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Results of Questionnaire ISSUE-97: Removing the meter Element - Straw Poll for Objections

The results of this questionnaire are available to anybody.

This questionnaire was open from 2010-05-12 to 2010-05-19.

5 answers have been received.

Jump to results for question:

  1. Objections to the Change Proposal to Remove the meter Element
  2. Objections to the Change Proposal to Keep New Elements and Attributes

1. Objections to the Change Proposal to Remove the meter Element

We have a Change Proposal to remove the meter element. If you have strong objections to adopting this Change Proposal, please state your objections below.

Keep in mind, you must actually state an objection, not merely cite someone else. If you feel that your objection has already been adequately addressed by someone else, then it is not necessary to repeat it.


Responder Objections to the Change Proposal to Remove the meter Element
Larry Masinter
Cynthia Shelly See my comment on <details>. These behavioral user interface elements are one of the key advances of HTML 5 and should not be removed.
David Singer -Level indicators (or gauges) are a common and useful UI idiom in a wide range of native applications. HTML5 should serve this idiom directly.
- Level indicators are one of the basic control types supported on Mac OS X. They are part of a complete modern UI toolkit. HTML5 should serve applications by providing a complete set of controls.
- Some operating systems have a very specific platform-native look for level indicators. While some content authors want to make web applications with custom-looking controls for everything, others want to match the platform native look. Often they try to do this by building controls out of image pieces in the hopes of targeting a single platform, causing a mismatch on other platforms or when the original target platform changes. The <meter> element is the only proposed way to get a level indicator with a truly native look and feel.
- While level indicators are not as common as some other control types, the lack of a control for a level indicator may lead authors to abuse progress indicators for this purpose. That would be harmful to UI consistency and accessibility.
- Semantic elements lead to improved accessibility. The HTML WG Accessibility Task Force has endorsed the <meter> element and opposed the call to remove it.
- Implementors of multiple browser engines, including WebKit, Gecko and Presto, have expressed interest in implementing this element. There is an initial implementation in WebKt.

Given the interest from authors, implementors and the accessibility community in keeping it, the <meter> element should not be removed.
Jonas Sicking I object to removing the <progress> element as it would result in missing out of the positive effects listed in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/KeepNewElements#Positive_Effects

My experience working with web authors for several years is that they tend to do what is easy, whereas accessibility often ends up coming second due to time constraints and unawareness.

By including the semantic <meter> element, we both make it easier for developers to do what they want, since they'll need to use less markup and script, while automatically getting a good accessibility story.

The change proposal to remove <meter> seems to have no solution for what HTML editors like nvu or dreamweaver should do, making it impossible for such tools to properly support the functionality that <meter>s supplies. At least without resorting to hacks that don't work in a cross-editor manner.

Finally, I think it's very unlikely that as many people would add proper ARIA attributes, as would use the <meter> element. I think this is the reason that the WAI-ARIA specification encourages developers of markup languages to add semantic elements and explicitly declares ARIA as a bridge technology. I also think this is why the HTML Accessibility TF has endorsed the <meter> element.

While I don't like the name 'meter' at all, I also can't think of a better name. And I feel that removing a useful element just because we can't come up with a perfect name, would be having the wrong priorities.
Laura Carlson

2. Objections to the Change Proposal to Keep New Elements and Attributes

We have a Change Proposal to keep several newly-introduced semantic elements, attributes, and controls. If you have strong objections to adopting this Change Proposal specifically with respect to the meter element, please state your objections below.

Keep in mind, you must actually state an objection, not merely cite someone else. If you feel that your objection has already been adequately addressed by someone else, then it is not necessary to repeat it.


