W3C

TAG teleconference

20 Jan 2011

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Jonathan Rees, Larry Masinter, TV Raman, Noah Mendelsohn, Ashok Malhotra, Dan Appelquist, Yves Lafon, Henry Thompson, John Kemp
Regrets
Chair
Noah
Scribe
Yves

Contents


<jar> Scribe: Yves

Agenda for next week will include 'mime on the web' document

no regrets

jar to scribe

approval of minutes

RESOLUTION: Minutes of 13 january 2011 ( http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes ) are approved

administrative items

status report has been published

f2f is in 3 weeks, need to work on the agenda

<DKA> I will be there.

yves will participate remotely

the meeting room will be announced

<noah> ACTION: Noah to do F2F local arrangements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-512 - Do F2F local arrangements [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-01-27].

<noah> ACTION: Noah to do F2F agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-513 - Do F2F agenda [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-01-27].

<noah> ACTION-511?

<trackbot> ACTION-511 -- Larry Masinter to send email framing TAG work on registries -- due 2011-01-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/511

Possible topics for the f2f might include... client-side storage, ietf prague meeting and related issues, persistent domain and Larry's tdb, HTML-XML with Norm Walsh, registries (see action-511), also 10th anniversary of the TAG

<DKA> How about: deep linking?

jar: time to talk about AWWSW

<Larry> architecture of the world wide semantic web

DKA: widget and offline applications, trying to unify approaches taken in widget, webapps and HTML5's appcache

<jar> action-201?

<trackbot> ACTION-201 -- Jonathan Rees to report on status of AWWSW discussions -- due 2011-01-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/201

Noah: might be good to have an email discussion to start work on this topic

DKA: also API minimization

<Larry> TAG products: W3C architecture web site. Meet with W3C staff (Jaffee, others) to talk about TAG products, involvement with WG chartering & architecture

Noah: same, we need an email to frame discussions

<DKA> +1

DKA was +1ing meeting with Jeff or Ian

<DKA> Lunch with Jeff might be a good idea.

Overdue Action Items

DKA: a few AI needs to be retired

<noah> ACTION-390?

<trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

DKA: we need to figure out how to make progress on this issue

<Larry> issue-59 is related to deep linking

Yves: There was a discussion after Wilileaks denial of service. Is this related to such resilience issues?

<Larry> taking the direction on ISSUE-58 like "deep linking", we could document what we know about the issue and what the considerations are, and write a "best practices" around it

<Zakim> ht, you wanted to talk about w3c persistent resources

DKA: agree that it makes sense

<jar> ... and P2P HTTP

<Larry> or even a blog post

ht: we can have a slot even a small one on that topic of the f2f, I made an XML Catalog and handed that over to the systeam, need to track progress there.

<Zakim> Larry, you wanted to suggest a "note"

we can ask Ted Guild to join for a few minutes on that topic

Larry: it is appropriate to do a note, a blog post or something like that to close the action (re: issue-58)

Noah: we don't have consensus yet on the resolution

<Larry> I think it's possible to document the divergent opinions and note that there isn't consensus, and that doing so is a valuable exercise

DKA: if we can't agree during the f2f on progress there, we should drop it.

Larry: I disagree that we need consensus on solutions to make progress on documenting the problem and possible solutions

<DKA> I could change the name of the action to "write up a problem statement definition draft" prior to the f2f.

<noah> ACTION-439?

<trackbot> ACTION-439 -- Daniel Appelquist to introduce signature-based approaches to access control -- due 2010-10-14 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/439

Larry: it's the same issue in "Mime and the Web", not sure about solutions, but it's valuable to outline the issues

<Larry> +1 DKA if you would do so

DKA: action 439 should be dropped

<noah> close ACTION-439

<trackbot> ACTION-439 Introduce signature-based approaches to access control closed

<noah> ACTION-461?

<trackbot> ACTION-461 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft "finding" on Web Apps API design -- due 2010-12-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/461

<noah> ACTION-488?

