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Results of Questionnaire ISSUE-95: Removing the hidden Attribute - Straw Poll for Objections

The results of this questionnaire are available to anybody.

This questionnaire was open from 2010-05-12 to 2010-05-19.

8 answers have been received.

Jump to results for question:

  1. Objections to the Change Proposal to Remove the hidden Attribute
  2. Objections to the Change Proposal to Keep New Elements and Attributes

1. Objections to the Change Proposal to Remove the hidden Attribute

We have a Change Proposal to remove the hidden attribute. If you have strong objections to adopting this Change Proposal, please state your objections below.

Keep in mind, you must actually state an objection, not merely cite someone else. If you feel that your objection has already been adequately addressed by someone else, then it is not necessary to repeat it.


Responder Objections to the Change Proposal to Remove the hidden Attribute
Larry Masinter
Julian Reschke
David Singer - The hidden attribute provides a way to mark up hidden or temporarily irrelevant content in a way that combines semantics, accessibility, and default appearance. There is a difference between being semantically hidden/irrelevant and not being displayed for purely presentational reasons.
- HTML4 partially serves the need for semantically hidden content with <input type=hidden>, this should be generalized to all elements.
- The aria-hidden attribute partially serves the need to hide content semantically, but it requires authors to arrange for actually hiding the element visually using a separate mechanism. Accessibility would be improved by using a single mechanism.
- Semantic elements and attributes lead to improved accessibility. The HTML WG Accessibility Task Force has endorsed the hidden attribute and opposed the call to remove it.
- Implementors of multiple browser engines, including WebKit, Gecko and Presto, have expressed interest in implementing this element.

Given the interest from authors, implementors and the accessibility community in keeping it, the hidden attribute should not be removed.
Cynthia Shelly The existing mechanisms all miss one case or another, and it is complicated to understand when to use one over another. The new hidden attribute covers all the cases in a way that will make it much simpler to include markup on a page that is intended as input to a script rather than output to a user.
Gregory Rosmaita a native solution which provides the means of marking content as not yet or no longer relevant, is highly desireable; while such a feature, of course, needs to be harmonized with what ARIA offers, it MUST be remembered that aria-hidden is part of a bridging vocabulary, which provides semantics and functionalities which native markup does not provide; the hiding and exposition of content that is not yet, or is no longer, relevant should not be left to scripting or an overlay such as ARIA, but should be an organic part of HTML5.

that said, i agree with julian reschke that in order for the hidden attribute to work as intended, it is first necessary to define precedence rules for the application of hidden.
Jonas Sicking I object to removing the hidden attribute as it would result in missing out of the positive effects listed in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/KeepNewElements#Positive_Effects

My experience working with web authors for several years is that they tend to do what is easy, whereas accessibility often ends up coming second due to time constraints and unawareness.

By including the semantic hidden element, we both make it easier for developers to do what they want, since they can use the .hidden IDL attribute, and they automatically get the desired semantic meaning.

I think it's very unlikely that as many people would add proper ARIA attributes, as would use the hidden attribute. I think this is the reason that the WAI-ARIA specification encourages developers of markup languages to add semantic elements and explicitly declares ARIA as a bridge technology. I also think this is why the HTML Accessibility TF has endorsed the hidden attribute.
Laura Carlson
Krzysztof Maczy&#324;ski

2. Objections to the Change Proposal to Keep New Elements and Attributes

We have a Change Proposal to keep several newly-introduced semantic elements, attributes, and controls. If you have strong objections to adopting this Change Proposal specifically with respect to the hidden attribute, please state your objections below.

Keep in mind, you must actually state an objection, not merely cite someone else. If you feel that your objection has already been adequately addressed by someone else, then it is not necessary to repeat it.


Responder Objections to the Change Proposal to Keep New Elements and Attributes
Larry Masinter (see objection on ISSUE-90; lack of transition plan and unambiguous support at this point => remove to allow HTML5 to reach rec realistically).
Julian Reschke It appears that @hidden just duplicates functionality that is already there (through CSS and aria), without actually defining precedence rules. Also, it appears to have a weak deployment story. Finally, the claim that setting the display style to none is "error-prone" is really questionable.
David Singer
Cynthia Shelly
Gregory Rosmaita
Jonas Sicking
Laura Carlson Rationale is at:
Krzysztof Maczy&#324;ski The other CP lists enough problems with this attribute. Besides, the case for boolean attributes is questionable (changing requires altering presence of a node, not just its value, which is inconvinient in some scenarios). While it may well be useful, even more broadly than in HTML, at this time it should be removed from the draft, possibly to come back more fully baked later. (There's little to lose anyway, given ARIA's close equivalent. Careful attention has to be paid to aspects in which there's no equivalence, however.)