Responder Objections to the Change Proposal to Keep New Elements and Attributes
Larry Masinter (see objection on ISSUE-90; lack of transition plan and unambiguous support at this point => remove to allow HTML5 to reach rec realistically).
Cynthia Shelly
David Singer
Jonas Sicking
Laura Carlson Rationale is at:

More details on responses


The following persons have not answered the questionnaire:

  1. Tantek Çelik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
  2. Patrick D F Ion <pion@umich.edu>
  3. Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>
  4. Liam Quin <liam@w3.org>
  5. Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
  6. Chris Wilson <cwilso@google.com>
  7. David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk>
  8. James Helman <jhelman@movielabs.com>
  9. Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
  10. Chris Marrin <cmarrin@apple.com>
  11. Charles McCathie Nevile <chaals@yandex.ru>
  12. Philippe Le Hégaret <plh@w3.org>
  13. Don Brutzman <brutzman@nps.edu>
  14. T.V. Raman <raman@google.com>
  15. Daniel Glazman <daniel.glazman@disruptive-innovations.com>
  16. Karl Dubost <karl@la-grange.net>
  17. Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
  18. Wu Chou <wu.chou@huawei.com>
  19. Katsuhiko Momoi <momoi@google.com>
  20. Kangchan Lee <chan@w3.org>
  21. Roy Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com>
  22. Deborah Dahl <dahl@conversational-technologies.com>
  23. Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>
  24. Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
  25. Jonathan Jeon <hollobit@etri.re.kr>
  26. David Hyatt <hyatt@apple.com>
  27. WonSuk Lee <wonsuk.lee@etri.re.kr>
  28. Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
  29. Robert Accettura <robert@accettura.com>
  30. Jonathan Watt <jwatt@jwatt.org>
  31. Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
  32. Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo <emmanuelle@sidar.org>
  33. Patrick Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
  34. David MacDonald <David100@sympatico.ca>
  35. Jack Jansen <jack@cwi.nl>
  36. Kazuhito Kidachi <k-kidachi@mitsue.co.jp>
  37. Markku Hakkinen <mhakkinen@ets.org>
  38. Jens Oliver Meiert <jens@meiert.com>
  39. Kazuyuki Ashimura <ashimura@w3.org>
  40. Tomas Caspers <tomas@tomascaspers.de>
  41. Han Xu <collin@w3china.org>
  42. Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
  43. Mark Crawford <mark.crawford@sap.com>
  44. Preety Kumar <preety.kumar@deque.com>
  45. Ian Fette <ifette@google.com>
  46. Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
  47. Stefan Schnabel <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>
  48. Jirka Kosek <jirka@kosek.cz>
  49. Travis Leithead <Travis.Leithead@microsoft.com>
  50. Youngsun Ryu <ysryu@samsung.com>
  51. Sierk Bornemann <sierkb@gmail.com>
  52. James Graham <james@hoppipolla.co.uk>
  53. Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@hsivonen.fi>
  54. Krijn Hoetmer <w3c@qontent.nl>
  55. Channy Yun <channy@gmail.com>
  56. Shane Thacker <shanethacker@gmail.com>
  57. Vilem Malek <murphy@malek.cz>