<trackbot> ACTION-488 -- Daniel Appelquist to solicit at TPAC perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 -- due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/488

DKA: we should convert this action to a concrete one on API minimization

Noah: if we decide to do a more general finding on web apps API then we should keep this one

DKA: After Lyon's meeting, I think that we need to work on smaller issues

<noah> ACTION: Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-514 - Draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-01-27].

<noah> close ACTION-461

<trackbot> ACTION-461 Draft "finding" on Web Apps API design closed

<noah> ACTION-480?

<trackbot> ACTION-480 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents Due: 2010-11-01 -- due 2010-11-09 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480

<noah> ACTION-480 Due 2011-02-01

<trackbot> ACTION-480 Draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents Due: 2010-11-01 due date now 2011-02-01

<noah> ACTION-484?

<trackbot> ACTION-484 -- Daniel Appelquist to alert chairs, ac-forum, www-tag of TAG availability for Monday session at TPAC -- due 2010-10-27 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/484

<noah> close ACTION-484

<trackbot> ACTION-484 Alert chairs, ac-forum, www-tag of TAG availability for Monday session at TPAC closed

<noah> ACTION-488?

<trackbot> ACTION-488 -- Daniel Appelquist to solicit at TPAC perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 -- due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/488

<noah> close ACTION-488

<trackbot> ACTION-488 Solicit at TPAC perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 closed

<noah> ACTION-489?

<trackbot> ACTION-489 -- Daniel Appelquist to prepare early draft of TAG thoughts on implications of Evercookie. Due: 2010-12-08 -- due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/489

<Larry> i think this is subsumed by privacy actions

DKA: might be linked to action-509, so we should close 489

Larry: the problems that evercookie explore are not covered by web architecture

like cleaning local storage for cookies

Noah: how about client-side storage work from Ashok?
... Evercookie is client-side storage

Larry: it's not explicit client-side storage, as it uses fingerprinting
... we need to make sure that client-side storage work mention evercookie

<noah> ACTION-475?

<trackbot> ACTION-475 -- Ashok Malhotra to write finding on client-side storage, DanA to review -- due 2011-03-21 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/475

Ashok's action amended to reflect that

<noah> close ACTION-489?

<noah> close ACTION-489

<trackbot> ACTION-489 Prepare early draft of TAG thoughts on implications of Evercookie. Due: 2010-12-08 closed

<noah> close ACTION-495

<trackbot> ACTION-495 Organize something with Geo for Friday morning. closed

<noah> ACTION-505?

<trackbot> ACTION-505 -- Daniel Appelquist to start a document wrt issue-25 -- due 2010-12-09 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/505

<noah> ISSUE-25?

<trackbot> ISSUE-25 -- What to say in defense of principle that deep linking is not an illegal act? -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/25

DKA: document started, quite empty for now

need to start an email discussion on what we should put there

<DKA> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/rightToLink.html

Noah: how about bumping the due date and have an action to start discussion?

<noah> ACTION-505 Due 2011-01-25

<trackbot> ACTION-505 Start a document wrt issue-25 due date now 2011-01-25

<noah> ACTION-507?

<trackbot> ACTION-507 -- Daniel Appelquist to with Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on privacy -- due 2011-01-19 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/507

Noah: should we discuss this at the f2f?

DKA: bump the due date after the f2f

<noah> ACTION-507 Due 2011-03-01

<trackbot> ACTION-507 With Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on privacy due date now 2011-03-01

Web Application State

everybody read this week or last week's version of the document

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/HashInURI-20110115

Ashok: I will work on Yves' comment on the next version of the document.
... We need to work on what we want to recommend
... actually sections 4 and 5

Noah: it would be great to discuss the pro and cons of the two main solutions

Ashok: when I asked why they were using one solution r the other, I got back "it's how they did it" as a reply

Noah: we might change the title of the document as mentionning the hash sigh seems like implementation detail

Larry: wondering if we are looking at this through the right side of the telescope. We need to say "how do you design an app that will use URIs in a meaningful way"

from the point of view, not of the user, but of the implementer.

Noah: in agreement
... things like being able to email an URI that will convey the right meaning in the context of email and not the JS program

The document should answer questions like when to use # sign or ?

