View source for Socialwg/2017-06-06-minutes

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= Social Web Working Group Teleconference =

== 06 Jun 2017 ==

See also: [http://www.w3.org/2017/06/06-social-irc IRC log]

== Attendees ==

; Present
: ajordan, sandro, ben_thatmustbeme, tantek, rhiaro
; Regrets
: cwebber, evanpro, aaronpk
; Chair
: tantek
; Scribe
: Ben Roberts, AJ Jordan

== Contents ==

* [[#agenda|Topics]]
*# [[#item01|review of minutes of last week]]
*# [[#item02|update for extension]]
*# [[#item03|specs]]
*# [[#item04|JF2]]
*# [[#item05|interop]]
* [[#ActionSummary|Summary of Action Items]]
* [[#ResolutionSummary|Summary of Resolutions]]


-----

&lt;ajordan&gt; see ya next week cwebber2!

&lt;ajordan&gt; ben_thatmustbeme: no problem :)

&lt;ajordan&gt; I just skimmed the new section

&lt;tantek&gt; be right there :)

&lt;Loqi&gt; tantek: saranix left you a message 4 days, 14 hours ago: I was wondering what were the reasons that W3 started switching to github 'issues' and what are they 'switching' from?

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; i can scribe

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme

&lt;scribe&gt; scribe: Ben Roberts

&lt;tantek&gt; [https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-30-minutes https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-30-minutes]

&lt;ajordan&gt; ben_thatmustbeme: I can scribe while we talk about JF2 if you want

=== review of minutes of last week ===

&lt;sandro&gt; +1

&lt;tantek&gt; +1

+1

&lt;ajordan&gt; +1

'''<span id="resolution01">RESOLUTION: accept [https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-30-minutes https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-30-minutes] of minutes from last week</span>'''

=== update for extension ===

sandro: no update yet, i created a new w3c.social mastodon instance to hopefully show some support<br /> ... not sure how to show off that link

tantek: well at least on the WG website

sandro: i don't think that would be noticablel enough

ajordan: twitter?

sandro: oh yeah

(laughs all around)

=== specs ===

tantek: with cwebber2 not here i don't know we can do much on activitypub<br /> ... anyone have any hot topics to raise on it

ajordan: nothing has been raised recently in the issues

tantek: we don't have aaronpk or julien here, so i don't know we can do much with websub

&lt;aaronpk&gt; not on the call, but my only update is that pfefferle submitted an implementationreport for wordpress [https://github.com/w3c/websub/blob/master/implementation-reports/PUBLISHER-wordpress-pubsubhubbub.md https://github.com/w3c/websub/blob/master/implementation-reports/PUBLISHER-wordpress-pubsubhubbub.md]

tantek: aaronpk did get some websub implementation report for wordpress<br /> ... its a plugin for worpress

&lt;aaronpk&gt; also julien seems to have just gone through a bunch of websub issues

&lt;aaronpk&gt; so there is more to discuss on github

&lt;Zakim&gt; ajordan, you wanted to mention the direct-message issue resolution

&lt;ajordan&gt; [https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196 https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196]

&lt;Loqi&gt; [annando] #196 How to differentiate between posts and private (direct) messages?

ajordan: i happen to have last weeks minutes open, and we were going to discuss the direct message issue

&lt;ajordan&gt; [https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196#issuecomment-304958984 https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/196#issuecomment-304958984]

&lt;Loqi&gt; [cwebber] Note that Pump.io already does this, and I think this may be the answer: inbox is still used for federation, but multiple streams can be presented to the user in terms of inbox / the &quot;major&quot; feed (which is all the main posts and comments and etc) / t...

ajordan: i just wanted to mention it because it seems like its been resolved<br /> ... it seems like everyone is on the same page

tantek: sounds good, i leave it cwebber2 to prompt the original opener to ask if they are satisfied<br /> ... but good to see the updates there<br /> ... the only thing i have to report on post type discovery is in a little bit of messaging with sandro, i have had some ...<br /> ... mastodon works well with other mastodon instances, but not much with others outside of mastodon

sandro: some others have written plugins to make it work here and there

&lt;rhiaro&gt; PostActiv is not GNU Social but is OStatus, also works, I think that counts

tantek: does mastodon have a character limit?

