD; then if you want Core compliance you can't use Obj[att=val] only Obj[att->val]

12:40:38 <sandro> csma:  just use some special syntax (eg =) in PRD.

12:43:41 <sandro> csma: So PRD implementations should use "=" when they need to, and "->" when they don't need to, and want interop with Core/BLD.

12:43:44 <pvincent> CSMA: suggesting... PRD supports "=" which does not translate to core, as well as "->"; "=" is not translatable to core as it implies an overwrite

12:44:53 <sandro> Sandro: "=' doesn't just mean maxCard=1, it ALSO implies over-writing.

12:46:26 <sandro> csma: No, we'll use UPDATE action for that

12:46:41 <sandro> Sandro: But, but, but, you just told me....

12:48:22 <DaveReynolds> If PRD does not need the maxCard case to imply update semantics, it certainly doesn't imply equality, so in that case it *is* just annotations to keep track of how to map back results to objects in which case it could be in Core.

12:49:20 <sandro> xPROPOSED- PRD extends frames with some syntactic indicator of maxCard=1 and that over-writing should be done when additional values are encountered, to be used only in rule conclusions. .......

12:50:09 <sandro> the semantics only matter in the conclusion, but for translations, you need to know about it when you do conditions, maybe?

12:52:55 <sandro> PROPOSED: PRD extends frames with some new syntax for attributes which are single-valued and have replacement semantics (matching OO object attributes).   This doesn't make sense for Core or BLD.

12:53:32 <sandro> Michael_Kifer: Maybe prolog could be changed to do this, maybe....

12:53:44 <sandro> PROPOSED: PRD extends frames with some new syntax for attributes which are single-valued and have replacement semantics (matching OO object attributes).   This doesn't make sense for Core or BLD.

12:53:59 <AdrianP> in Prolog you have lists which can be used to have multiple values

12:54:53 <sandro> (proposal tabled for now.... no objections, but maybe a little more clarification, esp w.r.t. schemas.)

<sandro> summary: Consensus was almost (but not) reached, that PRD should be extended with a new syntax for indicating that certain slots are single-valued and have "replacement semantics".   (Topic revisited on Day 2.)

<sandro> topic: Lunch Break

12:55:19 <sandro> ADJOURN until 12:45

Sandro Hawke: ADJOURN until 12:45 ←

12:55:34 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds

Zakim IRC Bot: -DaveReynolds ←

12:55:39 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell

Zakim IRC Bot: -StellaMitchell ←

12:55:41 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeoraMorgenstern ←

12:56:41 <sandro> ADJOURN until 1:45

Sandro Hawke: ADJOURN until 1:45 ←

13:01:50 <sandro> Harold, e-mail to www-archive@w3.org and then look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/w3t-archive/2009Jan/ for it to show up.   Then link to it.

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Sandro Hawke: Harold, e-mail to www-archive@w3.org and then look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/w3t-archive/2009Jan/ for it to show up. Then link to it. ←

13:26:22 <sandro> Harold, here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jan/0005.html

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Sandro Hawke: Harold, here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jan/0005.html ←

13:43:54 <Zakim> +DaveReynolds

(No events recorded for 17 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: +DaveReynolds ←

13:58:36 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?

(No events recorded for 14 minutes)

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the phone? ←

13:58:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, RIF_Meeting_Room, DaveReynolds

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Mike_Dean, RIF_Meeting_Room, DaveReynolds ←

13:58:38 <Zakim> RIF_Meeting_Room has Christian, Gary, Harold, Adrian, Jos, Paul, Micheal_Kifer, Changhai, Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: RIF_Meeting_Room has Christian, Gary, Harold, Adrian, Jos, Paul, Micheal_Kifer, Changhai, Sandro ←

<sandro> Topic: Interoperability with XML (issue-37 and issue-38)

13:58:42 <sandro> starting again.

Sandro Hawke: starting again. ←

14:00:50 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/37

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/37 ←

14:00:56 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/38

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/38 ←

14:01:01 <PaulVincent> scribenick PaulVincent

Paul Vincent: scribenick PaulVincent ←

14:01:11 <sandro> scribenick: PaulVincent

(Scribe set to Paul Vincent)

14:01:35 <PaulVincent> First afternoon topic: Interoperability with XML

First afternoon topic: Interoperability with XML ←

14:02:19 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Oct/0046.html

Sandro Hawke: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Oct/0046.html ←

14:04:46 <sandro> group is looking at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Oct/0046.html

Sandro Hawke: group is looking at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Oct/0046.html ←

14:05:06 <PaulVincent> Gary: look at example (see link above)

Gary Hallmark: look at example (see link above) ←

14:05:22 <DaveReynolds> I

Dave Reynolds: I ←

14:05:38 <DaveReynolds> Gary - could you speak closer to a mike?

Dave Reynolds: Gary - could you speak closer to a mike? ←

14:06:42 <sandro> better?

Sandro Hawke: better? ←

14:06:52 <DaveReynolds> Slightly, thanks.

