IRC log of dawg on 2005-07-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:25:42 [RRSAgent]
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14:25:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:26:11 [DanC]
14:26:20 [DanC]
Meeting: RDF Data Access
14:26:38 [HiroyukiS]
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14:26:40 [jeen]
14:27:49 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started
14:27:56 [Zakim]
14:27:59 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P0 is AndyS
14:27:59 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:28:29 [Zakim]
14:28:33 [LeeF]
zakim, I am [IBMCambridge]
14:28:33 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF, I now associate you with [IBMCambridge]
14:28:38 [Zakim]
14:28:41 [DaveB]
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14:29:05 [Zakim]
14:29:08 [Zakim]
14:29:24 [howardk]
hi dave. did you get that last email?
14:29:32 [HiroyukiS]
Zakim, ??P26 is HiroyukiS
14:29:32 [Zakim]
+HiroyukiS; got it
14:29:37 [Zakim]
14:29:57 [Zakim]
14:30:02 [DaveB]
Zakim, ??P28 is DaveB
14:30:02 [Zakim]
+DaveB; got it
14:30:13 [EliasT]
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14:31:17 [kendall]
ah, i just came back from JPL in LA -- got excellent tourage of vehicle assembly areas, robotics, etc.
14:31:20 [kendall]
very cool
14:31:29 [Zakim]
14:31:52 [LeeF]
That's excellent, kendall
14:32:00 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
14:32:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:32:18 [kendall]
we gave a 3 day semweb workshop for nasa/jplers... was very productive
14:32:30 [Zakim]
14:32:50 [Zakim]
14:32:54 [Zakim]
14:33:05 [EliasT]
Zakim, IBMCambridge.a is EliasT
14:33:05 [Zakim]
+EliasT; got it
14:33:43 [DanC]
Zakim, list attendees
14:33:43 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, [IBMCambridge], Jeen_Broekstra, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Kendall_Clark, DaveB, DanC, EricP, EliasT
14:33:48 [DaveB]
DaveB scribe
14:33:57 [LeeF]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is temporarily LeeF
14:33:57 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:34:17 [DaveB]
note EricP is not actually here (yet)
14:34:19 [DanC]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:34:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, Jeen_Broekstra, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Kendall_Clark, DaveB, DanC, EliasT
14:34:39 [DanC]
Scribe: DaveB
14:34:57 [DanC]
-> 19 July minutes
14:35:06 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:35:06 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:35:09 [DaveB]
accepted miknutes
14:35:11 [Zakim]
14:35:23 [Zakim]
14:35:29 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:35:29 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Kevin
14:35:32 [JosD]
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14:35:38 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:35:38 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AndyS
14:35:57 [DaveB]
scribe next week AndyS
14:36:10 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:36:10 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:36:23 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:36:23 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "ISSUE resultsMimeType" taken up [from DanC]
14:36:45 [DaveB]
actions in item1 same status
14:36:58 [DaveB]
comment from july 2004
14:37:13 [DanC]
14:37:22 [DaveB]
in rf1/mime.txt
14:37:23 [KevinW]
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14:38:10 [DaveB]
result format
14:38:21 [DaveB]
mime type, why not?
14:40:02 [db-scr]
ref to
14:40:18 [db-scr]
14:40:37 [kendall]
14:41:42 [kendall]
is ".srf" better?
14:41:50 [DanC]
AndyS: seems OK, though I found one conflict with ".srq"
14:41:59 [Zakim]
14:42:04 [kendall]
where "better" == "no conflicts"
14:42:21 [kendall]
I'm a little bit leery of this conflict w/ some sql systems, but it's not a big deal.
14:43:02 [DanC]
q+ to note impact on protocol examples
14:43:29 [DanC]
(I was thinking .sqr )
14:43:59 [Zakim]
14:44:15 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P30 is Souri
14:44:15 [Zakim]
+Souri; got it
14:44:16 [db-scr]
Souri arrivesi
14:44:40 [db-scr]
DanC - add it to the result draft and get reviewers
14:45:04 [DanC]
Scribe: EricP
14:45:56 [ericP]
ACTION DaveB: add mime type to results format
14:46:18 [AndyS]
A Google search for filetype:sqr gave no returns
14:46:33 [ericP]
ACTION EliasT: review XML Results mime-type registration
14:46:41 [ericP]
ACTION DanC: review XML Results mime-type registration
14:46:44 [DaveB]
it's only 134 words...
