18:05:43 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 18:05:43 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc 18:06:07 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/20-agenda 18:06:19 Scribe: Yves 18:06:43 Agenda for next week will include 'mime on the web' document 18:06:50 no regrets 18:06:52 jar to scribe 18:07:06 Topic: approval of minutes 18:07:36 RESOLUTION: Minutes of 14 january 2011 ( http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes ) are approved 18:07:47 Topic: administrative items 18:08:03 status report has been published 18:08:30 I will be there. 18:09:02 f2f is in 3 weeks, need to work on the agenda 18:09:46 yves will participate remotely 18:10:25 the meeting room will be announced 18:10:37 ACTION: Noah to do F2F local arrangements 18:10:38 Created ACTION-512 - Do F2F local arrangements [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-01-27]. 18:10:43 ACTION: Noah to do F2F agenda 18:10:43 Created ACTION-513 - Do F2F agenda [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-01-27]. 18:12:12 ACTION-511? 18:12:12 ACTION-511 -- Larry Masinter to send email framing TAG work on registries -- due 2011-01-20 -- OPEN 18:12:12 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/511 18:12:33 Possible topics for the f2f might include... client-side storage, ietf prague meeting and related issues, persistent domain and Larry's tdb, HTML-XML with Norm Walsh, registries (see action-511), also 10th anniversary of the TAG 18:12:50 How about: deep linking? 18:12:59 zakim, unmute me 18:12:59 DKA should no longer be muted 18:13:27 jar: time to talk about XXX 18:13:36 s/XXX/AWWSW/ 18:13:46 architecture of the world wide semantic web 18:14:33 DKA: widget and offline applications, trying to unify approaches taken in widget, webapps and HTML5's appcache 18:14:37 action-201? 18:14:37 ACTION-201 -- Jonathan Rees to report on status of AWWSW discussions -- due 2011-01-25 -- OPEN 18:14:37 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/201 18:15:06 Noah: might be good to have an email discussion to start work on this topic 18:15:15 DKA: also API minimization 18:15:17 TAG products: W3C architecture web site. Meet with W3C staff (Jaffee, others) to talk about TAG products, involvement with WG chartering & architecture 18:15:45 q+ to suggest above on F2F 18:17:11 Noah: same, we need an email to frame discussions 18:17:33 +1 18:17:57 zakim, unmute me 18:17:57 DKA should no longer be muted 18:18:23 DKA was +1ing meeting with Jeff or Ian 18:19:23 Lunch with Jeff might be a good idea. 18:20:40 Topic: Overdue Action Items 18:20:44 +John_Kemp 18:21:29 DKA: a few AI needs to be retired 18:21:33 ACTION-390? 18:21:33 ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN 18:21:33 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390 18:22:24 Q? 18:22:30 DKA: we need to figure out how to make progress on this issue 18:22:35 q? 18:22:38 q+ ht to talk about w3c persistent resources 18:22:38 q- 18:22:55 issue-59 is related to deep linking 18:23:02 Q? 18:23:07 ack next 18:23:33 YL: There was a discussion after Wilileaks denial of service. Is this related to such reslience issues? 18:23:41 ack next 18:23:41 taking the direction on ISSUE-58 like "deep linking", we could document what we know about the issue and what the considerations are, and write a "best practices" around it 18:23:42 ht, you wanted to talk about w3c persistent resources 18:23:47 DKA: agree that it makes sense 18:23:49 ... and P2P HTTP 18:24:01 q+ to suggest a "note" 18:24:07 or even a blog post 18:24:42 ht: we can have a slot even a small one on that topic of the f2f, I made an XML Catalog and handed that over to the systeam, need to track progress there. 18:24:57 ack next 18:24:58 Larry, you wanted to suggest a "note" 18:25:00 q+\ 18:25:02 we can ask Ted Guild to join for a few minutes on that topic 18:25:07 q-\ 18:25:09 q+ 18:25:45 Larry: it is appropriate to do a note, a blog post or something like that to close the action (re: issue-58) 18:26:09 Noah: we don't have consensus yet on the resolution 18:26:18 I think it's possible to document the divergent opinions and note that there isn't consensus, and that doing so is a valuable exercise 18:27:28 DKA: if we can't agree during the f2f on progress there, we should drop it. 18:28:19 Larry: I disagree that we need consensus on solutions to make progress on documenting the problem and possible solutions 18:28:40 I could change the name of the action to "write up a problem statement definition draft" prior to the f2f. 18:29:27 ACTION-439? 