W3C

RDF Data Access

26 Jul 2005

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
AndyS, Jeen_Broekstra, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Kendall_Clark, DaveB, DanC, EricP, EliasT, LeeF, Kevin, Jos_De_Roo, Souri
Regrets
Chair
DanC
Scribe
DaveB, EricP

Contents


 

 

Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0120.html

<DanC> Scribe: DaveB

<_> 26 July agenda

<DanC> 19 July minutes

accepted minutes

Next meeting: next week, chair: DanC, scribe: AndyS

actions in section one of the agenda:

<_> ACTION: EricP clarify which regex lang [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<_> ACTION: PatH to review new optionals definitions, if any. [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<_> ACTION: DanC to check after August on SteveH regarding test preparation for publication as WG Note [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<_> ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<_> ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<_> ACTION: EricP to finish extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3 [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<_> ACTION: SteveH to review the relevant test case re: IRI normalization ref http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-minutes#item06 [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<_> ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery) ref http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf5-bos.html#item05 [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

ISSUE resultsMimeType

comment from july 2004

ref to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0116.html

<_> IANA mime type registration for "application/sparql-results+xml"

<kendall> is ".srf" better?

<DanC> AndyS: seems OK, though I found one conflict with ".srq"

<kendall> where "better" == "no conflicts"

<kendall> I'm a little bit leery of this conflict w/ some sql systems, but it's not a big deal.

<DanC> (I was thinking .sqr )

<db-scr> Souri arrivesi

<db-scr> DanC - add it to the result draft and get reviewers

<DanC> Scribe: EricP

<scribe> ACTION: DaveB to add mime type to results format [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<AndyS> A Google search for filetype:sqr gave no returns

<scribe> ACTION: EliasT to review XML Results mime-type registration [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<scribe> ACTION: DanC to review XML Results mime-type registration [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<DaveB> it's only 134 words...

<DaveB> lines

<JosD> found http://filext.com/detaillist.php?extdetail=SRQ and should mean "Unprocessed Microsoft Server Request"

<DanC> 4ish

straw poll: who wants to resolve XML Results mime-type today?

0 want to delay

PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/mime.txt (delegating choice of file extension to the editor) addresses issue resultsMimeType, contingent on review by Elias

RESOLVED, OBJECTIONS: 0, ABSENTIONS: 0

<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note impact on protocol examples

<DanC> ACTION: KendallC to update protocol spec w.r.t. results mime type [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

SPARQL results namespace name

<DanC> How about changing sparqlResults to

<DanC> http://www.w3.org/2005/sparql-results

<DaveB> cvs 1.45 of rf1 now has mime type section 5

<kendall> I prefer dash to camel case, but don't care about the month droppage.

DanC: Bjoern: '-' separated namespaces are easier for javascript coders than camel case.
... ... also '-' separated namespaces are more consistent with other W3C namespaces

7-ish prefer '-'

<DanC> PROPOSED: to change the namespace name to http://www.w3.org/2005/sparql-results (and update rf1 and rq23)

OBJECTIONS: 0

ABSENTIONS: 0

RESOLVED

<kendall> ACTION: KendallC to Check whether the results namespace is in protocol draft; if so, update. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<scribe> ACTION: AndyS to fix rq23 to reflect new results namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<scribe> ACTION: EricP to ask for namespace approval and put a document there [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<DanC> ACTION: DaveB to update rf1 with new namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<DanC> resolution is contingent on director's approval

<DaveB> rf1 cvs 1.46 now has the new namespace

EliasT: atom [#-]-less namespace is ugly when concatonated

DanC: i know of no intention to use with RDF

<DanC> (in irc, who prefers http://www.w3.org/2005/sparql-results# ? )

<kendall> i prefer # to bare "sparql-results"

who prefers a hash?: 3 or 4

who's prefers none?: 0

<DanC> PROPOSED: to change the namespace name to http://www.w3.org/2005/sparql-results# (and update rf1 and rq23)

<DanC> RESOLVED, JeenB abstaining

ABSTENTIONS: jeen

SPARQL results publication

<scribe> ACTION: DaveB integrate advice on ordered and distinct and propose last call candidate for results set spec [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<DanC> proposal

<_> ACTION: LeeF, SteveH and Jeen to review XML results set format [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<_> Jeen's review

<_> Lee's review

<_> Steve's review, "Modulo Lee's outstanding points, its fine."

DanC: DaveB has integrated ordering and limits

LeeF: i *think* all outstanding points have been addressed

DanC: I imagine a test case with an attribute from a randing namespace

DaveB: text says "this element here, and there are these attribtutes there" but the schemas could be normative (striking the caveat "these are informative " sentence)

<DanC> "Normativeness of the XML schemas. Pick one?"

<kendall> (I'm planning to use the RelaxNG one in my web framework to validate XML stored in a db...FWIW)

<LeeF> similarly, we have as of yet uncoded plans that will likely use the XML schema

DanC: who wants to make the XSD schema normative?

around 6

<DanC> PROPOSED: to note that the .xsd is derived from the .rng (and therefore, as far as we know, they mean the same thing) and make them both normative

<howardk> daveb: did you get my original email posted to the group?

