See also: IRC log
See also pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulwalk/sets/72157625231631710/
See also: Summary of F2F outcomes
<paulwalk> Locah Project blog post: http://blogs.ukoln.ac.uk/locah/
topic list for today
<rayd> topic list was created as a placeholder originally
now is good time to figure it out
some relate to use cases, some are short and we haven't figured them out etc
discussion should be deliverable oriented, focused discussion
classify discussion into three areas
1. topics covered by use cases, which we should examine further, or for which a use case should be found first
2. topics to be treated as requirements
3. deliverables. things we can achieve
new topics might be created in the course of this discussion
for example, recommended software
first topic, knowledge representation
all about which vocabularies we are using.
michaelp: doesn't fit with a particular use case.
<emma> ...they are all about how we represent our domain knowledge
frsad, for example, has simple model how do we represent that, event or concept
a knowledge representation question
emanuelle: how to model domain
emanuelle: do we want to do in group, or is it for future.
marcia: more than one way to do it. decision to be made by people who assign subject terms
michaelp One of the main ideas of semantic Web: use a URI for real stuff.
<marcia> FRSAD is a conceptual model. SKOS can be used to implment the model. But there are two options: SKOS only (lables are properties of a concept) or SKOS + extension for labels
antoine: hard to go into this detail for every model.
Gordon: Generally, we should be recommending VESes as ranges.
gordon: general good practice for linked data. range should be a URI.
emma: need best practice for modelling. is it possible to do this in our timeframe.
michaelp: it is a requirement rather than best practice
Marcia: Differentiate label - FRSAD - SKOS-XL. SKOS without XL works for some vocabularies. We should say: "Here are the two approaches".
Marcia: present different recipes for people to decide.
<marcia> SKOS eXtension for Labels (SKOS-XL) http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-reference/#xl
non bibliographic data
there is one circulation and an identifier use case
emma: rec. dev. is
outside our scope. there are plenty of statistical
... If a vocabulary is missing, we can point it out.
gordon: appl profile for collection description.
<markva> anybody interested in statistics models should look at http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/html/index.html
<TomB> Gordon: There is a Dublin Core application profile for Collection Description - http://dublincore.org/groups/collections/collection-application-profile/
gordon: there are models in other domains, we don't have to invent everything
next: citations use cases
next: application profiles
tom: requirement to clarify what an app profile is and that there are different approaches, point to one or two, some issues
karen: a small number
... Libraries should try to converge on some common application profiles.
antoine: wonder whether previous item, frs, should be with app profiles.
tom: should there be something on isbd?
karen: isnt isbd itself an app model
gordon: no it's a data model
<marcia> ISBD is a data model
gordon: its flat, premarc, no concept of authority data
<TomB> Suggest that we mention role of application profiles not only in ISBD but in RDA.
profile is more like what steps you need to follow
... Question is if APs are sets of documentations, or APs are technical specifications to be implmented.
tom: role of this group not to say it's one or the other (other being syntax) but point out areas like rda etc
jon: "style" of appl. profile?.
next: legacy data, first subtopic inventory available linked data
gordon: maintenance issue, anything we identify will be out of date soon
tom: do it on fringes but not a core activity
next: vocabularies statuses
gordon: moving targets
karen: difficult for us to know what's being developed and we need better communication channel.
next: Translation of data in MARC format to linked data
mike: translation of data or translation of marc?
"should marc have an rdf representation"
gordon: at least half dozen efforts, experimental, group should take note of that
next: Populating reference data models when legacy data is not perfectly fitting
<TomB> My understanding of this discussion: In Gordon's update of status of new RDF vocabularies (FRBR, etc) - comment on desirability (or not) of expressing the MARC model in RDF
<TomB> ...in addition to the issue of converting MARC records into RDF (not necessarily using an RDF representation of MARC)
<antoine> Scribe: Mark van Assem
GordonD: frbr is 4 records
instead of one
... application profile bridges gap
<TomB> Gordon: Coming around to thinking: MARC to RDF triples, then build it into an ISBD record, or whatever. The promise of linked data, focus shifts from record to statement. Application profile fills the gap. Break down, then build back up.