Dave Reynolds: Slightly, thanks. ←

14:07:30 <PaulVincent> Sandro: syntax on curies eg <tns:/shiporder> should not have angled brackets around them as they are not IRIs

Sandro Hawke: syntax on curies eg <tns:/shiporder> should not have angled brackets around them as they are not IRIs ←

14:08:28 <PaulVincent> Gary: This has as simple standard frame naming from schema definitions

Gary Hallmark: This has as simple standard frame naming from schema definitions ←

14:11:30 <PaulVincent> Note- this XML doc to frame mapping is for the convenience of understanding RIF syntax versus XML docs... it would not be necessary to consider this at runtime (when interchanging rules against XML docs...)

Note- this XML doc to frame mapping is for the convenience of understanding RIF syntax versus XML docs... it would not be necessary to consider this at runtime (when interchanging rules against XML docs...) ←

14:16:23 <PaulVincent> Jos: can the full identifier such as /shiporder/item/title not just be replaced by title?

Jos De Bruijn: can the full identifier such as /shiporder/item/title not just be replaced by title? ←

14:17:03 <PaulVincent> Gary: problem is these named elements can be repeated with different types: element identifier is their path

Gary Hallmark: problem is these named elements can be repeated with different types: element identifier is their path ←

14:17:30 <PaulVincent> Gary: missing info in this scheme includes order, cardinality, ...

Gary Hallmark: missing info in this scheme includes order, cardinality, ... ←

14:29:57 <DaveReynolds> This proposal would also be compatible with using sawsdl to annotate the schema which a URI for the types and properties if you want to.

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Dave Reynolds: This proposal would also be compatible with using sawsdl to annotate the schema which a URI for the types and properties if you want to. ←

14:30:09 <DaveReynolds> s/which/with/

Dave Reynolds: s/which/with/ ←

14:31:27 <PaulVincent> Gary: Equivalent to JAXB mapping

Gary Hallmark: Equivalent to JAXB mapping ←

14:38:47 <sandro> Jos: I still don't understand why you want the whole path, but we can move on.

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Jos De Bruijn: I still don't understand why you want the whole path, but we can move on. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:41:55 <PaulVincent> Discussion of Gary's General Rules for XML-Frame mapping ...

Discussion of Gary's General Rules for XML-Frame mapping ... ←

14:42:17 <PaulVincent> CSMA: points 1-3 are still available from the schema.

Christian de Sainte Marie: points 1-3 are still available from the schema. ←

14:43:00 <DaveReynolds> Jos - the names in XML schema are context sensitive, somewhat like nested structs in C or nested static classes in Java. So property foo on complex type A can, for example,  have a different range from property foo on complex type B. They are not the "same" foo so when assigning URIs making them different URIs makes sense.

Dave Reynolds: Jos - the names in XML schema are context sensitive, somewhat like nested structs in C or nested static classes in Java. So property foo on complex type A can, for example, have a different range from property foo on complex type B. They are not the "same" foo so when assigning URIs making them different URIs makes sense. ←

14:43:09 <Zakim> +ChrisW

Zakim IRC Bot: +ChrisW ←

14:44:03 <PaulVincent> CSMA: ... hence that a RIF engine has different requirements for XML-to-frame versus an interchange for engines that will use the schema natively...

Christian de Sainte Marie: ... hence that a RIF engine has different requirements for XML-to-frame versus an interchange for engines that will use the schema natively... ←

14:47:02 <DaveReynolds> Are you talking about xml schema component designators?

Dave Reynolds: Are you talking about xml schema component designators? ←

14:47:15 <DaveReynolds> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-ref/

Dave Reynolds: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-ref/ ←

14:47:18 <sandro> XML Schema Component Designators.

Sandro Hawke: XML Schema Component Designators. ←

14:49:26 <Zakim> -ChrisW

Zakim IRC Bot: -ChrisW ←

14:50:01 <Zakim> +ChrisW

Zakim IRC Bot: +ChrisW ←

14:51:03 <sandro> Adrian: What about xs:any

Adrian Paschke: What about xs:any [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:51:17 <sandro> Sandro: ... then you're in the land of schema-free XML, and none of this applies.

Sandro Hawke: ... then you're in the land of schema-free XML, and none of this applies. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

14:51:35 <PaulVincent> Discussion on issues with Garys proposal

Discussion on issues with Garys proposal ←

14:52:40 <PaulVincent> CSMA: some of these are for translation of XML docs into RIF which is not required for all RIF use cases (eg where PRD is running rules in an external engine)

Christian de Sainte Marie: some of these are for translation of XML docs into RIF which is not required for all RIF use cases (eg where PRD is running rules in an external engine) ←

14:53:27 <PaulVincent> Sandro: # and ## for ground facts should be in core

Sandro Hawke: # and ## for ground facts should be in core ←

14:54:14 <DaveReynolds> Sandro - you may have to fight for that. The divergence between ## and rdfs causes me problems I'm trying to keep ## out of Core :-)

Dave Reynolds: Sandro - you may have to fight for that. The divergence between ## and rdfs causes me problems I'm trying to keep ## out of Core :-) ←

14:55:30 <PaulVincent> Move to CSMA proposal at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF%2BXML_data-schema

Move to CSMA proposal at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF%2BXML_data-schema ←

14:56:38 <DaveReynolds> For the record: on Gary's proposal, the rules don't explicitly say that the simple type mapping is done but it should be. So in the example  the price value would map to "9.90"^^xsd:decimal.

