See also: IRC log
<scribe> scribenick: Ashok
<scribe> scribe: Ashok_Malhotra
<DanC> RESOLVED: to cancel TAG weekly telcon 8 Apr
<DanC> (resolved last week, I gather; just a reminder)
Minutes of March 4 have been checked in by DanA
<DKA> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/04-minutes.html
Minutes of March 11
<noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/11-minutes.html
<DanC> PROPOSED: to approve 11 March, noting DKA's regrets
DanA: I was not on the call on 3/11 but gave regrets
RESOLUTION: Minutes of March 11 are approved. URL is above
<DKA> Minutes of March 25 are posted.
<DKA> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/25-minutes.html
Noah: We need to tell TPAC folks about TAG meeting
... suggest we say "TAG members will be on a best effort basis... we will meet Mon and Fri"
<scribe> ACTION: Noah to verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to W3C teem due April 13 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-423 - Verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to W3C teem due April 13 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-04-08].
<DanC> action-423 due 13 Apr
<trackbot> ACTION-423 Verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to W3C teem due April 13 due date now 13 Apr
<DanC> action-415: see http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/24-tagmem-minutes.html
<trackbot> ACTION-415 Edit ftf minutes day 1 (Wednesday 24 March) notes added
<DanC> close action-415
<trackbot> ACTION-415 Edit ftf minutes day 1 (Wednesday 24 March) closed
Noah: We don't have a shared tracking system with HTML folks
We opened ACTION 407. Need to respond
<masinter> action-407?
<trackbot> ACTION-407 -- Henry S. Thompson to propose an update to DanC's prose from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly to the way 2854 does -- due 2010-04-13 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/407
<DanC> looking at http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html ...
Noah: Maybe nothing to do here since Henry is not here
<DanC> text/html registration is http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html#item07
<masinter> i think there's a bigger architectural issue about MIME types, what they're for, how they're used on the Web
LMM: I'm concerned that there is not a good understanding about MIME types
... there is a lot of confusion. This relates to a lot of open issues.
<jar_> http://www.w3.org/1999/09/specification.html
<DanC> issue-1?
<trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types? -- RAISED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1
LMM: I think we should write a finding about MIME types
Noah: I'm happy to entertain the proposal
<jar_> masinter: A mime type doesn't license anyone to do anything
Noah: but Paul wants feedback soon
... I suggest we tell Paul we are working on it but it will be a bit late
<masinter> I think we should take up the bigger issue
<DKA> +1 to your suggested approach, Noah.
<masinter> I'd rather have correct feedback than bad feedback sooner
<masinter> issue-1?
<trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types? -- RAISED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1
<DanC> (on that page, it says "State: PENDING REVIEW")
<DKA> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime
DanC: We have a finding on MIME types from April 2004
<DanC> "Internet Media Type registration, consistency of use"
DanC: It says you should have a MIME type ... not let spec and type get out of sync
<masinter> It doesn't say what MIME types mean, whether they should be sniffed, whether it's reasonable to write recommendation "The document FOOBAR-XML can be served as A or B"
DanA: This finding reads to me like RTFM
<masinter> it doesn't give guidelines on redefinition of MIME types, about change controllers
DanA: I think Larry was suggesting something in the Web Arch
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime
DanC: It will be yet more stuff to read ... It's all documented ...
Noah: I'm sympathetic to writing findings
<masinter> I'm proposing updating http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime, not writing a new finding.
<DanC> (I'd be happy to see masinter pull a rabbit out of a hat, so to speak.)
<masinter> the RFCs on MIME types don't talk about MIME types in the web, for example, they focus on email
Noah: there is a lot we have been discussing that existing findings don't address
<masinter> don't mention use of MIME types in content-negotiation
Noah: who can put some effort into it?
<masinter> could address the text/html application/xhtml+xml issue
<DanC> ("content negotiation" doesn't occur in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime . interesting.)
Noah: When you start a finding there is a chance the group will not approve it
... we need someone to step up
LMM: I'm willing to work on it
<DKA> I will be willing to help.
<DanC> . ACTION Masinter: draft update to TAG mime type finding (with DanA) to address [KEYWORDS, please?]
Noah: Due date f2f?