14:46:53 [DaveB]
14:46:59 [JosD]
found and should mean "Unprocessed Microsoft Server Request"
14:47:01 [DanC]
14:47:18 [ericP]
straw poll: who wants to resolve XML Results mime-type today
14:47:26 [ericP]
0 want to dealy
14:47:33 [kendall]
Is this w/ freedom to fiddle the extension string, Dan?
14:47:34 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that addresses issue resultsMimeType, contingent on review by Elias
14:49:06 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that (delegating choice of file extension to the editor) addresses issue resultsMimeType, contingent on review by Elias
14:49:11 [kendall]
14:49:29 [ericP]
14:49:30 [DanC]
14:49:33 [DanC]
ack danc
14:49:33 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to note impact on protocol examples
14:49:38 [ericP]
14:50:04 [DanC]
ACTION KendallC: update protocol spec w.r.t. results mime type
14:50:22 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:50:22 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "SPARQL results namespace name" taken up [from DanC]
14:50:44 [DanC]
How about changing sparqlResults to
14:50:44 [DanC]
14:50:49 [DaveB]
cvs 1.45 of rf1 now has mime type section 5
14:51:50 [kendall]
I prefer dash to camel case, but don't care about the month droppage.
14:51:53 [ericP]
DanC: Bjorne: '-' separated namespaces are easier for javascript coders than camel case.
14:52:23 [ericP]
... ... also '-' separated namespaces are more consistent with other W3C namespaces
14:52:58 [ericP]
7-ish prefer '-'
14:53:09 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to change the namespace name to (and update rf1 and rq23)
14:53:20 [ericP]
14:53:25 [ericP]
14:53:28 [ericP]
14:53:48 [kendall]
ACTION KendallC: Check whether the results namespace is in protocol draft; if so, update.
14:54:18 [ericP]
ACTION AndyS: fix rq23 to reflect new results namespace
14:54:46 [ericP]
ACTION EricP: ask for namespace approval and put a document there
14:54:48 [DanC]
ACTION DaveB: update rf1 with new namespace
14:55:05 [DanC]
resolution is contingent on director's approval
14:55:45 [DaveB]
rfc cvs 1.46 now has the new namespace
14:55:49 [DaveB]
14:55:50 [ericP]
EliasT, atom [#-]-less namespace is ugly when concatonated
14:56:08 [ericP]
DanC, i know of no intention to use with RDF
14:57:21 [DanC]
(in irc, who prefers ? )
14:57:38 [kendall]
i prefer # to bare "sparql-results"
14:58:24 [ericP]
who prefers a hash: 3 or 4
14:58:37 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to change the namespace name to (and update rf1 and rq23)
14:58:42 [ericP]
who's prefers none? 0
14:58:44 [kendall]
cheaper to change now than at any other point ever again :>
14:59:08 [DanC]
RESOLVED, JeenB abstaining
14:59:09 [ericP]
14:59:18 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:59:18 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "SPARQL results publication" taken up [from DanC]
15:00:05 [ericP]
DanC, DaveB has integrated ordering and limits
15:00:20 [ericP]
LeeF, i *think* all outstanding points have been addressed
15:01:11 [ericP]
DanC, I imagine a test case with an attribute from a randing namespace
15:02:10 [ericP]
DaveB, text says "this element here, and there are these attribtutes there" but the schemas could be normative (striking the caveat "these are informative " sentence)
15:02:54 [DanC]
"Normativeness of the XML schemas. Pick one?"
15:03:10 [kendall]
(I'm planning to use the RelaxNG one in my web framework to validate XML stored in a db...FWIW)
15:03:19 [kendall]
(But tht
15:03:29 [kendall]
erp,... (That's only a plan right now, not yet coded.0
15:04:04 [LeeF]
similarly, we have as of yet uncoded plans that will likely use the WSDL :)
15:04:48 [LeeF]
err, XML schema
15:04:53 [LeeF]
silly me
15:05:18 [ericP]
DanC, who wants to make the XSD schema normative?
