Results of Questionnaire ISSUE-129: replace or modify the ARIA section of the HTML5 spec - Straw Poll for Objections

The results of this questionnaire are available to anybody.

This questionnaire was open from 2011-02-09 to 2011-02-17.

6 answers have been received.

Jump to results for question:

  1. Objections to the Change Proposal to change some role mappings
  2. Objections to the Change Proposal to not allow people to use ARIA to write inaccessible documents.

1. Objections to the Change Proposal to change some role mappings

We have a Change Proposal to change some role mappings. If you have strong objections to adopting this Change Proposal, please state your objections below.

Keep in mind, you must actually state an objection, not merely cite someone else. If you feel that your objection has already been adequately addressed by someone else, then it is not necessary to repeat it.


Responder Objections to the Change Proposal to change some role mappings
Ian Hickson http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Feb/0013.html
Steve Faulkner
Tab Atkins Jr. I strongly object to allowing nonsensical roles to be set on elements. ARIA should be used to *augment* the available semantics of HTML as necessary, not to subvert them.
Richard Schwerdtfeger
David Bolter My objection requires a common ground; that we can agree on two things:

1. web developers break the rules and show no signs of stopping.
2. we would prefer the web be useable by as many people as possible.

To cope with this reality I wouldn't jump to restrict the use of ARIA. I'm not convinced it helps anyone to fill the HTML5 spec with all kinds of restrictive details about how ARIA can be used. Shouldn't we adhere to simplicity? That simplicity would be to just allow ARIA to do it's intended job: to override the way misused (and/or semantically lacking) native markup would otherwise erroneously (and/or incompletely) be reported to accessibility technology. I'd advocate for a short clear message in the HTML5 document that says to web developers that for customizing the accessible exposure of their UI go 'here' (ARIA docs).

Some context to understand my thinking around this: I don't see ARIA as a temporary need unless web developers become technically restricted (changes to js+dom+css).

Aside: I strongly agree with advocating the correct use of native markup as a means to improve accessibility. I think we can continue to do this advocating without complicating and restricting the use of ARIA. ARIA required us to trust the web developer to use it appropriately to describe UI, otherwise we'd have already lost.
Theresa O'Connor While some of the suggested ARIA role conformance changes in this CP may be reasonable, there are several I'm concerned about:

* Allowing slider, scrollbar, or progressbar for <button>, <input type=image>, or <input type=image>
* Allowing progressbar, radio, slider, or scrollbar for <a>
* Allowing button, checkbox, option, radio, slider, spinbutton, or scrollbar on <h1>-<h6>

The stated justification for substantialy liberalizing the allowed roles is that authors can change the behavior of *any* element (via script, tabindex="", and CSS), so authors need to be allowed to fix up such markup with ARIA. But just because authors *can* do all sorts of crazy things doesn't mean they actually do them. (Authors do in fact do many crazy things. That said, custom UI widgets built with HTML, CSS, and JavaScript tend to suffer from "<div>itis," that is, the use of the semanticless <div> element to the exclusion of almost all other elements.)

In order to justify allowing extremely unusual element/role combinations (e.g. <h1 role=scrollbar>), some positive account of <h1> elements being used as scrollbars in the wild should be provided. Absent that, the utility to users of their conformance checker letting them know that they're doing something extremely weird is greater than the utility of repurposing such elements for such different roles.

2. Objections to the Change Proposal to not allow people to use ARIA to write inaccessible documents.

We have a Change Proposal to not allow people to use ARIA to write inaccessible documents. .

Keep in mind, you must actually state an objection, not merely cite someone else. If you feel that your objection has already been adequately addressed by someone else, then it is not necessary to repeat it.