next: [LLD. COMMON-MODEL]
is same as previous
next :[LLD. AUTHORITIES] is in use cases
TomB: problem with wording of the Topic, entities = vocabulaires?
kcoyle: SKOS is handy to put authorities into
alex: already have FRAD
GordonD: authority data is about labels, not entities themselves
Jeff: but SKOS (XL) does both
kcoyle: were two separate databases; in this new world how we model that
emma: req or not?
kcoyle: comes up in use cases
GordonD: The issue here is bibliographic entities versus real-world entities.
michaelp: this is what KR topic
is about we discussed in begin
... LD challenges our notion that biblio entities are completely cut off from real-world entities.
michaelp: litmus test for FRs
... "crossing the streams" - challenges us to think of authority files in a different way.
GordonD: is there 1-1 relationship between entities and bib entity within semweb?
emma: put it in deliverable
Karen: Used to be a database in the back room.
<marma> Data is here: http://libris.kb.se/data/auth/220040?format=text%2Frdf%2Bn3
<TomB> Jeff: In VIAF, - Martin suggested using FOAF.
Martin suggest to use foaf:focus to link the foaf:person to skos:concept
Antoine: keep the two topics
... be aware that authority data diff of real world
... then how to articulate link
... separate issue and practical solutions, patterns, and cases that use them
Antoine: observable in VIAF, they produce skos:Concept and foaf:Person from same piece of data
next: [LLD. SPECIFIC-VOCABS]
next: [LLD. SKOS-FOR-INTEGRATED-KOS]
marcia: making connections
between vocabs; alignments
... generate superstructure behind linked vocabularies, like UMLS and HILT
... use case bernard and gordon from user point of view find things without being aware of underlying diff vocabs
... available tool or facility; still gap if it's not linked data
kcoyle: include in use case exploration:
GordonD: existing research into
relations that appeared.
... a while ago, a group came up with 15 relations for vocabulary alignment. SKOS looked at this and rejected the complexity. But there is a requirement for something more complex than SKOS, particularly in the subject area, in order to provide terminology services to end users.
... simplistic relations are not adequate for use case in cluster of vocab merging
marcia: could be use case based
... Terminology mapping backend - available terminology registries - already there, but no link yet with Linked data environment.
emma: put in use case
michaelp: terminology registry use case or a mapping use case?
GordonD: use case that refers to existing research papers; This problem has been well-researched, HILT reports on interoperability - show the complexity. ... we can re-use the SKOS use case for HILT and cite them here - also important in establishing the relationship between SKOS and ...
ACTION: GordonD and antoine to study use cases that relate to vocabulary merging use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action01]
next: [LLD. SKOS-MULTILINGUAL] is a use case
next: [LLD. SKOS-LIB-KOS] in deliverables
michaelp: is it about what's been done or what difficulties are
GordonD: it's what me and antoine just agreed to look at
next: [LLD. PERSON-NAMES]
rayd: covered in my use case
emma: put in deliverables together with authority data
antoine: and refer from there to
... use cases can be moved into requirements if turns out it was not done
... merge person-names and person-metadata
next: LLD. IDENTIFIERS] is use case
next: [LLD. LEGACY-IDS] is requirement
kcoyle: issue e.g. ISBN for
manifestation; need to give advice
... think about what ID means
TomB: LCSH cite as example
LarsG: related to digital
... can of worms; need reqs or recommendations
GordonD: need to expose it as can of worms
<edsu> mmmm, worms
next: [LLD. NAMESPACES]
TomB: ld principle that URI resolve to representation
antoine: could we refer to webarch?
TomB: part of TBL's four points
LarsG: not particular topic for lld
emma: do we need to address namespace policy?
TomB: yes, libraries should have
persistence policies, and principles for vocab evolution
... can URI be repurposed? can meaning evolve?
kcoyle: issue what do you do with
multiple copies? how do you identify them?
