W3C

- DRAFT -

Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

08 Nov 2012

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Noah, Jeni, Jonathan, Henry, Yves, Peter
Regrets
Chair
Noah Mendelsohn
Scribe
Jeni Tennison

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 08 November 2012

<scribe> ScribeNick: JeniT

<scribe> Scribe: Jeni Tennison

Convene

Approval of minutes

noah: we paused to let Jonathan have a look at them

jar: I haven't given them a thorough going over

<Noah> F2F minutes: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/07-agenda

ht: when I last looked, there were several lines that needed looking at

[we look]

<Noah> E.g. noah: if you were to come across shorthand properties ... not proven Noah, scribe needs help here

<Noah> I could just leave that as a true record of the scribe's uncertainty

<jar> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/08-minutes#item02

ht: the four places that need attention are for Noah, TimBL and Ashok
... Larry asked me to clean this up; all these notes are from me
... I'm happy to approve if the red lines were replaced by something in black that says [scribe needs direction]

<Noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/07-agenda

<jar> Change "X, scribe needs help here" to "[scribe missed]"

RESOLUTION: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/07-agenda as a true record, subject to ht changing red text as appropriate

<Noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/25-minutes

RESOLUTION: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/25-minutes

<Noah> ACTION: Noah to take draft warnings off F2F minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-765 - Take draft warnings off F2F minutes [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-11-15].

<ht> HST has checked 2012/10/08-minutes.html back in with scribe-not-sure notes, so I'm happy

Administrative Items

<Noah> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2010OctDec/0001.html

noah: a typo in the Architecture of the World Wide Web

jar: I can't see what's wrong with the text that's there

<Noah> Original: When two specifications are orthogonal, one may change one without

<Noah> requiring...

jar: I didn't think the proposed text was an improvement

<Noah> I read that as "When two specifications are orthogonal, one may change one of the specifications without

<Noah> requiring..."

noah: I can't remember if we have a bug list for webarch

ht: there are a number of entries in the errata
... I think it's worth entering in the errata list
... I think it probably is a typo

noah: I read it just fine

ht: using 'one' as a generic subject instead of 'you may change one'

<jar> interference between two referents of "one"

ht: I think Ian meant 'one may change without changing the other'
... this is a definition of orthogonality

noah: we could say 'not worth changing' or task someone to create an entry for the errata

jar: there's no question about meaning here

yves: it's clear to non-negative speakers, so I don't see the point of changing it

<Noah> "When two specifications are orthogonal, one may change one without

<Noah> requiring..."

<jar> a specification cannot require anything of anything

"When two specifications are orthogonal, one may change one without requiring changes to the other, even if one has dependencies on the other."

<Noah> "When two specifications are orthogonal, one may change one without requiring changes to the other, even if one has dependencies on the other"

timbl: it would be easier in French

<timbl> on .. un .. autre

<jar> one *may be changed*

no

<jar> it would be possible to improve the prose, but doing so is not important right now ...

jenit: we should not change it

timbl: this isn't an editable spec

noah: we have errata

<Noah> . ACTION: Noah to respond to e-mail on AWWW "typo" saying TAG did not agree that a change was needed

<Noah> ACTION: Noah to respond to e-mail on AWWW "typo" saying TAG did not agree that a change was needed [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-766 - Respond to e-mail on AWWW "typo" saying TAG did not agree that a change was needed [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-11-15].

Close pending Actions without discussion

<Noah> ACTION-750?