Responder Objections to the Change Proposal to not allow people to use ARIA to write inaccessible documents.
Ian Hickson
Steve Faulkner http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5-hixiecounter
Tab Atkins Jr.
Richard Schwerdtfeger I object to this change proposal: My detailed response to this change proposal and to each of the editor's objection to the "ARIA in HTML5: change some role mappings " are included here:

David Bolter Similarly to my objection above. Why impose restrictions? I'm probably naive, but do specifications have to be exhaustive in this way to be effective?
Theresa O'Connor

More details on responses

  • Ian Hickson: last responded on 9, February 2011 at 20:41 (UTC)
  • Steve Faulkner: last responded on 10, February 2011 at 10:46 (UTC)
  • Tab Atkins Jr.: last responded on 10, February 2011 at 17:08 (UTC)
  • Richard Schwerdtfeger: last responded on 10, February 2011 at 18:55 (UTC)
  • David Bolter: last responded on 15, February 2011 at 16:38 (UTC)
  • Theresa O'Connor: last responded on 17, February 2011 at 19:00 (UTC)


The following persons have not answered the questionnaire:

  1. Tantek Çelik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
  2. Patrick D F Ion <pion@umich.edu>
  3. Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>
  4. Liam Quin <liam@w3.org>
  5. Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
  6. Chris Wilson <cwilso@google.com>
  7. David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk>
  8. James Helman <jhelman@movielabs.com>
  9. Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
  10. Chris Marrin <cmarrin@apple.com>
  11. Charles McCathie Nevile <chaals@yandex.ru>
  12. Philippe Le Hégaret <plh@w3.org>
  13. Don Brutzman <brutzman@nps.edu>
  14. T.V. Raman <raman@google.com>
  15. David Singer <singer@apple.com>
  16. Daniel Glazman <daniel.glazman@disruptive-innovations.com>
  17. Karl Dubost <karl@la-grange.net>
  18. Wu Chou <wu.chou@huawei.com>
  19. Katsuhiko Momoi <momoi@google.com>
  20. Kangchan Lee <chan@w3.org>
  21. Roy Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com>
  22. Deborah Dahl <dahl@conversational-technologies.com>
  23. Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>
  24. Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
  25. Jonathan Jeon <hollobit@etri.re.kr>
  26. David Hyatt <hyatt@apple.com>
  27. WonSuk Lee <wonsuk.lee@etri.re.kr>
  28. Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
  29. Robert Accettura <robert@accettura.com>
  30. Jonathan Watt <jwatt@jwatt.org>
  31. Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo <emmanuelle@sidar.org>
  32. Patrick Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
  33. David MacDonald <David100@sympatico.ca>
  34. Jack Jansen <jack@cwi.nl>
  35. Kazuhito Kidachi <k-kidachi@mitsue.co.jp>
  36. Markku Hakkinen <mhakkinen@ets.org>
  37. Jens Oliver Meiert <jens@meiert.com>
  38. Kazuyuki Ashimura <ashimura@w3.org>
  39. Han Xu <collin@w3china.org>
  40. Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
  41. Mark Crawford <mark.crawford@sap.com>
  42. Preety Kumar <preety.kumar@deque.com>
  43. Ian Fette <ifette@google.com>
  44. Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