15:05:26 [ericP]
around 6
15:05:30 [kendall]
I think XSD is a bad idea, but that's a different point. :>
15:05:49 [ericP]
15:06:20 [ericP]
(that is, i preferr RNG for most jobs)
15:06:29 [kendall]
explicit better than implicit. :>
15:06:32 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to note that the .xsd is derived from the .rng and make them both normative
15:06:56 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to note that the .xsd is derived from the .rng (and therefore, as far as we know, they mean the same thing) and make them both normative
15:07:43 [howardk]
daveb: did you get my original email posted to the group?
15:07:46 [DanC]
15:08:14 [ericP]
DanC, is there a term for "SPARQL Results Format document"?
15:08:42 [kendall]
"serialized result set"?
15:08:42 [ericP]
DaveB: could add to section 1 or 2
15:09:20 [DanC]
"sparql results document"
15:09:36 [DanC]
ACTION DaveB: to choose a term and define it
15:09:51 [kendall]
I'm happy following Dave's lead here.
15:10:31 [kendall]
ACTION KendallC: to use Dave's name for a results set doc in the protocol draft...
15:10:42 [ericP]
DanC, i can now test an instance with a schema validator
15:10:54 [ericP]
DanC: i can now test an instance with a schema validator
15:11:04 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:11:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, Jeen_Broekstra, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Kendall_Clark, DaveB, DanC, EliasT, Kevin, Jos_De_Roo, EricP, Souri
15:11:35 [ericP]
DanC: yes or no, take the XML Results Format + actioned cahnges to last call
15:11:53 [ericP]
... LC to end at the same time as SPARQL Query
15:12:16 [ericP]
all are happy with it
15:12:42 [SteveH]
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15:12:48 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to take v1.46 + edits per actions today (plus SOTD) to last call.
15:14:17 [DanC]
RESOLVED. Action EricP
15:14:35 [DanC]
critical path people are: Dave, DanC, EliasT, EricP
15:14:36 [ericP]
ACTION ericP: publish rf1
15:14:51 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:14:51 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Experience with SPARQL/P/SOAP/Axis Seaborne" taken up [from DanC]
15:16:38 [ericP]
kendall: worried about optimizing for one particular tool (Axis)
15:16:59 [ericP]
AndyS: have eliminated all Axis-isms
15:17:24 [DanC]
ACTION KendallC: add POST binding to protocol doc
15:17:31 [ericP]
kendall: post binding is number one on my protocol doc list
15:18:32 [DanC]
("'patch' is invoved making the xsd from relaxng..."? hmm.)
15:19:03 [DanC]
ACTION KendallC: consider flattening rdf-dataset a la
15:19:12 [ericP]
kendall: I added rdf-dataset only to mirror the prose
15:19:34 [kendall]
sorry, bad connection
15:19:54 [EliasT]
re: xsd/relaxng patch. Does it matter if both are independently normative?
15:20:04 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:20:04 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "SPARQL QL last call comments" taken up [from DanC]
15:20:22 [kendall]
AndyS: Sorry to have not ACK'd publicly on that message. It's useful, I just lost track of it.
15:20:41 [DanC]
ACTION: DanC to investigate having CVS commits send to the WG list [continues]
15:20:45 [AndyS]
Kendall - no problem
15:21:01 [ericP]
DanC: I asked sysreq to do it. they said "done". i haven't seen it work
15:21:35 [kendall]
AndyS: yr point 2/ is also on my TODO list already, so ACK that. I'll think about 3/ & 4/
15:21:59 [ericP]
DanC: we now have 4 open issues (from the comments)
15:22:12 [kendall]
(My only comment about 5/ is that I wish we had xml serialization of queries so we could POST *that*, but -shrug-)
15:22:52 [AndyS]
Err - that's different - I'm asking for a POST HTML form
15:22:58 [ericP]
... editorial comments included ref to ABNF
15:23:38 [DanC]
ACTION: DaveB respond to "sparqlResults namespace" comment , after rq23 is updated
15:24:21 [ericP]
DanC: we owe Bjourn an "are you happy?" response
15:24:53 [kendall]
AndyS: well, yes, gotcha. We have to POST something, and the only thing we can post now, since it's the only thing we have predefined, is application/x-www-form-urlencoded.