  58. Zhihong Mao <zhihong.mao@gmail.com>
  59. Benoit Piette <benoit.piette@gmail.com>
  60. Erik van Kempen <erikvankempen@gmail.com>
  61. Dimitri Glazkov <dglazkov@google.com>
  62. Nick Fitzsimons <w3@nickfitz.co.uk>
  63. Josh Lawton <w3c@joshlawton.com>
  64. S Emerson <w3c@accretewebsolutions.ca>
  65. Theresa O'Connor <eoconnor@apple.com>
  66. Justin Anthony Knapp <justinkoavf@gmail.com>
  67. Simon Myers <Smylers@stripey.com>
  68. Samuel Weinig <weinig@apple.com>
  69. Alexey Proskuryakov <ap@webkit.org>
  70. Alejandro Fernandez <alejandro@mediadvanced.com>
  71. Doug Jones <doug_b_jones@me.com>
  72. Marc Drumm <mdrumm@wcupa.edu>
  73. Danny Liang <danny.glue@gmail.com>
  74. Michael Puls II <shadow2531@gmail.com>
  75. Ron Reisor <ron@udel.edu>
  76. Craig Buckler <craigbuckler@gmail.com>
  77. Dale Hudjik <dale.hudjik@gmail.com>
  78. James Cassell <w3c@cyberpear.com>
  79. Joseph D'Andrea <jdandrea@gmail.com>
  80. Eric Carlson <eric.carlson@apple.com>
  81. Don Kiely <donkiely@computer.org>
  82. David Child <dave@addedbytes.com>
  83. Mark DuBois <Mark@webprofessionals.org>
  84. David Bills <w3@dfbills.com>
  85. Nik Thierry <me@thisemail.ca>
  86. Andrew Ramsden <andrew@irama.org>
  87. John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
  88. Shefik Macauley <allknightaccess@gmail.com>
  89. Joe Steele <steele@adobe.com>
  90. John Vernaleo <john@netpurgatory.com>
  91. Jeremy Keith <jeremy@adactio.com>
  92. Jedi Lin <JediLin@Gmail.com>
  93. Jon Hughes <jon@phazm.com>
  94. Samuel Santos <samaxes@gmail.com>
  95. Dean Jackson <dino@apple.com>
  96. Mohammed DADAS <mohammed.dadas@orange.com>
  97. Sally Cain <sally.cain@rnib.org.uk>
  98. David Bolter <dbolter@mozilla.com>
  99. James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
  100. Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
  101. Jean-Pierre EVAIN <evain@ebu.ch>
  102. Mark Pilgrim <pilgrim@google.com>
  103. Matt Lee <mattl@cnuk.org>
  104. Magnus Olsson <magnus.olsson@ericsson.com>
  105. Chris Pearce <cpearce@mozilla.com>
  106. Mark Miller <erights@google.com>
  107. Andrew Wilson <atwilson@google.com>
  108. Per-Erik Brodin <per-erik.brodin@ericsson.com>
  109. Ojan Vafai <ojan@chromium.org>
  110. Martin McEvoy <martin@weborganics.co.uk>
  111. Aryeh Gregor <ayg@aryeh.name>
  112. Anders Bondehagen <anders@bondehagen.com>
  113. Steven Pemberton <Steven.Pemberton@cwi.nl>
  114. Raul Hudea <rhudea@adobe.com>
  115. Raghavan Gurumurthy <raghavan@adobe.com>
  116. Mayank Kumar <mayankk@adobe.com>
  117. Dragos Georgita <dgeorgit@adobe.com>
  118. Christopher Bank <cbank@adobe.com>
  119. Ole Riesenberg <or@oleriesenberg.com>
  120. Takuya Oikawa <takuya@google.com>
  121. Jatinder Mann <jmann@microsoft.com>
  122. Robert Stern <rstern@gmail.com>
  123. Eihab Ibrahim <eihabibrahim@gmail.com>
  124. Kensaku KOMATSU <kensaku.komatsu@gmail.com>
  125. Jer Noble <jer.noble@apple.com>
  126. Masatomo Kobayashi <mstm@jp.ibm.com>
  127. Peter Beverloo <beverloo@google.com>
  128. Andrew Scherkus <scherkus@google.com>
  129. Greg Johnson <greg.johnson@gmail.com>
  130. Martijn Croonen <martijn@martijnc.be>