  45. Stefan Schnabel <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>
  46. Jirka Kosek <jirka@kosek.cz>
  47. Travis Leithead <Travis.Leithead@microsoft.com>
  48. Youngsun Ryu <ysryu@samsung.com>
  49. Sierk Bornemann <sierkb@gmail.com>
  50. James Graham <james@hoppipolla.co.uk>
  51. Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@hsivonen.fi>
  52. Krijn Hoetmer <w3c@qontent.nl>
  53. Channy Yun <channy@gmail.com>
  54. Shane Thacker <shanethacker@gmail.com>
  55. Vilem Malek <murphy@malek.cz>
  56. Zhihong Mao <zhihong.mao@gmail.com>
  57. Benoit Piette <benoit.piette@gmail.com>
  58. Erik van Kempen <erikvankempen@gmail.com>
  59. Dimitri Glazkov <dglazkov@google.com>
  60. Nick Fitzsimons <w3@nickfitz.co.uk>
  61. Josh Lawton <w3c@joshlawton.com>
  62. S Emerson <w3c@accretewebsolutions.ca>
  63. Justin Anthony Knapp <justinkoavf@gmail.com>
  64. Simon Myers <Smylers@stripey.com>
  65. Samuel Weinig <weinig@apple.com>
  66. Alexey Proskuryakov <ap@webkit.org>
  67. Alejandro Fernandez <alejandro@mediadvanced.com>
  68. Doug Jones <doug_b_jones@me.com>
  69. Marc Drumm <mdrumm@wcupa.edu>
  70. Danny Liang <danny.glue@gmail.com>
  71. Michael Puls II <shadow2531@gmail.com>
  72. Ron Reisor <ron@udel.edu>
  73. Craig Buckler <craigbuckler@gmail.com>
  74. Dale Hudjik <dale.hudjik@gmail.com>
  75. James Cassell <w3c@cyberpear.com>
  76. Joseph D'Andrea <jdandrea@gmail.com>
  77. Eric Carlson <eric.carlson@apple.com>
  78. Don Kiely <donkiely@computer.org>
  79. David Child <dave@addedbytes.com>
  80. Mark DuBois <Mark@webprofessionals.org>
  81. David Bills <w3@dfbills.com>
  82. Nik Thierry <me@thisemail.ca>
  83. Andrew Ramsden <andrew@irama.org>
  84. John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
  85. Shefik Macauley <allknightaccess@gmail.com>
  86. Joe Steele <steele@adobe.com>
  87. John Vernaleo <john@netpurgatory.com>
  88. Jeremy Keith <jeremy@adactio.com>
  89. Jedi Lin <JediLin@Gmail.com>
  90. Jon Hughes <jon@phazm.com>
  91. Samuel Santos <samaxes@gmail.com>
  92. Dean Jackson <dino@apple.com>
  93. Mohammed DADAS <mohammed.dadas@orange.com>
  94. Sally Cain <sally.cain@rnib.org.uk>
  95. James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
  96. Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
  97. Jean-Pierre EVAIN <evain@ebu.ch>
  98. Mark Pilgrim <pilgrim@google.com>
  99. Matt Lee <mattl@cnuk.org>
  100. Magnus Olsson <magnus.olsson@ericsson.com>
  101. Chris Pearce <cpearce@mozilla.com>
  102. Andrew Wilson <atwilson@google.com>
  103. Per-Erik Brodin <per-erik.brodin@ericsson.com>
  104. Ojan Vafai <ojan@chromium.org>
  105. Martin McEvoy <martin@weborganics.co.uk>
  106. Aryeh Gregor <ayg@aryeh.name>
  107. Anders Bondehagen <anders@bondehagen.com>
  108. Steven Pemberton <Steven.Pemberton@cwi.nl>
  109. Raul Hudea <rhudea@adobe.com>
  110. Raghavan Gurumurthy <raghavan@adobe.com>
  111. Mayank Kumar <mayankk@adobe.com>
  112. Dragos Georgita <dgeorgit@adobe.com>
  113. Christopher Bank <cbank@adobe.com>
  114. Ole Riesenberg <or@oleriesenberg.com>
  115. Takuya Oikawa <takuya@google.com>
  116. Jatinder Mann <jmann@microsoft.com>
  117. Robert Stern <rstern@gmail.com>