<DanC> so RESOLVED

DanC: is there a term for "SPARQL Results Format document"?

<kendall> "serialized result set"?

DaveB: could add to section 1 or 2

<DanC> "sparql results document"

<DanC> ACTION: DaveB to choose a term [for "sparql results document"] and define it [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<kendall> I'm happy following Dave's lead here.

<kendall> ACTION: KendallC to use Dave's name for a results set doc in the protocol draft... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

DanC: i can now test an instance with a schema validator
... i can now test an instance with a schema validator
... yes or no, take the XML Results Format + actioned cahnges to last call
... LC to end at the same time as SPARQL Query

all are happy with it

<DanC> PROPOSED: to take v1.46 + edits per actions today (plus SOTD) to last call.

<DanC> RESOLVED. Action EricP

<DanC> critical path people are: Dave, DanC, EliasT, EricP

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to publish rf1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

Experience with SPARQL/P/SOAP/Axis Seaborne

kendall: worried about optimizing for one particular tool (Axis)

AndyS: have eliminated all Axis-isms

<DanC> ACTION: KendallC to add POST binding to protocol doc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

kendall: post binding is number one on my protocol doc list

<DanC> ("'patch' is invoved making the xsd from relaxng..."? hmm.)

<DanC> ACTION: KendallC to consider flattening rdf-dataset a la http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0087.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

kendall: I added rdf-dataset only to mirror the prose

<EliasT> re: xsd/relaxng patch. Does it matter if both are independently normative?

SPARQL QL last call comments

<kendall> AndyS: Sorry to have not ACK'd publicly on that message. It's useful, I just lost track of it.

<DanC> ACTION: DanC to investigate having CVS commits send to the WG list [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<scribe> ACTION: DanC to write SOTD; work with EricP to publish [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<DanC> SPARQL Query Last Call

<AndyS> Kendall - no problem

DanC: I asked sysreq to do it. they said "done". i haven't seen it work

<kendall> AndyS: yr point 2/ is also on my TODO list already, so ACK that. I'll think about 3/ & 4/

DanC: we now have 4 open issues (from the comments)

<kendall> (My only comment about 5/ is that I wish we had xml serialization of queries so we could POST *that*, but -shrug-)

<AndyS> Err - that's different - I'm asking for a POST HTML form

DanC: editorial comments included ref to ABNF

<DanC> ACTION: DaveB respond to "sparqlResults namespace" comment http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0039.html , after rq23 is updated [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

DanC: we owe Bjoern an "are you happy?" response

<kendall> AndyS: well, yes, gotcha. We have to POST something, and the only thing we can post now, since it's the only thing we have predefined, is application/x-www-form-urlencoded.

<DanC> I'm noodling on distinguishing "are you happy?" responses

DanC later suggested the prefix [OK?], [CLOSED] indicates an ack to an "are you satisfied" ack

DanC: WG members are welcome to act on any comment by proposing text to the editor via the WG
... some prefix will indicate a request to close

<AndyS> I just want an HTML forms interface!

<kendall> i don't want one. i guess i was suggesting that if we define a way to post stuff, people can do that from HTML forms or from some kind of automated client. i care about the latter, you care about the former. i don't see a problem?

<AndyS> Quite hard to POST XML from HTML forms :-) without javascript.

<LeeF> So, application/x-www-form-urlencoded.is fine then, right, AndyS?

<LeeF> I don't think the two of you are disagreeing.

<kendall> i was explicitly agreeing, actually. i guess not explicit enough.

<AndyS> LeeF : yes

<AndyS> Thought you were wanting XML in plain HTTP.

<kendall> nope. (well, yes, i said i do want that, but then I said application/x-www-form-urlencoded was good enough for now. :>)

BASE IRI resolution

[DanC summarizes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0096]

AndyS: I use java.net.uri . i don't think it does normalization.

<DanC> PROPOSED: to add clarify SPARQL QL spec about base IRI normalization and add tests as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0096.html

RESOLVED, OBJECTIONS: 0, ABSTENTIONS: 0

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to add "don't normalize" to rq23 (perhaps supplied in 0096) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to send [OK?] message to Bjoern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0042.html Bjoern Hoehrmann

<scribe> ACTION: EricP to add test in 0096 to rq23 tests. label "approved" and ref this meeting record. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

Issue queryMimeType, "External Storage of Queries"

<DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/mime.txt

<DanC> "application/sparql"

<kendall> My only concern here is making it possible in the future to have an XML serialization of SPARQL queries. Err, I mean, not making it not possible.

<AndyS> text/ ?

<DanC> mime.txt,v 1.2 2005/07/25 15:41:27

<AndyS> UTF-8 vs UTF-16?

<DaveB> no, not text/

<DaveB> then you *do* get into charset issues

<kendall> (Hmm, I guess my concern is moot, thinking about it some more.)

<kendall> I'd prefer "application/sparql-query" to "application/sparql", I think. More specific, more clear.