LMM: I will start some discussions on www-tag
<masinter> i will have an action to propose changes on www-tag in the next 3 days
<masinter> and another action to prepare a proposed update to finding based on that discussion by F2F
<noah> Larry, Dan wants keywords
DanC: Need keyword to say what's wrong with the finding
Noah: Need guidance on how to respond to PaulC
<jar_> . ACTION Masinter: propose some changes/additions to 0430-mime, due in 3 days
Noah: we have ACTION-407, dates have slipped a bit
<masinter> ACTION: Masinter to propose some changes/additions to 0430-mime, due in 3 days [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-424 - Propose some changes/additions to 0430-mime, due in 3 days [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-04-08].
<masinter> ACTION: Masinter to draft updated 0430-mine, with help from DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-425 - Draft updated 0430-mine, with help from DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-04-08].
Noah: PaulC sent mail saying they had a concern with our planning esp. Issue 81
... I said it was closed
DanC: It was pending review ... I thought it would be on f2f agenda
Noah: Oops missed that
<noah> action-389?
<trackbot> ACTION-389 -- Larry Masinter to take Dan's proposal on resource/representation and turn it into a change proposal -- due 2010-02-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/389
<Zakim> jar, you wanted to say "document"
<masinter> (can't hear over noise here, will respond to IRC but not phone)
JAR: I remember I exchanged mail w/DanC
... seems straightforward ... suggest HTML5 revert to language used by HTML4 --- replace "resource" with "document"
Noah: What about representation?
JAR: Not used in HTML4
Noah: Someone should step up and say "here is a story we can tell HTML" otherwise we can say we have changed our mind and will not provide input
DanC: It's editorial, I don't want to work on editorial stuff
... We are discussing resource and representation but no one seem inclined to work on it
JAR: There are many occurrences of "resource" in the document
<timbl> RT @aetxebeste: RT @openstreetmap: Announcing closedstreetmap.org http://post.ly/X2pg
TimBL: How many of those cannot be turned into "document"
<timbl> sorry clipboard fail
<timbl> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html
JAR: How strongly does Tim feel about this ... inconsistent use of resource
... inconsistent with other usage
<timbl> curl http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html | grep -i resource | wc => 659 7123 65235
Others feel "resource" means a sequence of bytes with a media type
<jar_> danc: Ian gives evidence that 'resource' is already used in w3c documents to mean bytes (+ media type etc)
<DanC> [[
<DanC> Ian points out usage that suggests "a resource is a bag of bits"
<DanC> in HTML 4, CSS, SVG etc.
<DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.html
<DanC> ]]
<DanC> -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0070.html
<timbl> "This specification defines an abstract language for describing documents and applications, and some APIs for interacting with in-memory representations of resources that use this language."
<timbl> 1.6
<timbl> "There are various concrete syntaxes that can be used to transmit resources that use this abstract language, two of which are defined in this specification."
<noah> Ian's mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.html
Noah: I don't find his examples compelling
JAR: Agrees
<DanC> (rfc2616 is what? )
<masinter> the term "resource" is ambiguous
<masinter> so you can easily find documents that use it in lots of ways
<DanC> (I think rfc2616 is replaced by http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt )
JAR: If Tim is happy, I'm happy
<masinter> can we really address editorial issues one-by-one
<masinter> http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/03/resources-are-angels-urls-are-pins.html
<jar_> apparently.
Noah: I find this as reasoning from the converse
<masinter> the MIME type finding update could also talk about resources & representations?
<masinter> or maybe it should be an update to webarch?
Noah: argues from XML Schema where the wording is not great!
DanC: It's an editorial matter
<timbl> "Indeed. Nor do resources. The URL "http://twitter.com/hixie" has as its
<timbl> significance "use the HTTP protocol on the server with host name
<timbl> 'twitter.com' on port 80 with path '/hixie'"; it doesn't have any more
Noah: I think it's more than editorial because usage may be confusingly different
<timbl> actual significance than that."
<timbl> T
<timbl> his is nt what web arch says, it is a diff philosophy
<masinter> as chair of HTTP WG at the time, I can say authoritatively that 2616 was the result of a battle over functional behavior, and editorial issues were definitely second priority
<jar_> Ian's significance claim not a falsifiable claim; irrelevant.
LMM: I wonder about the value of taking it one word at a time editorially
Noah: Dicussion of URI and URL discussion was fruitful
... What would TAG like to tell the HTML WG?
Tim: Represenation is a messy word
JAR: I suggest "document" as alternative to html5:resource
<timbl> Trouble is, I like "document" as an alterntive for "resource" - not "representation".
<timbl> How about "file"?
<timbl> That is a set of bits
<jar_> HTML4 uses "document"... that seems good... it reads well
<timbl> "A URL is a string used to identify a resource".