More details on responses


The following persons have not answered the questionnaire:

  1. Tantek Çelik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
  2. Patrick D F Ion <ion@ams.org>
  3. Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>
  4. Liam Quin <liam@w3.org>
  5. Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
  6. Chris Wilson <cwilso@google.com>
  7. David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk>
  8. James Helman <jhelman@movielabs.com>
  9. Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
  10. Chris Marrin <cmarrin@apple.com>
  11. Charles McCathie Nevile <chaals@yandex-team.ru>
  12. Philippe Le Hégaret <plh@w3.org>
  13. Don Brutzman <brutzman@nps.edu>
  14. T.V. Raman <raman@google.com>
  15. Daniel Glazman <daniel.glazman@disruptive-innovations.com>
  16. Karl Dubost <karl@la-grange.net>
  17. Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
  18. Lisa Seeman-Kestenbaum <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>
  19. Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>
  20. Wu Chou <wu.chou@huawei.com>
  21. Katsuhiko Momoi <momoi@google.com>
  22. Kangchan Lee <chan@w3.org>
  23. Roy Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com>
  24. Deborah Dahl <dahl@conversational-technologies.com>
  25. Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>
  26. Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
  27. Jonathan Jeon <hollobit@etri.re.kr>
  28. David Hyatt <hyatt@apple.com>
  29. WonSuk Lee <wonsuk.lee@etri.re.kr>
  30. Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
  31. Robert Accettura <robert@accettura.com>
  32. Jonathan Watt <jwatt@jwatt.org>
  33. Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
  34. Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo <emmanuelle@sidar.org>
  35. Patrick Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
  36. David MacDonald <David100@sympatico.ca>
  37. Jack Jansen <jack@cwi.nl>
  38. Kazuhito Kidachi <k-kidachi@mitsue.co.jp>
  39. Markku Hakkinen <mhakkinen@ets.org>
  40. Cyril Concolato <cyril.concolato@telecom-paristech.fr>
  41. Jens Meiert <jens@meiert.com>
  42. Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
  43. Kazuyuki Ashimura <ashimura@w3.org>
  44. Tomas Caspers <tomas@tomascaspers.de>
  45. Han Xu <collin@w3china.org>
  46. Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
  47. Mark Crawford <mark.crawford@sap.com>
  48. Preety Kumar <preety.kumar@deque.com>
  49. Ian Fette <ifette@google.com>
  50. Michael[tm] Smith <mike@w3.org>
  51. Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
  52. Stefan Schnabel <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>
  53. Jirka Kosek <jirka@kosek.cz>
  54. Travis Leithead <Travis.Leithead@microsoft.com>
  55. Youngsun Ryu <ysryu@samsung.com>
  56. Sierk Bornemann <sierkb@gmail.com>
  57. Simon Pieters <simonp@opera.com>
  58. James Graham <james@hoppipolla.co.uk>
  59. Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@hsivonen.fi>
  60. Krijn Hoetmer <w3c@qontent.nl>
  61. Channy Yun <channy@gmail.com>
  62. Shane Thacker <shanethacker@gmail.com>
  63. Vilem Malek <murphy@malek.cz>
  64. Zhihong Mao <zhihong.mao@gmail.com>
  65. Benoit Piette <benoit.piette@gmail.com>
  66. Erik van Kempen <erikvankempen@gmail.com>
  67. Dimitri Glazkov <dglazkov@google.com>