Dave Reynolds: For the record: on Gary's proposal, the rules don't explicitly say that the simple type mapping is done but it should be. So in the example the price value would map to "9.90"^^xsd:decimal. ←

14:56:52 <sandro> +1 DaveReynolds

Sandro Hawke: +1 DaveReynolds ←

14:59:37 <PaulVincent> CSMA discussing Named element selection: named descendent

CSMA discussing Named element selection: named descendent ←

15:00:30 <sandro> csma: note that I used xs:double cast in the first example, since it's schema-less.

Christian de Sainte Marie: note that I used xs:double cast in the first example, since it's schema-less. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:02:01 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci

Zakim IRC Bot: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci ←

15:02:55 <PaulVincent> CSMA discussing sub-element query: child

CSMA discussing sub-element query: child ←

15:05:16 <PaulVincent> CSMA now discussing attribute query: attribute

CSMA now discussing attribute query: attribute ←

15:07:32 <DaveReynolds> I'm going to sign off in a moment.

Dave Reynolds: I'm going to sign off in a moment. ←

15:07:50 <PaulVincent> Goodnight, Dave

Goodnight, Dave ←

15:08:22 <PaulVincent> CSMA discusses With an XML Schema for the target XML document

CSMA discusses With an XML Schema for the target XML document ←

15:08:41 <sandro> any thoughts on this stuff, DaveReynolds ?

Sandro Hawke: any thoughts on this stuff, DaveReynolds ? ←

15:08:42 <DaveReynolds> One comment on the approach which I'll leave with you :-) Does this proposal assume well -striped XML? The use of # suggests that it does.

Dave Reynolds: One comment on the approach which I'll leave with you :-) Does this proposal assume well -striped XML? The use of # suggests that it does. ←

15:09:00 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds

Zakim IRC Bot: -DaveReynolds ←

15:13:53 <PaulVincent> CSMA discusses Schema-element selection: schema-element descendant

CSMA discusses Schema-element selection: schema-element descendant ←

15:20:15 <sandro> Jos: Can csma's proposal be done just by providing a predicate for xpath?

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Jos De Bruijn: Can csma's proposal be done just by providing a predicate for xpath? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:22:07 <sandro> Jos: It would avoid this odd mixing of syntaxes

Jos De Bruijn: It would avoid this odd mixing of syntaxes [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:23:11 <sandro> csma: eh then the whole query woul dhave to be in xpath

Christian de Sainte Marie: eh then the whole query woul dhave to be in xpath [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:23:50 <Zakim> -ChrisW

Zakim IRC Bot: -ChrisW ←

15:24:30 <Zakim> +ChrisW

Zakim IRC Bot: +ChrisW ←

15:26:15 <Zakim> -ChrisW

Zakim IRC Bot: -ChrisW ←

15:27:26 <Zakim> +ChrisW

Zakim IRC Bot: +ChrisW ←

15:36:05 <sandro> csma: on board ---- ?x # ex:/descendant::shiporder

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Christian de Sainte Marie: on board ---- ?x # ex:/descendant::shiporder [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:36:24 <PaulVincent> CSMA: X # FX:/DESCENDENT::SHIPORDER

Christian de Sainte Marie: X # FX:/DESCENDENT::SHIPORDER ←

15:38:22 <Zakim> -ChrisW

Zakim IRC Bot: -ChrisW ←

15:39:10 <sandro> csma: My proposal ---    ?x @ tns:/descendant::shiporder  ?x[child::shipto->?y]

Christian de Sainte Marie: My proposal --- ?x @ tns:/descendant::shiporder ?x[child::shipto->?y] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:40:13 <sandro> csma: Gary's Proposal  ---   ?x # tns:shiporder      DEEP: ?x[tns:/shiporder/shipto -> ?y ]    FLAT:  ?x[tns:/shipto->?y]

Christian de Sainte Marie: Gary's Proposal --- ?x # tns:shiporder DEEP: ?x[tns:/shiporder/shipto -> ?y ] FLAT: ?x[tns:/shipto->?y] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:42:03 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean

Zakim IRC Bot: -Mike_Dean ←

15:42:51 <sandro> Sandro: test case --- you cannot quanltify over slot names in csma's proposal.

Sandro Hawke: test case --- you cannot quanltify over slot names in csma's proposal. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:43:43 <sandro> sandro: csma, you're providing a bunch of external/magic slot names and types.

Sandro Hawke: csma, you're providing a bunch of external/magic slot names and types. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:44:14 <sandro> jos: Gary's doesn't need/use externals.       csma's uses externals.

Jos De Bruijn: Gary's doesn't need/use externals. csma's uses externals. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:46:40 <sandro> csma:   ... and ?y[child::name->"Ola Nordmann"]

Christian de Sainte Marie: ... and ?y[child::name->"Ola Nordmann"] [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:47:43 <sandro> csma: equivalent to     ?x[child::shipto/child::name->""Ola Nordmann"]      and we could start from root.

Christian de Sainte Marie: equivalent to ?x[child::shipto/child::name->""Ola Nordmann"] and we could start from root. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:50:51 <sandro> jos: how about a general embedding?     every XML document mapped to a RIF formula?

Jos De Bruijn: how about a general embedding? every XML document mapped to a RIF formula? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:51:08 <sandro> sandro: Yeah, you could use a trimmed down version of the PSVI (post-schema-validation infoset).