<trackbot> ACTION-750 -- Henry Thompson to contact Ian about TAG participation in TPAC -- see minutes of 8 Oct late afternoon -- due 2012-10-30 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/750

<Noah> close ACTION-750

<trackbot> ACTION-750 Contact Ian about TAG participation in TPAC -- see minutes of 8 Oct late afternoon closed

TPAC

noah: people from TPAC should let us know what happened

ht: I did 5 mins at AC meeting Tuesday evening
... slides are linked from AC meeting, which is member only
... Jeni did her 3 mins during lightning talks

noah: were people interested in the election?

jenit: yes, there were some people who have decided to run

noah: any other TPAC news?

ht: we had a table at lunch with the AB, including Jeff but not Tim
... we didn't talk about elections
... the most concrete thing was interest in co-locating in the coming year and sharing half a day

noah: did anyone have ideas about logistics?

ht: not particularly

jenit: we talked about trying to get the AB to vote on priorities for the TAG

<ht> HST TPAC slides [member only]: https://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/ht-tpac2012-tag.html

JT TPAC slides: http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/jt-tpac2012-plenary/assets/fallback/index.html

ht: one technical topic that was busy in the corridors
... the state of documents about URLs, and where they're going to be taken forward
... and how W3C/IETF/WHATWG relations should be managed

Issue list for Jeff Jaffe

<Noah> Discussion from London: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/08-minutes#item04

<Noah> Brainstorming: HTTP 2.0, (LM says benchmarking, performance)

<Noah> URL issues

<Noah> Larry said Web security in crisis

<Noah> Ashok mentioned cloud and security

<Noah> ACTION-753?

<trackbot> ACTION-753 -- Larry Masinter to do first draft of technical issues list for Jeff -- due 2012-10-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/753

noah: does anyone want to add anything, for Larry's benefit?

<Noah> silence

<Noah> ACTION-692?

<trackbot> ACTION-692 -- Noah Mendelsohn to consider JAR's april request to discuss, for 10 mins, issues list at oct f2f -- due 2012-09-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/692

TAG Issues List

noah: wanted to give jar a chance to express concerns about this

jar: this actions is related to the objectives matrix
... I'm happy to let it get absorbed into what happens with the matrix
... I thought it was a cool thing and I hoped someone else would do something with it

noah: there's a question about how to apply it

jar: I wanted to push the work on applications and offline storage and that kind of thing
... I wanted it to be driven by objectives considerations, not just people asking what we should do here
... the question being what should we do in general

noah: we could spend some time looking at the issues list now

jar: the matrix has links to most of the open issues

<Noah> ACTION-692?

<trackbot> ACTION-692 -- Noah Mendelsohn to consider JAR's april request to discuss, for 10 mins, issues list at oct f2f -- due 2012-09-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/692

<Noah> close ACTION-692

<trackbot> ACTION-692 consider JAR's april request to discuss, for 10 mins, issues list at oct f2f closed

<Noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/open

noah: we've had yearly since the start of the TAG an issues list, which in the early life of the TAG was how we worked out what to work on
... I never intended the actions or product pages to replace the issues list
... they were there to emphasise delivery
... but it means it's been over a year since we looked at the set of issues

jar: there's too many to go over right now

noah: I'd like to bite off 2-4 each week

jar: I think it's more productive to look at the objectives

noah: the issues list is called out in our charter

<jar> the objectives matrix organizes the issues list

noah: can you give us a link to the matrix?

<jar> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/objectives-matrix

<Noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/objectives-matrix-20120930

<timbl> $ curl -I http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/objectives-matrix

<timbl> HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found

jar: last column of matrix gives a link to the issues list
... this gives you a way to group the issues

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/49

noah: we have schemes in URIs like http: and protocols like HTTP
... and it would be good to know what the relationship was between them
... people disagreed about what the association was
... whether http: means use HTTP
... the issue was left open because the community and the TAG didn't agree
... we couldn't straighten it out
... my sense is leave it open, and periodically ask if we want to revisit it

jar: I think it's related to ISSUE-57

jenit: do the new web+ protocols have any impact?

noah: we couldn't even tell a clean story about http: and HTTP

timbl: we should never try to tell the exact story about everything
... the important message to show direction is that http: URLs are used as names in the architecture
... and you do other things with them apart from using them in HTTP
... but using the HTTP protocol has a special status
... and the protocol may evolve a whole lot
... what the default thing to do with an http: URL may change a whole lot in the future, and still be called HTTP

<Noah> The several drafts that were written were under various dated versions of http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/SchemeProtocols.html