  68. Nick Fitzsimons <w3@nickfitz.co.uk>
  69. Josh Lawton <w3c@joshlawton.com>
  70. Adele Peterson <adele@apple.com>
  71. S Emerson <w3c@accretewebsolutions.ca>
  72. Morten Tollefsen <morten@medialt.no>
  73. Daniel Schattenkirchner <schattenkirchner.daniel@gmx.de>
  74. Theresa O'Connor <eoconnor@apple.com>
  75. Justin Anthony Knapp <justinkoavf@gmail.com>
  76. Simon Myers <Smylers@stripey.com>
  77. Samuel Weinig <weinig@apple.com>
  78. Alexey Proskuryakov <ap@webkit.org>
  79. Alejandro Fernandez <alejandro@mediadvanced.com>
  80. Doug Jones <doug_b_jones@me.com>
  81. Marc Drumm <mdrumm@wcupa.edu>
  82. Danny Liang <danny.glue@gmail.com>
  83. Michael Puls II <shadow2531@gmail.com>
  84. Ron Reisor <ron@udel.edu>
  85. Marat Tanalin <mtanalin@yandex.ru>
  86. Andrew Norman <idonothaveacat@gmail.com>
  87. Craig Buckler <craigbuckler@gmail.com>
  88. Dale Hudjik <dale.hudjik@gmail.com>
  89. James Cassell <w3c@cyberpear.com>
  90. Joseph D'Andrea <jdandrea@gmail.com>
  91. Eric Carlson <eric.carlson@apple.com>
  92. Don Kiely <donkiely@computer.org>
  93. David Child <dave@addedbytes.com>
  94. Mark DuBois <Mark@webprofessionals.org>
  95. David Bills <w3@dfbills.com>
  96. Nik Thierry <me@thisemail.ca>
  97. Andrew Ramsden <andrew@irama.org>
  98. John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
  99. Shefik Macauley <allknightaccess@gmail.com>
  100. Joe Steele <steele@adobe.com>
  101. John Vernaleo <john@netpurgatory.com>
  102. Jeremy Keith <jeremy@adactio.com>
  103. Jedi Lin <JediLin@Gmail.com>
  104. Jon Hughes <jon@phazm.com>
  105. Samuel Santos <samaxes@gmail.com>
  106. Dean Jackson <dino@apple.com>
  107. Mohammed DADAS <mohammed.dadas@orange.com>
  108. Sally Cain <sally.cain@rnib.org.uk>
  109. Dan Romascanu <dromasca@avaya.com>
  110. David Bolter <dbolter@mozilla.com>
  111. James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
  112. MING JIN <ming.jin.web@gmail.com>
  113. Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
  114. Adrian Bateman <adrianba@microsoft.com>
  115. Jean-Pierre EVAIN <evain@ebu.ch>
  116. Mark Pilgrim <pilgrim@google.com>
  117. Matt Lee <mattl@cnuk.org>
  118. Magnus Olsson <magnus.olsson@ericsson.com>
  119. Chris Pearce <cpearce@mozilla.com>
  120. Mark Miller <erights@google.com>
  121. Andrew Wilson <atwilson@google.com>
  122. Per-Erik Brodin <per-erik.brodin@ericsson.com>
  123. Ojan Vafai <ojan@chromium.org>
  124. Martin McEvoy <martin@weborganics.co.uk>
  125. Aryeh Gregor <ayg@aryeh.name>
  126. Anders Bondehagen <anders@bondehagen.com>
  127. Steven Pemberton <Steven.Pemberton@cwi.nl>
  128. Raul Hudea <rhudea@adobe.com>
  129. Raghavan Gurumurthy <raghavan@adobe.com>
  130. Mayank Kumar <mayankk@adobe.com>
  131. Dragos Georgita <dgeorgit@adobe.com>
  132. Christopher Bank <cbank@adobe.com>
  133. Ole Riesenberg <or@oleriesenberg.com>
  134. Takuya Oikawa <takuya@google.com>
  135. Jatinder Mann <jmann@microsoft.com>
  136. Robert Stern <rstern@gmail.com>
  137. Eihab Ibrahim <eihabibrahim@gmail.com>
  138. Kensaku KOMATSU <kensaku.komatsu@gmail.com>
  139. Jer Noble <jer.noble@apple.com>
  140. Masatomo Kobayashi <mstm@jp.ibm.com>
  141. Peter Beverloo <beverloo@google.com>
  142. Andrew Scherkus <scherkus@google.com>
  143. Greg Johnson <greg.johnson@gmail.com>
  144. Martijn Croonen <martijn@martijnc.be>