15:25:15 [DanC]
(I'm noodling on distinguishing "are you happy?" responses)\
15:25:54 [ericP]
[CLOSE?] ?
15:26:14 [AndyS]
I just want an HTML forms interface!
15:26:55 [ericP]
DanC: WG members are welcome to act on any comment
15:27:03 [DanC]
... by proposing text to the editor via the WG
15:27:06 [ericP]
... some prefix will indicate a request to close
15:27:36 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:27:36 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "BASE IRI resolution" taken up [from DanC]
15:27:40 [kendall]
i don't want one. i guess i was suggesting that if we define a way to post stuff, people can do that from HTML forms or from some kind of automated client. i care about the latter, you care about the former. i don't see a problem?
15:28:02 [ericP]
... [CLOSED] indicates an ack to an "are you satisfied" ack
15:28:47 [AndyS]
Quite hard to POST XML from HTML forms :-) without javascript.
15:29:13 [LeeF]
So, application/ fine then, right, AndyS?
15:29:26 [ericP]
[DanC summarizes]
15:29:32 [LeeF]
I don't think the two of you are disagreeing.
15:29:47 [kendall]
i was explicitly agreeing, actually. i guess not explicit enough.
15:29:51 [AndyS]
LeeF : yes
15:30:35 [AndyS]
Thought you were wanting XML in plain HTTP.
15:31:01 [ericP]
ACTION EricP: add test case in 0096 to test cases
15:31:23 [kendall]
nope. (well, yes, i said i do want that, but then I said application/x-www-form-urlencoded was good enough for now. :>)
15:32:33 [ericP]
AndyS: I use . i don't think it does normalization.
15:32:49 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:32:49 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:33:10 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to add clarify SPARQL QL spec about base IRI normalization and add tests as per
15:33:23 [ericP]
action -16
15:33:28 [ericP]
ACTION EricP: add test case in 0096 to tests
15:33:46 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:33:46 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:33:48 [ericP]
15:34:31 [ericP]
ACTION ericP: add "don't normalize" to rq23 (perhaps supplied in 0096)
15:35:06 [ericP]
ACTION ericP: send [SATISFIED?] message to Bjourne
15:35:14 [DanC] Bjoern Hoehrmann
15:35:32 [kendall]
ironic from someone so careful about strings :>
15:35:55 [ericP]
action -17
15:36:24 [ericP]
ACTION EricP: add test in 0096 to rq23 tests. label "approved" and ref this meeting record.
15:36:25 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:36:25 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Issue queryMimeType, "External Storage of Queries"" taken up [from DanC]
15:36:59 [DanC]
15:37:14 [DanC]
15:37:50 [kendall]
My only concern here is making it possible in the future to have an XML serialization of SPARQL queries. Err, I mean, not making it not possible.
15:38:00 [AndyS]
text/ ?
15:38:36 [DanC]
mime.txt,v 1.2 2005/07/25 15:41:27
15:38:45 [AndyS]
UTF-8 vs UTF-16?
15:39:05 [DaveB]
no, not text/
15:39:28 [DaveB]
then you *do* get into charset issues
15:39:56 [kendall]
(Hmm, I guess my concern is moot, thinking about it some more.)
15:40:42 [kendall]
I'd prefer "application/sparql-query" to "application/sparql", I think. More specific, more clear.
15:40:54 [kendall]
Also symmetric with "sparql-results"
15:41:07 [LeeF]
+1 kendall's suggestion
15:42:40 [howardk]
+1 as well
15:42:49 [EliasT]
15:44:45 [EliasT]
file extension? .sq?
15:45:02 [EliasT]
as opposed to ".rq"
15:45:58 [ericP]
-> application/sparql-query mime-type registration
15:46:06 [kendall]
ACTION KendallC: to add security considerations section to proto draft, under 4. Policy...
15:46:09 [ericP]
mime.txt updated, @@'s added
15:47:00 [kendall]
Is ".rq" the conventional extension for RDQL queries?
15:47:13 [LeeF]
rq = "RDF query" presumably?