Sandro Hawke: Yeah, you could use a trimmed down version of the PSVI (post-schema-validation infoset). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:55:11 <sandro> sandro: Is something like this necessary for PRD's success?

Sandro Hawke: Is something like this necessary for PRD's success? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:55:59 <sandro> changhai: I think so; I think I like the flexibility in the direction of csma's proposal....

Changhai Ke: I think so; I think I like the flexibility in the direction of csma's proposal.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

15:56:52 <sandro> ... I'm concerned about how we get collections of values into RIF.

Sandro Hawke: ... I'm concerned about how we get collections of values into RIF. ←

15:58:05 <sandro> csma: Use of type information from xml schema is included explicitely in mine.  I think you can use it the same way in Gary's.

Christian de Sainte Marie: Use of type information from xml schema is included explicitely in mine. I think you can use it the same way in Gary's. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:00:13 <sandro> Changhai:  in    foo # X     X is a type, not a collection....

Changhai Ke: in foo # X X is a type, not a collection.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:04:18 <sandro> Sandro: Is this work necessary to PRD?

Sandro Hawke: Is this work necessary to PRD? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:04:46 <sandro> Paul: Yes, althoug maybe we need even better access to XML (than frames allow).

Paul Vincent: Yes, althoug maybe we need even better access to XML (than frames allow). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:06:05 <sandro> Gary:My proposal is pretty much how our product works (jaxb style -- flash conversion).     The XPath peek & poke approach would be something we'd have to hide in translation.

Gary Hallmark: My proposal is pretty much how our product works (jaxb style -- flash conversion). The XPath peek & poke approach would be something we'd have to hide in translation. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:07:05 <sandro> Gary: I'm not wedded to using the schema to construct names.   JAXB just uses the local names.

Gary Hallmark: I'm not wedded to using the schema to construct names. JAXB just uses the local names. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:07:51 <sandro> sandro: If RIF doesn't do this, you'll need to do a non-standard version of this?

Sandro Hawke: If RIF doesn't do this, you'll need to do a non-standard version of this? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:08:00 <sandro> csma, paul, gary: yes.

Sandro Hawke: csma, paul, gary: yes. ←

16:08:41 <sandro> paul: PRR dodges this issue.

Paul Vincent: PRR dodges this issue. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:08:59 <sandro> Adrian: reaction-ruleml has a way to do something like this.

Adrian Paschke: reaction-ruleml has a way to do something like this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:10:02 <sandro> csma: You could re-use this work with UML instead of Schema.

Christian de Sainte Marie: You could re-use this work with UML instead of Schema. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:11:08 <sandro> "Using RIF with XML and Object-Oriented Data"   ?

Sandro Hawke: "Using RIF with XML and Object-Oriented Data" ? ←

16:11:24 <sandro> csma: I think we'll be content with just "Using RIF with XML"

Christian de Sainte Marie: I think we'll be content with just "Using RIF with XML" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:13:45 <AdrianP> additionally in a query /constraint expression language you could explicitly define closures over object relations which can not be done directly in FOL

Adrian Paschke: additionally in a query /constraint expression language you could explicitly define closures over object relations which can not be done directly in FOL ←

16:14:48 <sandro> csma: If you want to *really* retrieve a class and it's subclasses, you need to do it several different ways, given XMLS.

Christian de Sainte Marie: If you want to *really* retrieve a class and it's subclasses, you need to do it several different ways, given XMLS. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:15:36 <PaulVincent> Way ahead suggestion: have 1 or more DSLs evaluate these approaches for embedding XML-enabled PRD in their docs, eg MISMO?

Way ahead suggestion: have 1 or more DSLs evaluate these approaches for embedding XML-enabled PRD in their docs, eg MISMO? ←

16:19:48 <sandro> PROPOSED: Create a new document, something like "Using RIF with OWL", addressing ISSUE-37 and ISSUE-38, in the space of Gary and Christian's proposals, for RIF rules to use XML data wth and without a schema.   What it specifies should work with Core, BLD, and PRD, and is important to the success of RIF.

PROPOSED: Create a new document, something like "Using RIF with OWL", addressing ISSUE-37 and ISSUE-38, in the space of Gary and Christian's proposals, for RIF rules to use XML data wth and without a schema. What it specifies should work with Core, BLD, and PRD, and is important to the success of RIF. ←

16:20:05 <sandro> gah.   typo of "OWL" for "XML"  :-)

Sandro Hawke: gah. typo of "OWL" for "XML" :-) ←

16:20:29 <sandro> PROPOSED: Create a new document, something like "Using RIF with XML", addressing ISSUE-37 and ISSUE-38, in the space of Gary and Christian's proposals, for RIF rules to use XML data wth and without a schema.   What it specifies should work with Core, BLD, and PRD, and is important to the success of RIF.

PROPOSED: Create a new document, something like "Using RIF with XML", addressing ISSUE-37 and ISSUE-38, in the space of Gary and Christian's proposals, for RIF rules to use XML data wth and without a schema. What it specifies should work with Core, BLD, and PRD, and is important to the success of RIF. ←

16:20:33 <Harold> zakim, who is here?