  131. Stanley Manoski <manoski@mitre.org>
  132. Mounir Lamouri <mlamouri@google.com>
  133. Tony Gentilcore <tonyg@google.com>
  134. Joseph Pecoraro <pecoraro@apple.com>
  135. Bob Lund <b.lund@cablelabs.com>
  136. Tatsuya Igarashi <Tatsuya.Igarashi@sony.com>
  137. John Simmons <johnsim@microsoft.com>
  138. Mark Watson <watsonm@netflix.com>
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  140. Mark Vickers <mark_vickers@comcast.com>
  141. Jeremy LaCivita <jeremy.lacivita@comcast.com>
  142. Denis Ah-Kang <denis@w3.org>
  143. Alvar Laigna <laigna@gmail.com>
  144. Kunio Ito <kunio.ito@mail.rakuten.com>
  145. David Mays <david_mays@comcast.com>
  146. Michael Chen <michael_chen@comcast.com>
  147. jongyoul Park <jongyoul@etri.re.kr>
  148. Reinaldo Ferraz <reinaldo@nic.br>
  149. Eva Lingyun Jing <jinglingyun@baidu.com>
  150. GANG LIANG <gang.liang@huawei.com>
  151. Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@apple.com>
  152. Gian Luca Marroni <gmarroni@libero.it>
  153. Ian Devlin <ian@iandevlin.com>
  154. Xingrong Guo <guoxingrong@baidu.com>
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  156. Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
  157. Hasan Savran <hsavran@kent.edu>
  158. Eric VonColln <eric.voncolln@navy.mil>
  159. Jungkee Song <jungkee.song@samsung.com>
  160. Rayi Lei <leiyi@baidu.com>
  161. David Dorwin <ddorwin@google.com>
  162. jiexuan gao <gaojiexuan@baidu.com>
  163. Xiaoqing Yang <yangxiaoqing@baidu.com>
  164. Aaron Colwell <acolwell@google.com>
  165. Alex Giladi <alex.giladi@huawei.com>
  166. Motomasa Futagami <Motomasa.Futagami@jp.sony.com>
  167. Kevin Streeter <kstreete@adobe.com>
  168. Christian Kaiser <kaiserc@google.com>
  169. Xuejian Li <lixuejian@baidu.com>
  170. Zuncheng Yang <yangzuncheng@baidu.com>
  171. Qianglong Zheng <zhengqianglong@baidu.com>
  172. Zhou Shen <shenzhou@baidu.com>
  173. Duoyi Wu <wuduoyi@baidu.com>
  174. Zheng Jia <jiazheng@baidu.com>
  175. Weifeng Feng <fengweifeng@baidu.com>
  176. Damin Hu <hudamin@baidu.com>
  177. Yang Liu <liuyang12@baidu.com>
  178. Zhixing Lei <leizhixing@baidu.com>
  179. Honggang Tang <tanghonggang@baidu.com>
  180. Kefeng Li <buaadallas@gmail.com>
  181. Xu Ma <maxu@baidu.com>
  182. Junzhong Liu <liujunzhong@baidu.com>
  183. Stefan Kaiser <stefan.kaiser@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
  184. Stefan Pham <stefan.pham@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
  185. Ami Fischman <fischman@google.com>
  186. Arnaud Braud <arnaud.braud@orange.com>
  187. Futomi Hatano <futomi.hatano@newphoria.co.jp>
  188. Bram Tullemans <tullemans@ebu.ch>
  189. Petr Peterka <ppeterka@verimatrix.com>
  190. lei wang <wanglei03@baidu.com>
  191. Milan Patel <Milan.Patel@huawei.com>
  192. Yiling Gu <guyiling@baidu.com>
  193. Zefa Xiong <xiongzefa@baidu.com>
  194. shanglin chen <chenshanglin@baidu.com>
  195. Ping Wu <wuping02@baidu.com>
  196. Bin Chen <chenbin01@baidu.com>
  197. Youichi Takashima <takashima.youichi@lab.ntt.co.jp>
  198. Patrick Ladd <Pat_Ladd2@comcast.com>
  199. Norifumi Kikkawa <norifumi.kikkawa@jp.sony.com>