18:29:27 ACTION-439 -- Daniel Appelquist to introduce signature-based approaches to access control -- due 2010-10-14 -- OPEN 18:29:27 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/439 18:29:33 Larry: it's the same issue in "Mime and the Web", not sure about solutions, but it's valuable to outline the issues 18:29:36 +1 DKA if you would do so 18:30:05 DKA: action 439 should be dropped 18:30:08 close ACTION-439 18:30:08 ACTION-439 Introduce signature-based approaches to access control closed 18:30:20 ACTION-461? 18:30:21 ACTION-461 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft "finding" on Web Apps API design -- due 2010-12-31 -- OPEN 18:30:21 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/461 18:31:14 ACTION-488? 18:31:14 ACTION-488 -- Daniel Appelquist to solicit at TPAC perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 -- due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN 18:31:14 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/488 18:31:27 DKA: we should convert this action to a concrete one on API minimization 18:32:10 Noah: if we decide to do a more general finding on web apps API then we should keep this one 18:32:31 q? 18:32:33 DKA: After Lyon's meeting, I think that we need to work on smaller issues 18:34:12 ACTION: Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 18:34:13 Created ACTION-514 - Draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-01-27]. 18:34:59 close ACTION-461 18:34:59 ACTION-461 Draft "finding" on Web Apps API design closed 18:35:13 ACTION-480? 18:35:13 ACTION-480 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents Due: 2010-11-01 -- due 2010-11-09 -- OPEN 18:35:13 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480 18:35:28 ACTION-480 Due 2011-02-01 18:35:28 ACTION-480 Draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents Due: 2010-11-01 due date now 2011-02-01 18:35:36 ACTION-484? 18:35:36 ACTION-484 -- Daniel Appelquist to alert chairs, ac-forum, www-tag of TAG availability for Monday session at TPAC -- due 2010-10-27 -- OPEN 18:35:36 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/484 18:35:43 close ACTION-484 18:35:43 ACTION-484 Alert chairs, ac-forum, www-tag of TAG availability for Monday session at TPAC closed 18:35:50 ACTION-488? 18:35:50 ACTION-488 -- Daniel Appelquist to solicit at TPAC perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 -- due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN 18:35:50 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/488 18:35:55 close ACTION-488 18:35:55 ACTION-488 Solicit at TPAC perspectives on what TAG could/should do on APIs Due: 2010-11-09 closed 18:36:03 ACTION-489? 18:36:03 ACTION-489 -- Daniel Appelquist to prepare early draft of TAG thoughts on implications of Evercookie. Due: 2010-12-08 -- due 2010-10-28 -- OPEN 18:36:03 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/489 18:36:31 zakim, who is talking? 18:36:42 noah, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jonathan_Rees (34%), Ashok (9%), DKA (95%) 18:36:42 i think this is subsumed by privacy actions 18:36:59 DKA: might be linked to action-509, so we should close 489 18:37:16 zakim, mute me 18:37:16 Ashok should now be muted 18:37:44 Larry: the problems that evercookie explore are not covered by web architecture 18:37:53 like cleaning local storage for cookies 18:39:00 Noah: how about client-side storage work from Ashok? 18:39:03 zakim, unmute me 18:39:03 Ashok should no longer be muted 18:39:43 NM: Evercookie is client-side storage 18:39:47 Larry: it's not explicit client-side storage, as it uses fingerprinting 18:40:34 Larry: we need to make sure that client-side storage work mention evercookie 18:40:47 ACTION-475? 18:40:47 ACTION-475 -- Ashok Malhotra to write finding on client-side storage, DanA to review -- due 2011-03-21 -- OPEN 18:40:47 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/475 18:41:23 Ashok's action amended to reflect that 18:41:35 close ACTION-489? 18:41:54 close ACTION-489 18:41:54 ACTION-489 Prepare early draft of TAG thoughts on implications of Evercookie. Due: 2010-12-08 closed 18:42:04 close ACTION-495 18:42:04 ACTION-495 Organize something with Geo for Friday morning. closed 18:42:16 ACTION-505? 