... important part of structure people need to understand; lot in here that people need to understand so that they do proper LD
antoine: nothing library-specific about it
kcoyle: libraries bring up
... library experience should inform web experience
marcia: other communities gathering resources have no clear roadmap
antoine: Europeana experience: for the moment URIs for digital objects are handled quite badly, after a while URIs are dead
... library practice in web context is poor
... we cannot improve that
emma: should say that practice should be better
LarsG: put persistent identification and resolution services into requirements
<antoine> scribe: Michael
emma: Next section: Semantic web
... Group with requirements
... Next: Linking across datasets
... What links to what? Group with inventory of datasets in deliverables
Jeff: People could still use OWl
to show what is being linked without relying on an
... Self-description using OWL without defining new level of properties
emma: Next: Alignment of vocabs
antoine: Related to previous discussions about skos mapping properties
GordonD: Also about mapping
models that are independent of SKOS
... There are different mapping approaches
emma: Next: Alignment of
... Environmental issue
Antoine: Put into cases for
... Bernard might investigate
RayD: about alignment or assignment?
antoine: Relating library authority file concepts to identifiers for the real thing
kcoyle: What is meant with
... Bringing together if there is more than one?
TomB: And specifying realtionship between them
emma: Next one: The Linked Data
paradigm and the Metadata Record paradigm
... Models for packaging Linked Data in records, e.g., Named Graphs
... and Provenance of Linked Data
Jeff: Mikael's email indicates a
lot of tension between metadata models and domain models.
... Lot of confusion between these paradigms
ACTION: Tom to re-categorize AGRIS under Bibliographic Data. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action02]
Jeff: How can we help people to think in these paradigms?
kcoyle: Educational vs. proof of
concept. These are two different goals.
... Can we create the data we want to create without using the records paradigm.
John: I don't think we can create
data in absence of a record model.
... Creation, dissemination, and consumption.
... Latter two can happen without record. First one cannot.
antoine: Some of the choices
about the right URI in LD look like record building.
... Even on the basic level about which triples you send out.
<antoine> packaging in linked data dissemination context -> http://www.w3.org/Submission/CBD/
marcia: Do you mean the presence of an application profile at the time of creation
Diane: Can we use aggregated view instead of record view?
GordonD: Catalogers create a package of descriptions.
Diane: We need to carefully
examine those assumptions.
... Catalogers don't start from nothing and arrive at something that they consider complete.
GordonD: Rarely info in record is
created from scratch
... Reliance on external authority and other sources
Marcia: From the abstract model a record is an aggregate of other description sets.
?: But, if things are added, can this info be consumed back into your aggregated set?
GordonD: Triples will be out
there. Aggregation will happen on the fly.
... Moving to a "post-coordinated" approach.
emma: We have to cut here
... It is in the requirements.
kcoyle: It is an requirement. Not specific to LLD.
antoine: We can put it in the use case and probably look at the work of the provenance task group.
emma: We can extract some requirements if we put it in the use case category.
Kai: Strongly related to the record / description set issue.
emma: Next: REST patterns for Linked Data
Jeff: Based on OWL, there is a
one-to-many relationship between things
... This should be visible in the URI patterns.
... So they become hackable and provide for content-negotion
... All the way back to real-world objects
<TomB> Jeff: URIs can be made hackable. I like using generic resources. As you hack back, go from representation to generic resource. Hack back on the slash, go back to... etc etc
emma: Is related to best practice for indentifiers.
<TomB> Michael: This can be visualized in one slide.
antoine: This belongs to [SW-Identifier]
TomB: Best practice or research?
antoine: Best practice, comparable to best practice document for eGovernment
Jeff: Sometimes wrong URI
patterns limit your choices, eg, for mobile presentation
... We shouldn't have to write one-off systems.
... We shpould create a framework that generates those pattern automatically.
Alexander: Agreed. If we can agree on ID patterns, that would be helpful to others in the community
TomB: I am uneasy about this group saying "we think this is the answer"
edsu: Cool URIs for the semantic web defines the URI patterns just fine - no need to do it again.
Michael: But that is very low-level. Does not deal with relationship between organized knowledge and the world (in detail).
Alex: Do we also consider patterns for modeling data?
Emma: No, it is in application profiles.
Alexander: Patterns not the same
as application profiles.