<kendall> Also symmetric with "sparql-results"

<LeeF> +1 kendall's suggestion

<howardk> +1 as well

<EliasT> +1

<EliasT> file extension? .sq?

<EliasT> as opposed to ".rq"

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/mime.txt application/sparql-query mime-type registration

<kendall> ACTION: KendallC to add security considerations section to proto draft, under 4. Policy... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

mime.txt updated, @@'s added

<kendall> Is ".rq" the conventional extension for RDQL queries?

<LeeF> rq = "RDF query" presumably?

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to update rq23 to include the text of rq23/mime.txt reflect security concearns [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]

<AndyS> We use that in the test suite

<kendall> cool; just wondering

<DaveB> yes all our tests are .rq

issue valueTesting: optional and error cases

<AndyS> It's not in obvious use elsewhere (strangely)

<kendall> i find it a tiny bit confusing, but not a big deal.

<DanC> "SPARQL defines a set of functions & operations (sections 11.1 and 11.2) that all implementations must provide."

<kendall> +1 to DanC's point

<kendall> though I'd slice up the core differently, I think. I don't want to be required to implement all those Fs&Os to be a sparql processor. Am I the only one?

<DanC> DanC: as I wrote earlier, I prefer not to refer to "implementations" at all in the QL spec; I prefer to specify languages, e.g. Core Sparql and extended sparql

11.2.4 Extensible Value Testing

kendall: I don't want to have to implement all (for instance, dates)

<kendall> I *may* just be pointlessly whining here!

kendall: of the functions and operators
... i'd like the core to be smaller

<DanC> AndyS: if dates are not core, < might not work on them

<AndyS> Integers are harder than dates!

<kendall> but i have clients for integers :>

<howardk> serious andy?

Kendall: dates and strings probably aren't that much work. don't want to make a big deal of it.

<jeen> as a data point: we recently received a code contribution in Sesame for supporting dates. it took the coder about a week to implement (that is, including getting familiar with the sesame code base).

<AndyS> Type promotion needs to be done. 1.5 > 2^^xsd:byte

<DanC> FILTER func:even(?id)

<DanC> 11.2.4 Extensible Value Testing

<AndyS> I used the Xerces code (via Dave Reynolds wrappers) for date comparision, If you have a library, its easy, if not, it is long.

<howardk> right

<AndyS> (I was picky and wanted timezone to be preserved - that was my value add - Xerces turns all to Z)

<kendall> or if you have a library and there is semantic mismatch, but -shrug-

<DanC> bug: (section 11.3)

<DanC> " there is an extension mechanism (section 11.3)"

<DanC> (I recommend you use XSLT to make/check your xrefs)

<kendall> it's pretty much 90 minutes, FYI

<DanC> ACTION EricP/Andy: revise rq23 to remove reference to implementations/engines (e.g. 3.3 Value Constraints -- Definition )

<DaveB> the rf1 abstract also uses impl

<DaveB> uhoh, I gotta go rsn

<DanC> ADJOURN.

<kendall> thx

<DaveB> seems .srx isn't used according to filext.com

<DaveB> or file-ext.com

<DanC> (looking at http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2234.html )

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: AndyS to fix rq23 to reflect new results namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: DanC to review XML Results mime-type registration [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: DaveB respond to "sparqlResults namespace" comment http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0039.html , after rq23 is updated [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: DaveB to add mime type to results format [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: DaveB to choose a term [for "sparql results document"] and define it [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: DaveB to update rf1 with new namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: EliasT to review XML Results mime-type registration [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: ericP to add "don't normalize" to rq23 (perhaps supplied in 0096) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: EricP to add test in 0096 to rq23 tests. label "approved" and ref this meeting record. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: EricP to ask for namespace approval and put a document there [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: ericP to publish rf1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: ericP to send [OK?] message to Bjoern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: ericP to update rq23 to include the text of rq23/mime.txt reflect security concearns [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: KendallC to add POST binding to protocol doc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: KendallC to add security considerations section to proto draft, under 4. Policy... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: KendallC to Check whether the results namespace is in protocol draft; if so, update. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: KendallC to consider flattening rdf-dataset a la http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0087.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: KendallC to update protocol spec w.r.t. results mime type [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: KendallC to use Dave's name for a results set doc in the protocol draft... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery) ref http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf5-bos.html#item05 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: DanC to check after August on SteveH regarding test preparation for publication as WG Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: DanC to investigate having CVS commits send to the WG list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: EricP to finish extendedType-eq-pass-result.n3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: SteveH to review the relevant test case re: IRI normalization ref http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-minutes#item06 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
 
[DONE] ACTION: DanC to write SOTD; work with EricP to publish [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[DONE] ACTION: DaveB integrate advice on ordered and distinct and propose last call candidate for results set spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[DONE] ACTION: EricP clarify which regex lang [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[DONE] ACTION: LeeF, SteveH and Jeen to review XML results set format [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
[DONE] ACTION: PatH to review new optionals definitions, if any. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-dawg-irc]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2005/08/01 15:34:54 $