sandro: yes, but only on the input

&lt;sandro&gt; (I think)

tantek: if we were to hlep make mastodon accept webmention, it would need to figure those out by post type discovery or a subset of the PTD algorithm<br /> ... i think i will look in to doing that subset, and it should be even easier to get more interop on it

sandro: since we have such an open agenda, i wonder if we could talk more on that

=== JF2 ===

&lt;tantek&gt; scribenick: ajordan

&lt;scribe&gt; scribe: AJ Jordan

ben_thatmustbeme: two of the guys behind micro.blog Manton Reece &amp; Brent Simmons, who have implemented RSS and Atom released(?) JSON Feed<br /> ... looking at it there was very little difference, but there are some values differently. most of it is a change in vocabulary

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; [https://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social https://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social]

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; oops

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; [http://dissolve.github.io/jf2/#jsonfeed_to_jf2feed http://dissolve.github.io/jf2/#jsonfeed_to_jf2feed]

bn_thatmustbeme: I added a section that defines a profile that pretty much matches JSON Feed<br /> ... people can turn microformats into JF2 that way, and can use things like JSON Feed<br /> ... I'd like to publish a new WD of it for that reason<br /> ... let's see if we can unify JSON Feed and JF2 a little more

sandro: great thing to work on ben_thatmustbeme, I'm curious what you mean when you say &quot;pretty much&quot;<br /> ... why can't it be the same?

ben_thatmustbeme: for anyone using JSON Feed you have to break on anything you don't recognize<br /> ... in JSON Feed any extensions have to be prefixed with an _<br />... the other is mainly vocabulary. either you have to start adding JF2 vocab that isn't referenced anywhere out of JSON Feed, or you convert it over<br />... there's a section on how to convert it

&lt;sandro&gt; sandro: the _prefix this is an anti-pattern, like x-foo headers

&lt;sandro&gt; sandro: also, version numbers? no thanks!

tantek: great work ben_thatmustbeme on JF2, in particular in finding a profile for JF2 that gets it very close to JSON Feed while keeping it generic AFAICT<br /> ... to the point where essentially it's mostly a property renaming conversion<br /> ... as sandro pointed out this is mostly just a few lines of code<br /> ... generally I think this is an excellent approach to take to kinda bring add'l efforts into interop with our specs<br /> ... we see where you are, we specify things in the direction you're talking about, and we specify how to interop.<br /> ... I really like us saying this publicly<br /> ... don't read issue 49 on JSON Feed right now, but basically it's a massive flamewar<br /> ... where someone said &quot;here's how to fix your spec&quot; instead of trying to work with them<br /> ... I think ben_thatmustbeme's approach is better in the long term and builds community better

&lt;Zakim&gt; sandro, you wanted to ask about jf2-&gt;html &amp; media type

sandro: I haven't really been paying attention to JF2 since it didn't seem to matter in the way I saw the universe until recently<br /> ... is there code that converts JF2 to HTML?

ben_thatmustbeme: there certainly can be? I've written some<br /> ... it basically takes HTML microformats and puts it into JSON<br /> ... you could go back to HTML<br /> ... it's completely vocabulary-independent<br /> ... the idea of doing the profile is now you have things because you say &quot;this field's `url` has to be a URL<br /> ... now it becomes much more useful<br /> ... a lot of what aaronpk and ??? have been doing is using additional requirements that haven't been codified everywhere<br /> ... perhaps another profile that says &quot;this is how you represent an object&quot;

&lt;sandro&gt; application/json+jf2feed

sandro: so something could have a media type something like that? if you were passing around?

ben_thatmustbeme: yeah and I actually define that as the media type

sandro: IndieWeb community is fine with microformats but there are lots of people who'd rather pass around JSON<br /> ... this seems like a good bridge between worlds<br /> ... if someone was gonna modify Mastodon to export something that interop'd with IWC stuff<br /> ... the proper way would be to change the HTML

ben_thatmustbeme: Mastodon already has all the markup<br /> ... I can see someone using a separate service that did all that conversion for me<br /> ... just make rel=alternate for this page &lt;some-url&gt;?convert=&lt;this page&gt;<br /> ... then you only have to maintain one codebase cause all it does is run through the standard parsing and convert