... Software engineering perspective: things that tell me on a basic level.
emma: Created the topic "patterns" and added it to requirements.
ACTION: Jeff to review the UK eGovernment document on identifiers. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action03]
<edsu> seems like the url for that spec from the UK about URL patterns has moved or been removed, it used to be at http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/cio/chief_technology_officer/public_sector_ia.aspx
<edsu> definitely ironic :-)
<edsu> ahh, here's the new url for it http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/301253/puiblic_sector_uri.pdf
antoine: Jeff to elaborate on the document
emma: Next: Conversion issues, e.g., URIs, content negotiation, RDF compatibility
Kcoyle: Don't know what it means. Very broad.
Antoine: Could we trash it?
... Next: Check if SKOS extensions are needed for describing particular types of KOS (term list, name authority file (not limited to agents and works), digital gazetteer, list of subject headings, taxonomy, thesauri, classification, etc.) and provide SKOSified KOS examples.
... Related to Gordon's and Antoine's UC?
Antone: This is more related to KOS alignment.
Emma: Maybe we have a gap here in
the use cases.
... We need a use case about the appropriateness of SKOS to cover controlled vocabularies in LLD.
Antoine: Some is covered in postponed SKOS issues.
Emma: Should check there.
Antoine: We should put it in the vocabulary section.
Emma: Next: extraction of semantic data
kcoyle: Perhaps Marcia can explain what is meant here
marcia: The original email was about a framework of showing things.
kcoyle: Let's put it in the deliverables so we remember to look at it when we prepare deliverable.s
emma: next: linked data
management, hosting, and preservation
... vocabulary-specific aspects of management, hosting, and presentation
kcoyle: related to discussion about metadata registries. We need use case.
emma: Put it in use case.
... Next: Versioning, updates
kcoyle: Next three go together.
We need a use case for all of them.
... Dissemination mechanisms: RDF schemas, RDFa, bulk download, feeds, SPARQL...
... DCMI-RDA task group would be a great use case.
GordonD: Many issues have surfaced there.
emma: Issues of Web architecture, e.g., persistent URI design best practices, HTTP
Alexander: I don't see pattern as
architecture patterns, more like modeling
... We should tell peoples about our experiences with our modeling.
emma: Should it be a use case?
kcoyle: We can require things
that we don't know how to do.
... It could be a requirement.
emma: Related to "data caching"?
Alexander: Broader context.
... I want to have a library system that is able to deal with linked data together with classical library data
Mark: Does that exist?
Mark: We have that covered in software recommendation.
Alexander: Not so much the issue
what to use, but how to use the tools.
... The IT departments have systems that are going to stay there for a long time.
... We have to come up with ways with doing new stuff with existing infrastructure.
... We are generating LD at runtime. This is not the right approach.
<michaelp> Jeff: I care about that also
Martin: Me also.
michaelp: Perhaps we can do something together
<scribe> ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborabe on general purpose IT archtiecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04]
<antoine> Scribe: Jeff
Ontology discovery and dissemination [DATA. ONTOLOGY-DISCOVERY]
kcoyle: covered in registry part, discovery part, vocabulary, need a way to find ontologies
marcia: difference between vocabularies/ontologies. format-related
kcoyle: different perspectives on
vocabularies: things divided into class, instance, properties,
(ontologies?) vs. different vocabularies naming concepts
... no vocabulary of vocabularies
... need to be clear about what we mean when we use the term "vocabulary"
# Search Engine Optimization for Library Data Google Rich Snippets, Yahoo SearchMonkey, Facbook's OpenGraph Protocol [edsu, jphipps] [DATA. SEARCH-OPTIMISATION]
alexander: seems to be close to architecture topic
antoine: these systems may be able to understand library models in the future
emma: this needs a use case
antoine: Europeana wants to put RDFa in HTML
<edsu> facebook's rdfa has a notion of book, author, movie http://opengraphprotocol.org/
<edsu> also isbn :-)
TomB: is there a role of application profiles in search (e.g. Google)
antoine: if you search Google for a book, you will get a Google Book results near the top. It has special status.