15:47:24 [ericP]
ACTION ericP: update rq23 to include the text of rq23/mime.txt reflect security concearns
15:47:26 [AndyS]
We use that in the test suite
15:47:34 [kendall]
cool; just wondering
15:47:37 [DaveB]
yes all our tests are .rq
15:47:44 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:47:44 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "issue valueTesting: optional and error cases" taken up [from DanC]
15:47:51 [AndyS]
It's not in obvious use elsewhere (strangely)
15:48:13 [kendall]
i find it a tiny bit confusing, but not a big deal.
15:48:29 [DanC]
"SPARQL defines a set of functions & operations (sections 11.1 and 11.2) that all implementations must provide."
15:49:04 [kendall]
+1 to DanC's point
15:49:30 [kendall]
though I'd slice up the core differently, I think. I don't want to be required to implement all those Fs&Os to be a sparql processor. Am I the only one?
15:49:34 [DanC]
DanC: as I wrote earlier, I prefer not to refer to "implementations" at all in the QL spec; I prefer to specify languages, e.g. Core Sparql and extended sparql
15:50:27 [ericP]
11.2.4 Extensible Value Testing
15:51:00 [ericP]
kendall: I don't want to have to implement all (for instance, dates)
15:51:11 [kendall]
I *may* just be pointlessly whining here!
15:51:11 [ericP]
... of the functions and operators
15:52:04 [ericP]
... i'd like the core to be smaller
15:53:48 [DanC]
AndyS: if dates are not core, < might not work on them
15:55:06 [AndyS]
Integers are harder than dates!
15:55:16 [kendall]
but i have clients for integers :>
15:55:21 [howardk]
serious andy?
15:55:24 [ericP]
Kendall: dates and strings probably aren't that much work. don't want to make a big deal of it.
15:56:03 [jeen]
as a data point: we recently received a code contribution in Sesame for supporting dates. it took the coder about a week to implement (that is, including getting familiar with the sesame code base).
15:56:07 [AndyS]
Type promotion needs to be done. 1.5 > 2^^xsd:byte
15:56:28 [DanC]
FILTER func:even(?id)
15:57:17 [DanC]
11.2.4 Extensible Value Testing
15:57:18 [AndyS]
I used the Xerces code (via Dave Reynolds wrappers) for date comparision, If you have a library, its easy, if not, it is long.
15:57:29 [howardk]
15:57:58 [AndyS]
(I was picky and wanted timezone to be preserved - that was my value add - Xerces turns all to Z)
15:58:03 [kendall]
or if you have a library and there is semantic mismatch, but -shrug-
15:59:38 [DanC]
bug: (section 11.3)
15:59:50 [DanC]
" there is an extension mechanism (section 11.3)"
16:00:17 [DanC]
(I recommend you use XSLT to make/check your xrefs)
16:01:48 [kendall]
it's pretty much 90 minutes, FYI
16:02:14 [DanC]
ACTION EricP/Andy: revise rq23 to remove reference to implementations/engines (e.g. 3.3 Value Constraints – Definition )
16:02:36 [DaveB]
the rf1 abstract also uses impl
16:02:52 [DaveB]
uhoh, I gotta go rsn
16:03:01 [DanC]
16:03:23 [DanC]
Zakim, close this agendum
16:03:23 [Zakim]
agendum 9 closed
16:03:24 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:03:25 [Zakim]
10. issue badIRIRef [from DanC]
16:03:30 [DanC]
16:03:30 [kendall]
16:03:31 [Zakim]
16:03:38 [Zakim]
16:03:46 [Zakim]
16:03:48 [Zakim]
16:03:50 [Zakim]
16:03:56 [Zakim]
16:04:32 [Zakim]
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16:07:22 [DaveB]
DaveB has joined #dawg
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16:13:39 [DaveB]
seems .srx isn't used according to
16:14:12 [DaveB]
16:14:50 [Zakim]
16:17:55 [DanC]
(looking at )
16:20:03 [Zakim]
16:20:04 [Zakim]
16:20:05 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
16:20:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were AndyS, Jeen_Broekstra, HowardK, HiroyukiS, Kendall_Clark, DaveB, DanC, EricP, EliasT, LeeF, Kevin, Jos_De_Roo, Souri
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