Harold Boley: zakim, who is here? ←

16:20:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see RIF_Meeting_Room, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see RIF_Meeting_Room, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted) ←

16:20:34 <Zakim> RIF_Meeting_Room has Christian, Gary, Harold, Adrian, Jos, Paul, Micheal_Kifer, Changhai, Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: RIF_Meeting_Room has Christian, Gary, Harold, Adrian, Jos, Paul, Micheal_Kifer, Changhai, Sandro ←

16:20:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see StellaMitchell, ChrisW, Hassan, csma, PaulVincent, josb, GaryHallmark, Michael_Kifer, cke, Harold, RRSAgent, AdrianP, sandro, mdean, trackbot, Zakim

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see StellaMitchell, ChrisW, Hassan, csma, PaulVincent, josb, GaryHallmark, Michael_Kifer, cke, Harold, RRSAgent, AdrianP, sandro, mdean, trackbot, Zakim ←

16:21:43 <sandro> csma: it's important that whatever we do relies on features in current engines.    and be extensible for doing stuff like more of XPath in the future.

Christian de Sainte Marie: it's important that whatever we do relies on features in current engines. and be extensible for doing stuff like more of XPath in the future. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:21:45 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell

Zakim IRC Bot: +Stella_Mitchell ←

16:22:04 <sandro> PROPOSED: Create a new document, something like "Using RIF with XML", addressing ISSUE-37 and ISSUE-38, in the space of Gary and Christian's proposals, for RIF rules to use XML data wth and without a schema.   What it specifies should work with Core, BLD, and PRD, and is important to the success of RIF.

PROPOSED: Create a new document, something like "Using RIF with XML", addressing ISSUE-37 and ISSUE-38, in the space of Gary and Christian's proposals, for RIF rules to use XML data wth and without a schema. What it specifies should work with Core, BLD, and PRD, and is important to the success of RIF. ←

16:22:50 <ChrisW> i haven't been part of the discussion

Chris Welty: i haven't been part of the discussion ←

16:23:03 <ChrisW> but i would strongly object to starting new work

Chris Welty: but i would strongly object to starting new work ←

16:23:15 <sandro> PROPOSED: Create a new document, something like "Using RIF with XML", addressing ISSUE-37 and ISSUE-38, in the space of Gary and Christian's proposals, for RIF rules to use XML data wth and without a schema.   What it specifies should work with Core, BLD, and PRD, and is important to the success of RIF.    This technology is not just for use of XML data, but for using XML Schemas to communicate data models.

PROPOSED: Create a new document, something like "Using RIF with XML", addressing ISSUE-37 and ISSUE-38, in the space of Gary and Christian's proposals, for RIF rules to use XML data wth and without a schema. What it specifies should work with Core, BLD, and PRD, and is important to the success of RIF. This technology is not just for use of XML data, but for using XML Schemas to communicate data models. ←

16:23:54 <sandro> ChrisW, Gary, Paul, and the ILOG (and IBM company) folks say they have to have this for PRD to be useful.

Sandro Hawke: ChrisW, Gary, Paul, and the ILOG (and IBM company) folks say they have to have this for PRD to be useful. ←

16:24:04 <sandro> s/,/-/

Sandro Hawke: s/,/-/ ←

16:24:49 <ChrisW> I've heard the same argument for a lot of things in RIF

Chris Welty: I've heard the same argument for a lot of things in RIF ←

16:25:39 <csma> The alternative to starting a new doc is including it in PRD.

Christian de Sainte Marie: The alternative to starting a new doc is including it in PRD. ←

16:26:13 <csma> since this is useful to other dialects as well, better put it in a separate doc instead of a PRD section

Christian de Sainte Marie: since this is useful to other dialects as well, better put it in a separate doc instead of a PRD section ←

16:26:49 <ChrisW> finish the work on PRD first, then consider this for a note.  But only when the existing drafts are at LC

Chris Welty: finish the work on PRD first, then consider this for a note. But only when the existing drafts are at LC ←

16:27:05 <ChrisW> no new work

Chris Welty: no new work ←

16:27:09 <ChrisW> i repeat, no new work

Chris Welty: i repeat, no new work ←

16:27:10 <sandro> sandro: I think the risk of new-work is somewhat reduced buy having it be an independent document.

Sandro Hawke: I think the risk of new-work is somewhat reduced buy having it be an independent document. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:27:31 <Harold> Also look into related work such as Schema-Aware Queries and Stylesheets (http://www.stylusstudio.com/schema_aware.html) and Schema-aware processing with XSLT (http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-schemaxslt.html).

Harold Boley: Also look into related work such as Schema-Aware Queries and Stylesheets (http://www.stylusstudio.com/schema_aware.html) and Schema-aware processing with XSLT (http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-schemaxslt.html). ←

16:27:47 <ChrisW> this has too many other implications

Chris Welty: this has too many other implications ←

16:27:55 <ChrisW> i will object

Chris Welty: i will object ←

16:30:44 <sandro> sandro: We could publish a VERY DRAFT WD on this, which is just the cut and paste of Gary's and CSMA's proposals, to [as csma says] let people know this kind of work is doable, so they know PRD might be useful.

Sandro Hawke: We could publish a VERY DRAFT WD on this, which is just the cut and paste of Gary's and CSMA's proposals, to [as csma says] let people know this kind of work is doable, so they know PRD might be useful. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:31:31 <sandro> gary: In our product, we tried an xpath thing, but ended up putting the whole document in, because it worked better for what customers wanted.