ACTION: Emma and Antoine to create use case DATA.SEARCH-OPTIMIZATION [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action06]
# Licenses, IP, DRM, other availability/rights/access restriction info [antoine, kcoyle, emmanuelle, aseiler] [MGT. LICENSES]
michael: related to provenance and rights discovery
antoine: need common way (RDF) to discover these things
kcoyle: need a use case for provenance and rights
# Workflows or roadmaps for different kinds Linked Data projects [keckert, emmanuelle] [MGT. WORKFLOWS]
# Examples of business models of managing linked library resources (metadata, vocabulary, and KOS resources) [digikim] [MGT. BIZ-MODELS]
# Common patterns in Linked Data, with examples, and with best practices for "Linked Data friendly" output from traditional library data - to provide guidance and save time - maybe several best practices when there are several good ways to solve a problem. [MGT. PATTERNS]
kcoyle: 1&3 have been covered? 2 is new?
Alexander: more concerned with
common software (architecture) patterns
... it's analogous to Java classes (built in classes)
kcoyle: we need library examples that refer to the "free book"
Alexander: What are the patterns that are pecularly useful in Library Linked Data?
Emma: examples of business models. no use cases.
marcia: Somebody needs to manage
Karen: sustainability is essential
kcoyle: ROI isn't necessarily money. it can also be cost savings
antoine: abstract a business model from existing use cases?
marcia: somebody needs to envision patterns of business models
# Need for training and documentation (a Linked Data primer for libraries ?) [gneher, Jschneid4, keckert, digikim, antoine, emmanuelle, aseiler] [MGT. TRAINING]
emma: a UTube video?
... can we deliver training and documentation?
antoine: our report should be readable as a primer
<Marcia> +1 Antoine primer idea
kcoyle: the community needs to commit to education in this area
TomB: do we need to specify the skillset?
kcoyle: a lot of people as that question, but few answers
emma: use cases address this in problems and limitations
# Mapping Linked Data terminology to library terminology and concepts [kcoyle] [MGT. LEGACY-MAPPING]
antoine: can glossary make these connections? http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Library_terminology_informally_explained
TomB: part of training and documentation
antoine: can this be a deliverable
emma: just listing the terms is a hard task
# Liaison with standardisation bodies and initiatives (ISO and national bodies, IFLA, International Council on Archives, CIDOC...) [GordonD, emmanuelle] [MGT. STANDARDS-PARTICIPATION]
kcoyle: it's a big one
TomB: Gordon and IFLA are a good example
gordon: need on going organizational commitments
TomB: we need to have ongoing communication
# Outreach to other communities (archives, museums, publishers, the Web) [Jschneid4, GordonD, antoine] [MGT. OUTREACH]
emma: we do have a use case related to archives
kcoyle: these communities also have "bodies" that can become involved
antoine: identify a list of these communities and keep it up to date
emma: use the people in this group to create connections to there groups
ray: "collaboration" is different from "liaison". Liaison is too hard.
kcoyle: but necessary.
TomB: try to disseminate our results as broadly as possible.
ACTION: on everyone to update the Events page (http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/LLD/Events) on the wiki regularly [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action05]
# How to announce new efforts, build appropriate communities around those efforts, get the right players to the table. [kcoyle] [MGT. NEW-EFFORTS]
emma: it's very general
kcoyle: in the future, make sure we outreach to right people
<paulwalk> Re lldvis: The vocabs are mapped to use cases, but the topics have not yet been mapped at all yet - will do this following today's meeting
emma: group with next steps , new efforts, and future working groups.
<TomB> don't we have a page for linking articles, such as my TWR blog post http://metadaten-twr.org/2010/06/23/new-w3c-incubator-group-on-library-linked-data/?
# pulling in linked data for end users [USE.END_USERS]
# Computational use of library linked data [USE.COMPU]
# Linked data to enhance professional processes or workflows, for librarians, cataloguers, etc. [USE.PRO]
emma: special effort in use cases
to demonstrate these points
... use cases to enhance current practices
antoine: can we make this a deliverable?
emma: need a specific section in
... that's the end of the list
See post meeting cleaning:Outcome of the topics discussion
time for a group photo