  118. Eihab Ibrahim <eihabibrahim@gmail.com>
  119. Kensaku KOMATSU <kensaku.komatsu@gmail.com>
  120. Jer Noble <jer.noble@apple.com>
  121. Masatomo Kobayashi <mstm@jp.ibm.com>
  122. Peter Beverloo <beverloo@google.com>
  123. Andrew Scherkus <scherkus@google.com>
  124. Greg Johnson <greg.johnson@gmail.com>
  125. Martijn Croonen <martijn@martijnc.be>
  126. Stanley Manoski <manoski@mitre.org>
  127. Mounir Lamouri <mlamouri@google.com>
  128. Tony Gentilcore <tonyg@google.com>
  129. Joseph Pecoraro <pecoraro@apple.com>
  130. Bob Lund <b.lund@cablelabs.com>
  131. Tatsuya Igarashi <Tatsuya.Igarashi@sony.com>
  132. John Simmons <johnsim@microsoft.com>
  133. Mark Watson <watsonm@netflix.com>
  134. Clarke Stevens <c.stevens@cablelabs.com>
  135. Mark Vickers <mark_vickers@comcast.com>
  136. Jeremy LaCivita <jeremy.lacivita@comcast.com>
  137. Denis Ah-Kang <denis@w3.org>
  138. Alvar Laigna <laigna@gmail.com>
  139. Kunio Ito <kunio.ito@mail.rakuten.com>
  140. David Mays <david_mays@comcast.com>
  141. Michael Chen <michael_chen@comcast.com>
  142. jongyoul Park <jongyoul@etri.re.kr>
  143. Reinaldo Ferraz <reinaldo@nic.br>
  144. Eva Lingyun Jing <jinglingyun@baidu.com>
  145. GANG LIANG <gang.liang@huawei.com>
  146. Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@apple.com>
  147. Gian Luca Marroni <gmarroni@libero.it>
  148. Ian Devlin <ian@iandevlin.com>
  149. Xingrong Guo <guoxingrong@baidu.com>
  150. Jet Villegas <w3c@junglecode.net>
  151. Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
  152. Hasan Savran <hsavran@kent.edu>
  153. Eric VonColln <eric.voncolln@navy.mil>
  154. Rayi Lei <leiyi@baidu.com>
  155. David Dorwin <ddorwin@google.com>
  156. jiexuan gao <gaojiexuan@baidu.com>
  157. Xiaoqing Yang <yangxiaoqing@baidu.com>
  158. Aaron Colwell <acolwell@google.com>
  159. Alex Giladi <alex.giladi@huawei.com>
  160. Motomasa Futagami <mares@paoz.net>
  161. Kevin Streeter <kstreete@adobe.com>
  162. Christian Kaiser <kaiserc@google.com>
  163. Xuejian Li <lixuejian@baidu.com>
  164. Zuncheng Yang <yangzuncheng@baidu.com>
  165. Qianglong Zheng <zhengqianglong@baidu.com>
  166. Zhou Shen <shenzhou@baidu.com>
  167. Duoyi Wu <wuduoyi@baidu.com>
  168. Zheng Jia <jiazheng@baidu.com>
  169. Weifeng Feng <fengweifeng@baidu.com>
  170. Damin Hu <hudamin@baidu.com>
  171. Yang Liu <liuyang12@baidu.com>
  172. Zhixing Lei <leizhixing@baidu.com>
  173. Honggang Tang <tanghonggang@baidu.com>
  174. Kefeng Li <buaadallas@gmail.com>
  175. Xu Ma <maxu@baidu.com>
  176. Junzhong Liu <liujunzhong@baidu.com>
  177. Stefan Kaiser <stefan.kaiser@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
  178. Stefan Pham <stefan.pham@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
  179. Ami Fischman <fischman@google.com>
  180. Arnaud Braud <arnaud.braud@orange.com>
  181. Futomi Hatano <futomi.hatano@newphoria.co.jp>
  182. Bram Tullemans <tullemans@ebu.ch>
  183. Petr Peterka <ppeterka@verimatrix.com>
  184. lei wang <wanglei03@baidu.com>
  185. Milan Patel <Milan.Patel@huawei.com>
  186. Yiling Gu <guyiling@baidu.com>
  187. Zefa Xiong <xiongzefa@baidu.com>
  188. shanglin chen <chenshanglin@baidu.com>
  189. Ping Wu <wuping02@baidu.com>
