W3C . RDF Data Access WG

RDF Data Access Weekly Telcon

28 Jun 2005


AndyS, DanC, DaveB, Eric, Jeen_Broekstra, Kendall_Clark, KevinW, PatH, Souri, SteveH, Yoshio, ericP,
KendallC + EricP + DanC


  1. Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
  2. Next ftf?
  4. syntax-qname-08-rq and syntax-qname-14-rq
  5. IRI normalization
  6. Refining Optionals
  7. solution modifiers & construct/describe
  8. COUNT requirement?
  9. SPARQL QL publication

See also: IRC log, proposed agenda

Convene, take roll, review records and agenda

scribe: KendallC + EricP

RESOLVED to approve minutes 7 Jun , minutes 14 Jun

Regrets (partial): HowardK

RESOLVED to meet again 5 Jul per regular schedule; EricP to scribe

Note: 4 July is a holiday in the US.

Next ftf?

There is an offer to host in BRS, from HP for most (but not all) of the weeks in August

<DaveB> I like brs in august :)

<Yoshio> in which week of August?

<kendall> I'll be in Houston for some 7 to 10 day stretch during August, but I'll try to avoid overlap with f2f.

<ericP> ericP +1 to BRS in august in the range of 8-Aug - 18-Aug

note HP offer again.

Chair suffers ennui, capitulates for now. :>


public-rdf-dawg-comments archive

DanC has a long outstanding comment re: INSERT...

discussion of blank node comments

syntax-qname-08-rq and syntax-qname-14-rq (punctuationSyntax)

Tests affected by the proposal:

<DaveB> 08: WHERE { :a. x.: : . }

WHERE { :a. x.: : . }

Is there any new evidence to reopen the dots-in-qnames decision?

<kendall> Other than that people keep being unhappy about it?

EricP completely ambivalent.

PatH wonders whether redefining qname syntax is any of our business, suggests intra-spec consistency more important than minor (?) bits of convenience

<kendall> +1 for XML qname rules from me

<SteveH> yes, +1 for XML rules

Differences from XML: _foo:bar are not allowed.

Differences from XML: foo: are allowed.

<DaveB> andy says _:a is not allowed - diff from xml

<DaveB> and currently _foo:bar also not allowed

JosD notes considerable deployment of { a b c. }

<DaveB> turtle's never allowed a b c.

<kendall> (hmm, epistemic sins may seem to license future sins! :>)

<SteveH> ericP, generated queries would need special rules for qnames with .s

<DaveB> they'll need special rules anyway to escape <s, "s etc. etc.

EricP: Note that qnames are just short-hand; in the general case, you can write out the full URI.
a:b a:c <http://example.org/#foo.>
a:b a:c c:foo.
In a larger context:

{ a:b a:c c:foo. .
  a:d a:e a:f }

<ericP> DaveB, i read c:foo.... as <$ns{c}:foo....>

<AndyS> Is < legal in an IRI at all?

<DaveB> you can use \u002E always anwyay

<kendall> eek

POLL: (a) not dots in qnames (b) dots in qnames except at the end (c) dots in qnames even at the end

a -4

a -5

b -1

c -1

c -2

<kendall> and qname rules are already maximally arbitrary, so one more bit isn't really one more! :>

RESOLVED: to allow dots in qnames except at the end. Dave, Pat abstain

<ericP> i'm happy for a decision

<kendall> ACTION: JosD to fix up the relevant tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-minutes.html#action01]

IRI normalization

msg from EricP


ACTION: EricP add a note that users should be aware of non-canonicalization of IRIs

ACTION: SteveH to review the relevant test case re: IRI normalization

Refining Optionals

Refining Optionals from AndyS

ACTION: PatH to review new optionals defintions, if any

solution modifiers & construct/describe

example from AndyS in reply to comments from KendallC

<kendall> That would help, I think, make the design more clear.

ACTION: AndyS to rework CONSTRUCT def'n

ACTION: AndyS to add new construct examples, with solution modifier(s), to spec

COUNT requirement?

souri: making sure folks are conciously not including COUNT(*)

<kendall> i could see the utility of COUNT, but i think we have to punt till 2.0 at this relatively late date

<kendall> Need something in the results format to serialize it, as well

<AndyS> Better design for ASK. Low cost for COUNT(*)

<DaveB> we'd be adding a new result format

<DaveB> that means new services, new xml formats

<SteveH> AndyS, COUNT can be considerably more expensive than ASK

<AndyS> Steve - ASK = SELECT EXIST in Souri's message

<SteveH> AndyS, yes

<DaveB> is EXIST a SQL keyword?

Souri: we could have the results of COUNT as a new return type ala ASK

Souri suggests a whole range of cardinality queries motivate this

<Yoshio> I share the need for COUNT, remember the need I mentioned of giving the user the chance to polish the query...

<ericP> AndyS: next step, GROUP BY, is expensive

<kendall> simple v. complex (arbitrary) aggregates, basically

<kendall> Souri suggests ASK is a kind of simple aggregate already

<ericP> Souri: COUNT covers EXISTS (ASK) but is slightly more expensive

<ericP> AndyS: are we ruling out or making later grouping functionality inconvenient

<kendall> Yeah, +1 to pat's question

<ericP> PatH: how?

<ericP> AndyS: probably an unfortunate syntax choice

<kendall> AndyS largely worried about syntax that might not be forward compatible

<kendall> COUNT * only for now; then add COUNT var ... GROUP BY ...

EricP wants to wait till we do aggregates generally.

<kendall> (I agreed with that till Souri argued that ASK is already a simple aggregate which COUNT * would also be...)

<kendall> Souri would be content w/ a deferral at this point

RESOLVED: to add a count/aggregate issue and postpone it, due to schedule considerations

SPARQL QL publication

Reviewing decision from last week:

PROPOSED: to publish rq23 (1.395) , addressing FILTER and 3 editorial changes, with KendallC & JosD reviewing these changes post 1.395, as a Last Call Working Draft

DanC trying to figure out what the LC vote meant ...how much editing is up to the editors

(1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) ...

<DaveB> & pick a namespace name for xmlresults?

<DaveB> I pick http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults

<kendall> Do the editor's intend the doc to [go to] LC w/ the red sections about consensus issues still in the doc?

TODO list for the spec:

strike "@@Ensure markup around examples enables XSLT extraction."

drop "@@Labeling when document is TOC-stable"

<scribe> done @@Matching is on a graph from a dataset.

"@@Prefix - sec 1.1 - See if there are any - consider rewriting if a just a few." -- strike.

RESOLVED: http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults for results namespace name

ACTION: DanC to put a doc at the new results format namespace

RESOLVED: to publish SPARQL ql as last call, v1.406 + 9 changes, contingnent on review as follows

  1. optionals, andy/pat
  2. IRI non-normalization, ericp
  3. construct/limit andy/kc
  4. clarify which regex lang, new section ericp, andys
  5. defns extraction. ericp
  6. qname-dots grammar. AndyS, EricP
  7. results ns andys
  8. SOTD DanC, EricP
  9. production 20 grammar edit by andy


minutes edited by DanC and EricP based on notes by KendallC and EricP
formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.126
$Date: 2005/07/01 16:04:39 $