  145. Stanley Manoski <manoski@mitre.org>
  146. Mounir Lamouri <mlamouri@google.com>
  147. Tony Gentilcore <tonyg@google.com>
  148. Joseph Pecoraro <pecoraro@apple.com>
  149. Bob Lund <b.lund@cablelabs.com>
  150. Tatsuya Igarashi <Tatsuya.Igarashi@jp.sony.com>
  151. John Simmons <johnsim@microsoft.com>
  152. Mark Watson <watsonm@netflix.com>
  153. Clarke Stevens <c.stevens@cablelabs.com>
  154. Mark Vickers <mark_vickers@comcast.com>
  155. Sree Kotay <Sree_Kotay@comcast.com>
  156. Rik Cabanier <Cabanier@adobe.com>
  157. Jeremy LaCivita <jeremy.lacivita@comcast.com>
  158. Denis Ah-Kang <denis@w3.org>
  159. Alvar Laigna <laigna@gmail.com>
  160. Kunio Ito <kunio.ito@mail.rakuten.com>
  161. David Mays <david_mays@comcast.com>
  162. Michael Chen <michael_chen@comcast.com>
  163. jongyoul Park <jongyoul@etri.re.kr>
  164. Reinaldo Ferraz <reinaldo@nic.br>
  165. Bill Mandel <bill.mandel@nbcuni.com>
  166. Eva Lingyun Jing <jinglingyun@baidu.com>
  167. GANG LIANG <gang.liang@huawei.com>
  168. Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@apple.com>
  169. Jason Kiss <jason@accessibleculture.org>
  170. Gian Luca Marroni <gmarroni@libero.it>
  171. Ian Devlin <ian@iandevlin.com>
  172. Xingrong Guo <guoxingrong@baidu.com>
  173. Jet Villegas <w3c@junglecode.net>
  174. Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
  175. Hasan Savran <hsavran@kent.edu>
  176. Eric VonColln <eric.voncolln@navy.mil>
  177. Jungkee Song <jungkee.song@samsung.com>
  178. Rayi Lei <leiyi@baidu.com>
  179. Daniel Austin <daniel.austin@grintech.net>
  180. David Dorwin <ddorwin@google.com>
  181. jiexuan gao <gaojiexuan@baidu.com>
  182. Xiaoqing Yang <yangxiaoqing@baidu.com>
  183. Aaron Colwell <acolwell@google.com>
  184. Alex Giladi <alex.giladi@huawei.com>
  185. Motomasa Futagami <Motomasa.Futagami@jp.sony.com>
  186. Kevin Streeter <kstreete@adobe.com>
  187. Christian Kaiser <kaiserc@google.com>
  188. Xuejian Li <lixuejian@baidu.com>
  189. Zuncheng Yang <yangzuncheng@baidu.com>
  190. Qianglong Zheng <zhengqianglong@baidu.com>
  191. Zhou Shen <shenzhou@baidu.com>
  192. Duoyi Wu <wuduoyi@baidu.com>
  193. Zheng Jia <jiazheng@baidu.com>
  194. Weifeng Feng <fengweifeng@baidu.com>
  195. Damin Hu <hudamin@baidu.com>
  196. Yang Liu <liuyang12@baidu.com>
  197. Zhixing Lei <leizhixing@baidu.com>
  198. Honggang Tang <tanghonggang@baidu.com>
  199. Kefeng Li <buaadallas@gmail.com>
  200. Xu Ma <maxu@baidu.com>
  201. Junzhong Liu <liujunzhong@baidu.com>
  202. Stefan Kaiser <stefan.kaiser@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
  203. Stefan Pham <stefan.pham@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
  204. Ami Fischman <fischman@google.com>
  205. Arnaud Braud <arnaud.braud@orange.com>
  206. Futomi Hatano <futomi.hatano@newphoria.co.jp>
  207. Bram Tullemans <tullemans@ebu.ch>
  208. Petr Peterka <ppeterka@verimatrix.com>
  209. lei wang <wanglei03@baidu.com>
  210. Milan Patel <Milan.Patel@huawei.com>
  211. Yiling Gu <guyiling@baidu.com>
  212. Zefa Xiong <xiongzefa@baidu.com>
  213. shanglin chen <chenshanglin@baidu.com>
  214. Ping Wu <wuping02@baidu.com>
  215. Bin Chen <chenbin01@baidu.com>
  216. Youichi Takashima <takashima.youichi@lab.ntt.co.jp>
  217. Patrick Ladd <Pat_Ladd2@comcast.com>
  218. Norifumi Kikkawa <norifumi.kikkawa@jp.sony.com>