<Noah> I think the question was: if I see http:xxxx, can I try to get at it with a protocol other than HTTP

noah: there were some drafts created and discussed
... I thought the fundamental question was, if I have a http: URL, that the HTTP GET is authoritative
... behind the HTTP could be a FTP, can I do an FTP?
... where in the specs does it say you can or can't use an http: URL with a FTP protocol
... I expected that protocol-like schemes would be associated with protocols
... then there's a question about what HTTP is anyway, and whether they're forwards and backwards compatible

jar: I'm worried there's no customer for this issue

noah: that's ok, we can just leave it open
... I backed off because I didn't see who would benefit if we pursued it

jenit: maybe web+ and SPDY mean it might be worth revisiting

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66

jar: my assignment of issues in the matrix is sometimes quite arbitrary

timbl: I think it's a great matrix

noah: this is relatively recent, opened two years ago as an umbrella for Larry's work on mime and the web
... the question I'd put is, is there more here
... or should we close this issue

jar: do we know what the role of mime is in the web architecture?

noah: I don't think we're ever going to look at this issue and say we're done with it

jar: I notice he put it under the webarch maintenance product
... this is an issue that feels like a product

<Noah> issue-37?

<trackbot> ISSUE-37 -- Definition of abstract components with namespace namesand frag ids -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/37

<Noah> issue-40?

<trackbot> ISSUE-40 -- What are good practices for URI construction? -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/40

jenit: fragid & mime types work is related to ISSUE-66

<Noah> issue-45?

<trackbot> ISSUE-45 -- What is the appropriate level of granularity of themedia type mechanism? -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/45

<Noah> issue-50?

<trackbot> ISSUE-50 -- URIs, URNs, "location independent" naming systems and associated registries for naming on the Web -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/50

noah: I don't know how to use the issues in a way that's effective and time-efficient
... part of me wants to close them all and see which ones re-open

timbl: maybe not worry about issues being open, just have two states: ones we're working on and ones we aren't

noah: we have products that are related to issues

jar: we could use 'pending review' for the issues not being worked on

noah: what we're working on is clear, but it's not clear how the issues relate to what we're working on

<jar> 'pending review' could be code for: we've not made headway in the past 2 years. trying to close

noah: I'm worried that they're stale

jar: the problem is that you feel an obligation to use the issue list
... I suggest setting them all as 'pending review' and turning the ones that we're working on to 'open'

jenit: there is 'postponed'

noah: that would work

jar: we have no postponed issues right now
... I suggest setting all the open issues except those provably active to 'postponed'

noah: I can ask for a list of issues that people think are open

jar: err on the side of postponing them

<Noah> ACTION: Noah to propose division of issues into OPEN/POSTPONED, etc. Due 2013-10-8 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-767 - Propose division of issues into OPEN/POSTPONED, etc. Due 2013-10-8 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-11-15].

<Noah> ACTION-767 Due 2013-01-08

<trackbot> ACTION-767 Propose division of issues into OPEN/POSTPONED, etc. Due 2013-10-8 due date now 2013-01-08

Face-to-face

noah: there's still some vagueness about where we're going to have F2F
... Jan 15th

<Noah> RESOLUTION: TAG will meet 15-17 January, tentatively at Adobe West Coast, but may switch to Cambridge depending on Noah, Tim Jeni availability.

<Noah> [more discussion]

<Noah> RESOLUTION: The TAG will (probably) meet in Cambridge March 19-21 2013

<Noah> Those are from the F2F

noah: anyone with strong feelings about location should let me know

Adjourned

<Noah> ADJOURNED

<timbl> Noah, TAG f2f??

<timbl> scheduled for 2013-03-19 to 2013-03-21

<timbl> Location: Cambridge MA

<timbl> I have that down as East coast NOT west coast

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Noah to propose division of issues into OPEN/POSTPONED, etc. Due 2013-10-8 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to respond to e-mail on AWWW "typo" saying TAG did not agree that a change was needed [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to take draft warnings off F2F minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action01]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.136 (CVS log)
$Date: 2012-11-28 23:19:34 $