18:42:16 ACTION-505 -- Daniel Appelquist to start a document wrt issue-25 -- due 2010-12-09 -- OPEN 18:42:16 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/505 18:42:30 ISSUE-25? 18:42:30 ISSUE-25 -- What to say in defense of principle that deep linking is not an illegal act? -- open 18:42:30 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/25 18:42:37 DKA: document started, quite empty for now 18:42:53 need to start an email discussion on what we should put there 18:43:01 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/rightToLink.html 18:43:22 Noah: how about bumping the due date and have an action to start discussion? 18:43:36 ACTION-505 Due 2011-01-25 18:43:36 ACTION-505 Start a document wrt issue-25 due date now 2011-01-25 18:43:55 ACTION-507? 18:43:55 ACTION-507 -- Daniel Appelquist to with Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on privacy -- due 2011-01-19 -- OPEN 18:43:55 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/507 18:44:03 -Masinter 18:44:35 Noah: should we discuss this at the f2f? 18:45:01 DKA: bump the due date after the f2f 18:45:12 ACTION-507 Due 2011-03-01 18:45:12 ACTION-507 With Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on privacy due date now 2011-03-01 18:45:38 Topic: Web Application State 18:46:12 everybody read this week or last week's version of the document 18:46:21 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/HashInURI-20110115 18:46:43 Ashok: I will work on Yves' comment on the next version of the document. 18:46:53 +Masinter 18:46:55 Ashok: We need to work on what we want to recommend 18:47:38 Ashok: actually paragraphs 4 and 5 18:47:52 s/paragraphs/sections/ 18:48:30 Noah: it would be great to discuss the pro and cons of the two main solutions 18:49:11 Ashok: when I asked why they were using one solution r the other, I got back "it's how they did it" as a reply 18:49:55 Noah: we might change the title of the document as mentionning the hash sigh seems like implementation detail 18:50:36 Larry: wondering if we are looking at this through the right side of the telescope. We need to say "how do you design an app that will use URIs in a meaningful way" 18:51:02 from the point of view, not of the user, but of the implementer. 18:51:14 johnk has joined #tagmem 18:51:19 Noah: in agreement 18:51:42 q+ to try to uplevel even further 18:52:29 Noah: things like being able to email an URI that will convey the right meaning in the context of email and not the JS program 18:53:13 The document should answer questions like when to use # sign or ? 18:53:41 Larry: as a user you don't have the choice, it's the app designer who make this decision 18:53:52 ack next 18:53:57 ack next 18:54:00 ht, you wanted to try to uplevel even further 18:55:43 q+ 18:55:56 ht: we might go even higher up. People are building application for web brwosers to have apps on the desktop. The crucial bit of advice is about choosing uri for wide use. But it's also possible to have names that are not used for wide distributon 18:55:58 HT: Not all of these names are meant for wide use 18:55:59 Google maps names >are< intended for wide use 18:56:14 q+ to say I want to emphasize names that are meant for wide use 18:56:21 ht: ex, in emacs, my message number are local only 18:56:52 q? 18:57:04 ht: the fact that web software make easy to create uris for that is generating the issue, like using numbering that is not meant for broadcast 18:57:05 ack next 18:57:39 q+ to wonder whether we should include the usage of # to hide metadata from the Referer usage in this document? 18:57:45 YL: Responding to Larry's point on talking to designers. My note talked in part about implementation details such as ability to push something into a CDN because you used #, has an impact. 18:58:06 YL: I agree we need high level views, but implementation details are important too 18:58:09 ack next 18:58:55 Ashok: I have a paragraph related to the CNN use case where they create private URIs 18:59:04 ack next 18:59:05 noah, you wanted to say I want to emphasize names that are meant for wide use 19:00:02 s/have/had/ 19:01:26 Noah: yes, some states/URIs are private but sometimes these are used in other contexts ... so be careful 19:01:29 Noah: while application can have pprivate state changes, it may be an issue that apps are choosing private URIs for things that needs a wider audience, like email identifier 19:01:38 ack next 19:01:40 johnk, you wanted to wonder whether we should include the usage of # to hide metadata from the Referer usage in this document? 