  219. Hanrui Gao <gaohanrui@360.cn>
  220. Hao Jing <jh.jinghao@huawei.com>
  221. Glenn Deen <glenn.deen@nbcuni.com>
  222. Lei Wang <wanglei@baidu.com>
  223. Tom Handal <thandal@verimatrix.com>
  224. Pengcheng Guo <guopengcheng@baidu.com>
  225. Tom Wiltzius <wiltzius@google.com>
  226. Pierre-Anthony Lemieux <pal@sandflow.com>
  227. Xie Jianhui <xiejianhui@baidu.com>
  228. Yujie Jiang <jiangyujie@baidu.com>
  229. Kazuhiko Takabayashi <kazuhiko.takabayashi@jp.sony.com>
  230. Brady Eidson <beidson@apple.com>
  231. Jerry Smith <jdsmith@microsoft.com>
  232. Michael Thornburgh <mthornbu@adobe.com>
  233. Andrew Davis <andrew@diff.mx>
  234. Mick Hakobyan <mhakobyan@netflix.com>
  235. Vladimir Sinelnikov <sinelnikov@gmail.com>
  236. Chris Wong <huanghoujin@baidu.com>
  237. Yiliang LIU <liuyiliang@baidu.com>
  238. mingqiang zhang <imcnan@gmail.com>
  239. yubo zhou <zhouyubo@360.cn>
  240. Suzanne Taylor <Suzanne.Taylor@pearson.com>
  241. Grzegorz Babula <gbabula@gmail.com>
  242. Brian Kardell <hitchjs@gmail.com>
  243. xueliang fan <fanxueliang@baidu.com>
  244. Niels Thorwirth <nthorwirth@verimatrix.com>
  245. David Evans <david.evans@rd.bbc.co.uk>
  246. Danny O'Brien <danny@eff.org>
  247. Joseph Karr O'Connor <josephoconnor@mac.com>
  248. Seth Schoen <schoen@eff.org>
  249. Yusuke Kagiwada <block.rxckin.beats@gmail.com>
  250. smallni ding <smallniding@tencent.com>
  251. Jim Walsh <jim@jwalshcreative.com>
  252. Greg Davis <greg.davis@pearson.com>
  253. Gabino Alonso <gabinovincent@gmail.com>
  254. Sam Langdon <sam.langdon@hachette.co.uk>
  255. Michael Kelly <mkelly@mozilla.com>
  256. Xiaoqian Wu <xiaoqian@w3.org>
  257. Yue Min <minyue@baidu.com>
  258. Min Li <limin04@baidu.com>
  259. A.S. Krishnakumar <ask@avaya.com>
  260. Jonathan Neal <jonathantneal@gmail.com>
  261. Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
  262. Pedro Xavier Jorge <pedro.xavierjorge@gmail.com>
  263. Akira Torii <Torii.Akira@bp.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  264. So Vang <svang@nab.org>
  265. Nathalia Sautchuk Patrício <nathalia@nic.br>
  266. Vicente García Díaz <vicegd@live.com>
  267. Shinya Maruyama <Shinya.Maruyama@jp.sony.com>
  268. Yusuke Yokosuka <Yokosuka.Yusuke@bx.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  269. John Riviello <john_riviello@comcast.com>
  270. yaolong wang <wangyaolong@baidu.com>
  271. Tao Liang <liangtao01@baidu.com>
  272. Glenn Eguchi <geguchi@adobe.com>
  273. Lukáš Čihák <lukas.cihak@mensa.cz>
  274. WOOGLAE KIM <wlkim@inswave.com>
  275. Min Ren <minren@tencent.com>
  276. Rustam Khashimkhodjaev <Rustam_Khashimkhodjaev@comcast.com>
  277. Jason White <jjwhite@ets.org>
  278. Hyejin Lee <hjlee@html5forum.or.kr>
  279. Richard Grzeczkowski <richard_grzeczkowski@comcast.com>
  280. qigang huang <qiganghuang@tencent.com>
  281. Pascal Perrot <pascal.perrot@orange.com>
  282. Dapeng Liu <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
  283. Matthew Wolenetz <wolenetz@google.com>
  284. Cory Heslip <cory_heslip@comcast.com>
  285. Shaohang Yang <shaohang.ysh@alibaba-inc.com>
  286. Seiji Okumura <Okumura.Seiji@bc.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  287. Eiji Yamamoto <Yamamoto.Eiji@db.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>

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