  190. Bin Chen <chenbin01@baidu.com>
  191. Youichi Takashima <takashima.youichi@lab.ntt.co.jp>
  192. Patrick Ladd <Pat_Ladd2@comcast.com>
  193. Norifumi Kikkawa <norifumi.kikkawa@jp.sony.com>
  194. Hao Jing <jh.jinghao@huawei.com>
  195. Glenn Deen <glenn.deen@nbcuni.com>
  196. Lei Wang <wanglei@baidu.com>
  197. Tom Handal <thandal@verimatrix.com>
  198. Pengcheng Guo <guopengcheng@baidu.com>
  199. Tom Wiltzius <wiltzius@google.com>
  200. Pierre-Anthony Lemieux <pal@sandflow.com>
  201. Xie Jianhui <xiejianhui@baidu.com>
  202. Yujie Jiang <jiangyujie@baidu.com>
  203. Kazuhiko Takabayashi <kazuhiko.takabayashi@jp.sony.com>
  204. Brady Eidson <beidson@apple.com>
  205. Michael Thornburgh <mthornbu@adobe.com>
  206. Mick Hakobyan <mhakobyan@netflix.com>
  207. Vladimir Sinelnikov <sinelnikov@gmail.com>
  208. Chris Wong <huanghoujin@baidu.com>
  209. Yiliang LIU <liuyiliang@baidu.com>
  210. mingqiang zhang <imcnan@gmail.com>
  211. Suzanne Taylor <Suzanne.Taylor@pearson.com>
  212. Grzegorz Babula <gbabula@gmail.com>
  213. Brian Kardell <hitchjs@gmail.com>
  214. xueliang fan <fanxueliang@baidu.com>
  215. Niels Thorwirth <nthorwirth@verimatrix.com>
  216. David Evans <david.evans@rd.bbc.co.uk>
  217. Joseph Karr O'Connor <josephoconnor@mac.com>
  218. Yusuke Kagiwada <block.rxckin.beats@gmail.com>
  219. smallni ding <smallniding@tencent.com>
  220. Jim Walsh <jim@jwalshcreative.com>
  221. Greg Davis <greg.davis@pearson.com>
  222. Gabino Alonso <gabinovincent@gmail.com>
  223. Sam Langdon <sam.langdon@hachette.co.uk>
  224. Michael Kelly <mkelly@mozilla.com>
  225. Xiaoqian Wu <xiaoqian@w3.org>
  226. Yue Min <minyue@baidu.com>
  227. Min Li <limin04@baidu.com>
  228. Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
  229. Pedro Xavier Jorge <pedro.xavierjorge@gmail.com>
  230. Akira Torii <Torii.Akira@bp.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  231. So Vang <svang@nab.org>
  232. Nathalia Sautchuk Patrício <nathalia@nic.br>
  233. Vicente García Díaz <vicegd@live.com>
  234. Shinya Maruyama <Shinya.Maruyama@jp.sony.com>
  235. Yusuke Yokosuka <Yokosuka.Yusuke@bx.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  236. John Riviello <john_riviello@comcast.com>
  237. yaolong wang <wangyaolong@baidu.com>
  238. Tao Liang <liangtao01@baidu.com>
  239. Glenn Eguchi <geguchi@adobe.com>
  240. Lukáš Čihák <lukas.cihak@mensa.cz>
  241. WOOGLAE KIM <wlkim@inswave.com>
  242. Min Ren <minren@tencent.com>
  243. Jason White <jjwhite@ets.org>
  244. Hyejin Lee <hjlee@html5forum.or.kr>
  245. Richard Grzeczkowski <richard_grzeczkowski@comcast.com>
  246. Pascal Perrot <pascal.perrot@orange.com>
  247. Dapeng Liu <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
  248. Matthew Wolenetz <wolenetz@google.com>
  249. Cory Heslip <cory_heslip@comcast.com>
  250. Shaohang Yang <shaohang.ysh@alibaba-inc.com>
  251. Seiji Okumura <Okumura.Seiji@bc.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  252. Eiji Yamamoto <Yamamoto.Eiji@db.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  253. Ali C. Begen <ali_begen@comcast.com>
  254. HENGBING LIU <herbertliu@tencent.com>

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