<timbl> " 2.5.1 is fine
<DanC> I hear TimBL saying he likes "document" as a synonym for webarch:resource
<timbl> No, I like "document" as a synonym for webarch:resource
<timbl> webarch:InformationResource
<timbl> for webarch:InformationResource
<timbl> I like "document" as a synonym for webarch:InformationResource
<timbl> Phew
<noah> So, that's what Tim meant...
<timbl> How about "file" as a set of bits
<timbl> and representation as the combination of returned metadata and the file
DKA: Asks about the state of play on the issue
DanC: I sent comments to TAG not the editors
DKA: Why not ask editors to put in explanotory note at the start of the document
<timbl> I note http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html has scripts which prevent it from being used easily
<timbl> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
<timbl> "A script on this page is busy"
Noah: Do we really need to edit the source?
<timbl> Currently, "resource" is used inconsisently within the spec. Therefore, it would have to be edited by a person,
<DanC> the status section of the editor's draft notes http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/ and svn checkout http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/
<DanC> (inconsistently? I haven't seen that. could you point out 2 inconsistent uses, tim? that could)
Tim: Yes
... sometimes it says a URI identifies a resource
<DanC> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/
Noah: They think we offered to do some drafting but we have not
<timbl> ) --><tr><td> <code title="">abreve;</code> </td> <td> U+00103 </td> <td> <span>ă</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">ac;</code> </td> <td> U+0223E </td> <td> <span>∾</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">acd;</code> </td> <td> U+0223F </td> <td> <span>∿</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">acirc;</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td> <span>â</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">acirc</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td> <span
<timbl> title="">â</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">acirc</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td> <span>â</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code title="">acute;</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td> <span>´</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">acute</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td> <
<timbl> title="">´</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">acute</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td> <span>´</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code title="">acy;</code> </td> <td> U+00430 </td> <td> <span>а</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">aelig;</code> </td> <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span>æ</
<timbl> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">aelig</code> </td> <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span title="">æ</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">aelig</code> </td> <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span>æ</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code title="">af;</code> </td> <td> U+02061 </td> <td> <span>⁡</span
<timbl> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">afr;</code> </td> <td> U+1D51E </td> <td> <span>  </span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">agrave;</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </td> <td> <span>à</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">agrave</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </td> <td> <span title="">à</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">agrave</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </t
<timbl> <td> <span>à</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code title="">alefsym;</code> </td> <td> U+02135 </td> <td> <span>ℵ</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">aleph;</code> </td> <td> U+02135 </td> <td> <span>ℵ</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">alpha;</code> </td> <td> U+003B1 </td> <td> <span>α</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">amacr;</code> </td> <td> U+00101 </td> <td
<timbl> <span>ā</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">amalg;</code> </td> <td> U+02A3F </td> <td> <span>⨿</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">amp;</code> </td> <td> U+00026 </td> <td> <span>&</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">amp</code> </td> <td> U+00026 </td> <td> <span title="">&</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">amp</code> </td> <td> U+0002
<timbl> </td> <td> <span>&</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code title="">and;</code> </td> <td> U+02227 </td> <td> <span>∧</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andand;</code> </td> <td> U+02A55 </td> <td> <span>⩕</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andd;</code> </td> <td> U+02A5C </td> <td> <span>⩜</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andslope;</code> </td> <td> U+02A58 </td> <td>
<timbl> <span>⩘</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andv;</code> </td> <td> U+02A5A </td> <td> <span>⩚</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">ang;</code> </td> <td> U+02220 </td> <td> <span>∠</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">ange;</code> </td> <td> U+029A4 </td> <td> <span>⦤</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angle;</code> </td> <td> U+02220 </td> <td> <span>∠</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsd;</code> </td> <td> U+02221 </td> <
<timbl> <span>∡</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdaa;</code> </td> <td> U+029A8 </td> <td> <span>⦨</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdab;</code> </td> <td> U+029A9 </td> <td> <span>⦩</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdac;</code> </td> <td> U+029AA </td> <td> <span>⦪</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdad;</code> </td> <td> U+029AB </td> <td> <span>⦫</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdae;</code> </t
<timbl> <td> U+029AC </td>
<timbl> this is not an editable editor's draft.
<timbl> Things like that do not made a draft editable.
Noah: I'm happy to delegate the response to Paul to someone else
<timbl> I would like the TAG to ask the HTML WG to change the document so that the same word "resource" is not used for different concepts.
<DanC> I understand the position of the editor so that it's already not used for different concepts.
Noah: We can make correction without having access to the source
... we can copy/paste from a browse window
... I will communicate with Paul informally
ADJOURNED