Larry: as a user you don't have the choice, it's the app designer who make this decision

<Zakim> ht, you wanted to try to uplevel even further

ht: we might go even higher up. People are building application for web brwosers to have apps on the desktop. The crucial bit of advice is about choosing uri for wide use. But it's also possible to have names that are not used for wide distributon

<noah> HT: Not all of these names are meant for wide use

<noah> Google maps names >are< intended for wide use

ht: ex, in emacs, my message number are local only
... the fact that web software make easy to create uris for that is generating the issue, like using numbering that is not meant for broadcast

Yves: Responding to Larry's point on talking to designers. My note talked in part about implementation details such as ability to push something into a CDN because you used #, has an impact.
... I agree we need high level views, but implementation details are important too

Ashok: I had a paragraph related to the CNN use case where they create private URIs

<Zakim> noah, you wanted to say I want to emphasize names that are meant for wide use

<Ashok> Noah: yes, some states/URIs are private but sometimes these are used in other contexts ... so be careful

Noah: while application can have pprivate state changes, it may be an issue that apps are choosing private URIs for things that needs a wider audience, like email identifier

<Zakim> johnk, you wanted to wonder whether we should include the usage of # to hide metadata from the Referer usage in this document?

<johnk> http://waterken.sourceforge.net/web-key/#where

john: value before the # can be used for ACL and value after the # can be used locallly as not sent to the server

<johnk> example URI: <https://www.example.com/app/#mhbqcmmva5ja3>

Noah: Ashok, will you rearrange all the architectural questions? (general ones and ones under the CNN example)

Ashok: will work on that

<Ashok> I agree

Noah: between sections 3 and 4 would be ideal

Ashok: I will write (at worst possible changes, if not all changes) before the f2f

<Ashok> Yves, comments most welcome

<noah> ACTION-481 Due 2011-03-01

<trackbot> ACTION-481 Update client-side state document with help from Raman due date now 2011-03-01

Yves: In MediaFragment, If you're using # for video addressing, you're implying the secondary is part of the primary

<noah> Doesn't that actually depend on the media type registration for the video type?

<ht> http://www.example.org/tool?param=7 is _intimately_ related to http://www.exmaple.org/tool !

<Zakim> ht, you wanted to disagree with Yves!

Ashok: I mentionned issues with relations to byte ranges as well

Yves: In the case of ?, the with-parameter version has nothing to do with the w/o the parameter version, for the client

HT: Did you mean that in the ? mark case the resources have nothing to do with each other?

Yves: Yes

ht: there is a difference between being 'by the book' not related and the reality, like http://www.example.com/USA/ma/bos/xxx and http://www.example.com/USA/ma/bos

Larry: what would be the relation there?

ht: it identify a parameter fonction

Larry: which things are generic to URIs and which things are http-related?

<noah> So http://example.org/stuffcontainer?thingid={GUID} is bad practice? I don't believe that.

<noah> The point of this example is that GUID1 and GUID2 might denote quite unrelated resources.

<Larry> does this apply only to "http:" or to all URIs?

<Larry> there is a relationship between scheme://host/path and scheme://host/path?query in that the query can be created by a form with scheme://host/path as the target

<ht> As far as I am concerned, I thought the http spec. _did_ enforce that foo.html?a=b and foo.html?c=d and foo.html all are handled by the same 'resource'. . .

noah: my concern is that using '#' sign is not a indication that it's a part of the resource without the '#' sign

<Larry> note that mime-web-info talks about defining fragment identifiers....

Yves: My comment was on the media fragments, and in that specific case there are some loose ends on media type registration

<noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue

overdue action

<noah> ACTION-381?

<trackbot> ACTION-381 -- Jonathan Rees to spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ -- due 2011-01-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381

<noah> ACTION-381 Due 2011-02-11

<trackbot> ACTION-381 Spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ due date now 2011-02-11

Noah: let's put that on the best-effort list

<noah> ACTION-390?

<trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390

<noah> Yves will contribute on ACTION-390

<noah> ACTION-390 Due 2011-03-01

<trackbot> ACTION-390 Review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps due date now 2011-03-01

AOB?

none

ADJOURNED

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to do F2F agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to do F2F local arrangements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2011/03/01 03:45:28 $