Gary Hallmark: In our product, we tried an xpath thing, but ended up putting the whole document in, because it worked better for what customers wanted. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:32:58 <sandro> csma: I want to borrow XPath.

Christian de Sainte Marie: I want to borrow XPath. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:34:33 <sandro> gary: RIF CL is already a query language, so it's kind of painful to combine it with another, like XPath.

Gary Hallmark: RIF CL is already a query language, so it's kind of painful to combine it with another, like XPath. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

16:34:35 <sandro> csma: true.

Christian de Sainte Marie: true. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

<sandro> topic: Afternoon Break

16:34:42 <sandro> BREAK until 17:00

Sandro Hawke: BREAK until 17:00 ←

16:35:06 <Zakim> -Stella_Mitchell

Zakim IRC Bot: -Stella_Mitchell ←

16:37:21 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci

Zakim IRC Bot: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci ←

17:04:53 <sandro> scribenick: Michael_Kifer

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(Scribe set to Michael Kifer)

<sandro> topic: Forall in Core/BLD vs PRD

17:05:02 <sandro> restarting

Sandro Hawke: restarting ←

17:06:31 <Michael_Kifer> CSMA: issue: forall is different in BLD and PRD

Christian de Sainte Marie: issue: forall is different in BLD and PRD ←

17:06:47 <sandro> csma: Forall means something different in PRD from Core.   It means "for each value that you can bind" ...   which has the same effect.    But PRD also needs the real forall...?

Christian de Sainte Marie: Forall means something different in PRD from Core. It means "for each value that you can bind" ... which has the same effect. But PRD also needs the real forall...? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:10:18 <sandro> sandro: (listening to Changhai's example) You want an aggregate.       if forall x...

Sandro Hawke: (listening to Changhai's example) You want an aggregate. if forall x... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:10:33 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell

Zakim IRC Bot: +Stella_Mitchell ←

17:13:31 <sandro> sandro: so this, in practice, needs closed world assumption,

Sandro Hawke: so this, in practice, needs closed world assumption, [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:13:35 <sandro> jos: or negation

Jos De Bruijn: or negation [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:14:37 <sandro> gary: we have this now in PRD via "not exists".

Gary Hallmark: we have this now in PRD via "not exists". [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:15:56 <Michael_Kifer> the issue seems to be "forall" outside of the rule vs. "forall" in the rule body

the issue seems to be "forall" outside of the rule vs. "forall" in the rule body ←

17:16:17 <sandro> paul: "if at least 3..."

Paul Vincent: "if at least 3..." [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:17:01 <sandro> csma: So the forall inside the rule and outside the rule are really the same?

Christian de Sainte Marie: So the forall inside the rule and outside the rule are really the same? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:17:10 <sandro> Michael_Kifer: Yes

Michael Kifer: Yes [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:17:15 <sandro> Jos: Yes

Jos De Bruijn: Yes [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:21:55 <Michael_Kifer> decided that this is a non-issue

decided that this is a non-issue ←

17:21:56 <Harold> BLD's Forall can work over infinite sets such as {0, s(0), s(s(0)), . . .}:

Harold Boley: BLD's Forall can work over infinite sets such as {0, s(0), s(s(0)), . . .}: ←

17:22:01 <Harold> Forall ?N ( nat(s(?N)) :- nat(?N) )

Harold Boley: Forall ?N ( nat(s(?N)) :- nat(?N) ) ←

17:22:30 <josb> Next topic, please!

Jos De Bruijn: Next topic, please! ←

17:22:52 <sandro> csma: on board:

Christian de Sainte Marie: on board: [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:22:52 <sandro> forall ?x ( ?x # Car)

Sandro Hawke: forall ?x ( ?x # Car) ←

17:22:52 <sandro>   if forall ?y ( ?y # Door )

Sandro Hawke: if forall ?y ( ?y # Door ) ←

17:22:52 <sandro>        ?x[door->?y] and ?y[color->red]

Sandro Hawke: ?x[door->?y] and ?y[color->red] ←

17:22:52 <sandro>   then Paint It Blue

Sandro Hawke: then Paint It Blue ←

17:23:13 <sandro> (all agree, the two forall as "the same", and can use the same syntax.)

Sandro Hawke: (all agree, the two forall as "the same", and can use the same syntax.) ←

17:23:42 <sandro> (if the language were to support forall inside a condition.)

Sandro Hawke: (if the language were to support forall inside a condition.) ←

17:23:45 <Michael_Kifer> Topic: issue 39, RIF should support import or inclusion of rulesets

17:23:46 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/39

Jos De Bruijn: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/39 ←

17:27:00 <Michael_Kifer> import is in core already. CSMA: might cause conflicts in conflict resolution strategies

import is in core already. CSMA: might cause conflicts in conflict resolution strategies ←

17:28:56 <sandro> agreed.  If PRD imports with a different Res.Strat. it should ... say what happens.  (one rules, or error, or something.)

Sandro Hawke: agreed. If PRD imports with a different Res.Strat. it should ... say what happens. (one rules, or error, or something.) ←

17:29:10 <Michael_Kifer> proposed: close issue 39

PROPOSED: close ISSUE-39 ←

17:29:24 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-39, saying ruleset-imports is in Core, and we're not going to define an "includes" at this time.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-39, saying ruleset-imports is in Core, and we're not going to define an "includes" at this time. ←

17:29:35 <Michael_Kifer> because core already has import

because core already has import ←

17:29:36 <josb> +1

Jos De Bruijn: +1 ←

17:30:02 <Harold> +1

Harold Boley: +1 ←

17:30:34 <sandro> Michael_Kifer: i'd like includes would be including rules, not whole documents....