19:02:24 http://waterken.sourceforge.net/web-key/#where 19:02:26 john: value before the # can be used for ACL and value after the # can be used locallly as not sent to the server 19:03:10 example URI: 19:04:24 Noah: Ashok, will you rearrange all the architectural questions? (general ones and ones under the CNN example) 19:04:52 Ashok: will work on that 19:05:02 I agree 19:05:11 Noah: between sections 3 and 4 would be ideal 19:06:31 Ashok: I will write (at worst possible changes, if not all changes) before the f2f 19:06:40 Yves, comments most welcome 19:07:19 ACTION-481 Due 2011-03-01 19:07:20 ACTION-481 Update client-side state document with help from Raman due date now 2011-03-01 19:07:30 ack next 19:08:35 q+ to disagree with Yves! 19:08:42 YL: If you're using # for video addressing, you're implying the secondary is part of the primary 19:09:02 Doesn't that actually depend on the media type registration for the video type? 19:09:16 http://www.example.org/tool?param=7 is _intimately_ related to http://www.exmaple.org/tool ! 19:09:41 ack next 19:09:42 ht, you wanted to disagree with Yves! 19:09:53 Ashok: I mentionned issues with relations to byte ranges as well 19:10:23 YL: In the case of ?, the with-parameter version has nothing to do with the w/o the parameter version 19:10:29 HT: Did you mean that in the ? mark case the resources have nothing to do with each other? 19:10:32 YL: Yes 19:12:09 ht: there is a difference between being 'by the book' not related and the reality, like http://www.example.com/USA/ma/bos/xxx and http://www.example.com/USA/ma/bos 19:12:24 Larry: what would be the relation there? 19:12:39 ht: it identify a parameter fonction 19:13:14 Larry: which things are generic to URIs and which things are http-related? 19:13:27 So http://example.org/stuffcontainer?thingid={GUID} is bad practice? I don't believe that. 19:13:52 The point of this example is that GUID1 and GUID2 might denote quite unrelated resources. 19:14:05 johnk has joined #tagmem 19:14:23 does this apply only to "http:" or to all URIs? 19:15:03 there is a relationship between scheme://host/path and scheme://host/path?query in that the query can be created by a form with scheme://host/path as the target 19:15:04 As far as I am concerned, I thought the http spec. _did_ enforce that foo.html?a=b and foo.html?c=d and foo.html all are handled by the same 'resource'. . . 19:15:16 noah: my concern is that using '#' sign is not a indication that it's a part of the resource without the '#' sign 19:15:37 -ht 19:15:53 ack next 19:16:34 note that mime-web-info talks about defining fragment identifiers.... 19:16:34 YL: My comment was on the media fragments, and in that specific case there are some loose ends on media type registration 19:16:44 q? 19:17:09 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue 19:17:18 Topic: overdue action 19:17:23 ACTION-381? 19:17:23 ACTION-381 -- Jonathan Rees to spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ -- due 2011-01-17 -- OPEN 19:17:23 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381 19:18:46 ACTION-381 Due 2011-02-11 19:18:46 ACTION-381 Spend 2 hours helping Ian with http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ due date now 2011-02-11 19:19:08 Noah: let's put that on the best-effort list 19:19:09 ACTION-390? 19:19:09 ACTION-390 -- Daniel Appelquist to review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps -- due 2010-10-18 -- OPEN 19:19:09 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/390 19:20:19 Yves will contribute on ACTION-390 19:20:33 ACTION-390 Due 2011-03-01 19:20:33 ACTION-390 Review ISSUE-58 and suggest next steps due date now 2011-03-01 19:20:58 Topic: AOB? 19:20:59 none 19:21:01 ADJOURNED 19:21:11 -Ashok 19:21:34 -Masinter 19:21:38 -Jonathan_Rees 19:21:40 -John_Kemp 19:21:41 -Noah_Mendelsohn 19:21:44 -Yves 19:21:46 -DKA 19:21:47 rrsagent, make logs public 19:21:47 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 19:21:49 Attendees were Jonathan_Rees, Masinter, +1.845.270.aaaa, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok, DKA, Yves, ht, John_Kemp 19:21:59 rrsagent, pointer? 19:21:59 See http://www.w3.org/2011/01/20-tagmem-irc#T19-21-59 21:30:39 Zakim has left #tagmem 21:48:49 timbl_ has joined #tagmem 23:12:59 Norm has joined #tagmem