  200. Hao Jing <jh.jinghao@huawei.com>
  201. Glenn Deen <glenn.deen@nbcuni.com>
  202. Lei Wang <wanglei@baidu.com>
  203. Tom Handal <thandal@verimatrix.com>
  204. Pengcheng Guo <guopengcheng@baidu.com>
  205. Tom Wiltzius <wiltzius@google.com>
  206. Pierre-Anthony Lemieux <pal@sandflow.com>
  207. Xie Jianhui <xiejianhui@baidu.com>
  208. Yujie Jiang <jiangyujie@baidu.com>
  209. Kazuhiko Takabayashi <kazuhiko.takabayashi@jp.sony.com>
  210. Brady Eidson <beidson@apple.com>
  211. Jerry Smith <jdsmith@microsoft.com>
  212. Michael Thornburgh <mthornbu@adobe.com>
  213. Mick Hakobyan <mhakobyan@netflix.com>
  214. Vladimir Sinelnikov <sinelnikov@gmail.com>
  215. Chris Wong <huanghoujin@baidu.com>
  216. Yiliang LIU <liuyiliang@baidu.com>
  217. mingqiang zhang <imcnan@gmail.com>
  218. Suzanne Taylor <Suzanne.Taylor@pearson.com>
  219. Grzegorz Babula <gbabula@gmail.com>
  220. Brian Kardell <hitchjs@gmail.com>
  221. xueliang fan <fanxueliang@baidu.com>
  222. Niels Thorwirth <nthorwirth@verimatrix.com>
  223. David Evans <david.evans@rd.bbc.co.uk>
  224. Joseph Karr O'Connor <josephoconnor@mac.com>
  225. Yusuke Kagiwada <block.rxckin.beats@gmail.com>
  226. smallni ding <smallniding@tencent.com>
  227. Jim Walsh <jim@jwalshcreative.com>
  228. Greg Davis <greg.davis@pearson.com>
  229. Gabino Alonso <gabinovincent@gmail.com>
  230. Sam Langdon <sam.langdon@hachette.co.uk>
  231. Michael Kelly <mkelly@mozilla.com>
  232. Xiaoqian Wu <xiaoqian@w3.org>
  233. Yue Min <minyue@baidu.com>
  234. Min Li <limin04@baidu.com>
  235. Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
  236. Pedro Xavier Jorge <pedro.xavierjorge@gmail.com>
  237. Akira Torii <Torii.Akira@bp.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  238. So Vang <svang@nab.org>
  239. Nathalia Sautchuk Patrício <nathalia@nic.br>
  240. Vicente García Díaz <vicegd@live.com>
  241. Shinya Maruyama <Shinya.Maruyama@jp.sony.com>
  242. Yusuke Yokosuka <Yokosuka.Yusuke@bx.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  243. John Riviello <john_riviello@comcast.com>
  244. yaolong wang <wangyaolong@baidu.com>
  245. Tao Liang <liangtao01@baidu.com>
  246. Glenn Eguchi <geguchi@adobe.com>
  247. Lukáš Čihák <lukas.cihak@mensa.cz>
  248. WOOGLAE KIM <wlkim@inswave.com>
  249. Min Ren <minren@tencent.com>
  250. Rustam Khashimkhodjaev <Rustam_Khashimkhodjaev@comcast.com>
  251. Jason White <jjwhite@ets.org>
  252. Hyejin Lee <hjlee@html5forum.or.kr>
  253. Richard Grzeczkowski <richard_grzeczkowski@comcast.com>
  254. qigang huang <qiganghuang@tencent.com>
  255. Pascal Perrot <pascal.perrot@orange.com>
  256. Dapeng Liu <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
  257. Matthew Wolenetz <wolenetz@google.com>
  258. Cory Heslip <cory_heslip@comcast.com>
  259. Shaohang Yang <shaohang.ysh@alibaba-inc.com>
  260. Seiji Okumura <Okumura.Seiji@bc.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  261. Eiji Yamamoto <Yamamoto.Eiji@db.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  262. Ali C. Begen <ali_begen@comcast.com>

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