Michael Kifer: i'd like includes would be including rules, not whole documents.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:30:55 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-39, saying ruleset-imports is in Core, and we're not going to define an "includes" at this time (in part because we don't know what it might mean).

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-39, saying ruleset-imports is in Core, and we're not going to define an "includes" at this time (in part because we don't know what it might mean). ←

17:31:02 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

17:31:07 <josb> ++1

Jos De Bruijn: ++1 ←

17:31:17 <Michael_Kifer> +1

+1 ←

17:31:18 <josb> +++1

Jos De Bruijn: +++1 ←

17:36:32 <sandro> Sandro: it sounds like Core:imports wont be a pain to implement in PRD, even though it doesn't do all the fance stuff some PRD engines really want in imports.

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Sandro Hawke: it sounds like Core:imports wont be a pain to implement in PRD, even though it doesn't do all the fance stuff some PRD engines really want in imports. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:37:50 <sandro> csma: Import is specified in the dumb way -- without juggling priorities -- so it's not very useful in PRD.

Christian de Sainte Marie: Import is specified in the dumb way -- without juggling priorities -- so it's not very useful in PRD. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:38:35 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci

Zakim IRC Bot: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci ←

17:39:01 <sandro> gary: Yeah, someday we'll need to specify complex ways to do import in PRD.

Gary Hallmark: Yeah, someday we'll need to specify complex ways to do import in PRD. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:39:53 <Michael_Kifer> current import mechanism is too primitive for PRD. Need to expand it in the future for PRD

current import mechanism is too primitive for PRD. Need to expand it in the future for PRD ←

17:41:01 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close issue-39, saying ruleset-imports is in Core, and we're not going to define an "includes" at this time (in part because we don't know what it might mean).    It ends up in PRD, where it's not ideal, but not really harmful.   Some PRD may do a more sophisticated import at some point.

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-39, saying ruleset-imports is in Core, and we're not going to define an "includes" at this time (in part because we don't know what it might mean). It ends up in PRD, where it's not ideal, but not really harmful. Some PRD may do a more sophisticated import at some point. ←

17:41:03 <Michael_Kifer> csma: the current import mechanism in core is acceptable, but it is not very interesting for prd.

Christian de Sainte Marie: the current import mechanism in core is acceptable, but it is not very interesting for prd. ←

17:41:28 <sandro> s/RESOLVED/PROPOSED/

Sandro Hawke: s/RESOLVED/PROPOSED/ ←

17:42:15 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close issue-39, saying ruleset-imports is in Core, and we're not going to define an "includes" at this time (in part because we don't know what it might mean).    'Imports' ends up in PRD, where it's not ideal, but not really harmful.   Some version of PRD may do a more sophisticated import at some point.

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-39, saying ruleset-imports is in Core, and we're not going to define an "includes" at this time (in part because we don't know what it might mean). 'Imports' ends up in PRD, where it's not ideal, but not really harmful. Some version of PRD may do a more sophisticated import at some point. ←

17:42:26 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1 ←

17:42:47 <sandro> Harold: when you find the better imports, propose it to the rest of RIF!

Harold Boley: when you find the better imports, propose it to the rest of RIF! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:42:58 <Harold> +1

Harold Boley: +1 ←

17:43:05 <josb> +1

Jos De Bruijn: +1 ←

17:43:06 <Michael_Kifer> +1

+1 ←

17:43:06 <AdrianP> +1

Adrian Paschke: +1 ←

17:43:07 <GaryHallmark> +1

Gary Hallmark: +1 ←

17:43:16 <PaulVincent> +1

Paul Vincent: +1 ←

17:43:45 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close issue-39, saying ruleset-imports is in Core, and we're not going to define an "includes" at this time (in part because we don't know what it might mean).    'Imports' ends up in PRD, where it's not ideal, but not really harmful.   Some version of PRD may do a more sophisticated import at some point.

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-39, saying ruleset-imports is in Core, and we're not going to define an "includes" at this time (in part because we don't know what it might mean). 'Imports' ends up in PRD, where it's not ideal, but not really harmful. Some version of PRD may do a more sophisticated import at some point. ←

17:43:55 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←

17:43:55 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-rif-irc#T01-44-04

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-rif-irc#T01-44-04 ←

17:50:35 <sandro> Sandro: let's put "filters" ("such that" expressions) as syntactic sugar into Core.

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Sandro Hawke: let's put "filters" ("such that" expressions) as syntactic sugar into Core. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:50:52 <sandro> MK: bounded quantifies.

Michael Kifer: bounded quantifies. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:50:53 <cke> good idea

Changhai Ke: good idea ←

17:50:58 <josb> Let's not. The syntax is already complicated enough

Jos De Bruijn: Let's not. The syntax is already complicated enough ←

17:52:20 <sandro> Sandro: So, if we have to do a LC2 -- then we can talk about this.

Sandro Hawke: So, if we have to do a LC2 -- then we can talk about this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:54:09 <sandro> ISSUE: Should we put bounded quantifiers into Core?   (forall x such than x # C ...) (esp if we need an LC2 for BLD anyway)

ISSUE: Should we put bounded quantifiers into Core? (forall x such than x # C ...) (esp if we need an LC2 for BLD anyway) ←

17:54:23 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-91 - Should we put bounded quantifiers into Core?   (forall x such than x # C ...) (esp if we need an LC2 for BLD anyway) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/91/edit .

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-91 - Should we put bounded quantifiers into Core? (forall x such than x # C ...) (esp if we need an LC2 for BLD anyway) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/91/edit . ←

17:57:52 <sandro> MK: bounded quants are not very useful in BLD, and the re-writing is a little tricky.

Michael Kifer: bounded quants are not very useful in BLD, and the re-writing is a little tricky. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:58:42 <sandro> csma: Many rules are written with BQs, and people don't want to discard that optimization.   Also, you need BQs for any else-clause.

Christian de Sainte Marie: Many rules are written with BQs, and people don't want to discard that optimization. Also, you need BQs for any else-clause. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←

17:59:18 <Zakim> -Stella_Mitchell

Zakim IRC Bot: -Stella_Mitchell ←

17:59:31 <Michael_Kifer> Forall ?X in C (h :- body) is Forall ?X (h :- body and C).

Forall ?X in C (h :- body) is Forall ?X (h :- body and C). ←

18:01:40 <sandro> ADJOURN  - 1 minute late

Sandro Hawke: ADJOURN - 1 minute late ←

18:02:33 <josb> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=higgins+portland&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=34.945679,58.886719&ie=UTF8&ll=45.51541,-122.680957&spn=0.001887,0.003594&z=18&iwloc=A

Jos De Bruijn: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=higgins+portland&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=34.945679,58.886719&ie=UTF8&ll=45.51541,-122.680957&spn=0.001887,0.003594&z=18&iwloc=A ←

18:04:01 <josb> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=SW+5th+Ave&daddr=1239+SW+Broadway,+Portland,+OR+97205+(Higgins+Restaurant)&hl=en&geocode=FYaBtgId7w6w-A%3B&mra=cc&dirflg=w&sll=45.515407,-122.680786&sspn=0.001887,0.003594&ie=UTF8&z=18

Jos De Bruijn: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=SW+5th+Ave&daddr=1239+SW+Broadway,+Portland,+OR+97205+(Higgins+Restaurant)&hl=en&geocode=FYaBtgId7w6w-A%3B&mra=cc&dirflg=w&sll=45.515407,-122.680786&sspn=0.001887,0.003594&ie=UTF8&z=18 ←

18:06:39 <josb> coffee is at http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=45.515221,-122.679648&daddr=128+SW+3rd+Ave,+Portland,+OR+97204+(Stumptown+Coffee+Roasters)&hl=en&geocode=&mra=mi&mrsp=0&sz=15&dirflg=w&sll=45.518045,-122.676859&sspn=0.015095,0.028753&ie=UTF8&z=15

Jos De Bruijn: coffee is at http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=45.515221,-122.679648&daddr=128+SW+3rd+Ave,+Portland,+OR+97204+(Stumptown+Coffee+Roasters)&hl=en&geocode=&mra=mi&mrsp=0&sz=15&dirflg=w&sll=45.518045,-122.676859&sspn=0.015095,0.028753&ie=UTF8&z=15 ←

18:08:22 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci

Zakim IRC Bot: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci ←

18:09:21 <Zakim> -RIF_Meeting_Room

Zakim IRC Bot: -RIF_Meeting_Room ←

18:09:22 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the phone? ←

18:09:23 <Zakim> SW_RIF(F2F12)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RIF(F2F12)11:00AM has ended ←

18:09:25 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike_Dean, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Christian, Gary, Harold, Adrian, Jos, Paul, Micheal_Kifer, Changhai, Sandro, Stella, +44.145.441.aaaa, DaveReynolds, +1.212.781.aabb,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Mike_Dean, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Christian, Gary, Harold, Adrian, Jos, Paul, Micheal_Kifer, Changhai, Sandro, Stella, +44.145.441.aaaa, DaveReynolds, +1.212.781.aabb, ←

18:09:29 <Zakim> ... LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, ChrisW, Stella_Mitchell

Zakim IRC Bot: ... LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, ChrisW, Stella_Mitchell ←

18:09:31 <Zakim> apparently SW_RIF(F2F12)11:00AM has ended, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: apparently SW_RIF(F2F12)11:00AM has ended, sandro ←

18:09:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see cke, ChrisW, Hassan, csma, josb, GaryHallmark, Michael_Kifer, Harold, RRSAgent, sandro, mdean, trackbot, Zakim

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cke, ChrisW, Hassan, csma, josb, GaryHallmark, Michael_Kifer, Harold, RRSAgent, sandro, mdean, trackbot, Zakim ←

18:14:56 <sandro> rrsagent, make record public

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Sandro Hawke: rrsagent, make record public ←

18:14:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request, sandro

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request, sandro ←

18:15:01 <sandro> rrsagent, make minutes

Sandro Hawke: rrsagent, make minutes ←

18:15:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-rif-minutes.html sandro

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-rif-minutes.html sandro ←

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This revision (#3) generated 2009-01-20 16:02:12 UTC by 'unknown', comments: 'some more topics'