&lt;tantek&gt; [http://dissolve.github.io/jf2/#changes-from-28-july-2016-fpwd-to-this-version http://dissolve.github.io/jf2/#changes-from-28-july-2016-fpwd-to-this-version]

tantek: ben_thatmustbeme you put in a request to publish a new JF2 WD?<br /> ... my next question is the change log

&lt;Zakim&gt; sandro, you wanted to suggest adding media type registration appendix

tantek: Security Considerations is good

sandro: do you want to go ahead and add the media type registration information into this section? that seems reasonable<br /> ... application/json+jf2feed<br /> ... there's an example of how to use it, but there isn't the thing to register it with IANA

tantek: if you look at ActivityStreams I believe that has a registration for a similar media type

&lt;sandro&gt; [https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#media-type https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#media-type]

tantek: application/json+as2?<br /> ... probably a good place to copy stuff from

sandro: actually +json goes on the end<br /> ... activity+json

ben_thatmustbeme: I thought the order didn't matter?

sandro: I think the order matters very much

tantek: I think it's just an opaque string and any introspection of that string is just convention?<br /> ... probably an RFC about it

sandro: I think there's an RFC about +xml

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; sandro++

&lt;Loqi&gt; sandro has 43 karma in this channel (50 overall)

sandro: if it ends in +xml you can parse it as XML<br /> ... probably one for JSON too

tantek: good catch, don't want multiple, possibly malformed MIME types<br /> ... would you be okay publishing that working draft? with an Appendix and such?<br /> ... sandro does this sound good to you to publish a new WD with the changes you requested?

&lt;tantek&gt; PROPOSED: Publish new jf2 WD including changes requested to fix content-type and add an appendix for the IANA registration of the application/jf2+json content-type

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; +1

+1

&lt;sandro&gt; +1

'''<span id="resolution02">RESOLUTION: Publish new jf2 WD including changes requested to fix content-type and add an appendix for the IANA registration of the application/jf2+json content-type</span>'''

&lt;wilkie&gt; +1

tantek: CG chairs aren't here so let's go to interop

=== interop ===

sandro: today I was thinking interop between Mastodon and IWC sites<br /> ... what needs to happen to make that work?<br /> ... obviously there's a bunch of stuff around Webfinger that ben_thatmustbeme and I have been talking about

&lt;sandro&gt; - webfinger

sandro: without necessarily going into that what are the major ones

&lt;Zakim&gt; ben_thatmustbeme, you wanted to talk about various parts

sandro: salmentions, I get lost as to what they're used for

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; not sure why my mic isn't working

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; brb

sandro: because someone asked you a question, that's why your mic isn't working?

&lt;tantek&gt; aside: PTD issue filed for RTD [https://github.com/tantek/post-type-discovery/issues/24 https://github.com/tantek/post-type-discovery/issues/24]

&lt;Loqi&gt; [tantek] #24 add a subset algorithm for Response Type Discovery

ben_thatmustbeme: starting with IndieWeb being able to read from Mastodon<br /> ... for context<br /> ... if an IndieWeb site replies to someone on Mastodon they can read any post for the context of where they were<br /> ... the piece that's missing there is if an IndieWeb site replies to Mastodon, they're gonna send a Webmention to Mastodon and not find an endpoint<br /> ... Mastodon just needs a working Webmention endpoint that would take in comments on their posts from outside

&lt;tantek&gt; and that's where Mastodon will need Response Type Discovery to turn the Webmention into a reply, like, repost

ben_thatmustbeme: the other biggest limitation is being able to reply to something that's not on Mastodon<br /> ... you have no way to reply to &quot;a URL&quot;

sandro: can a Mastodon user even see anything outside?

ben_thatmustbeme: it seems they can if you add certain bits to your website?<br /> ... seems that Mastodon only gets posts via WebSub and ???<br /> ... I haven't tried subscribing to a non-Mastodon instance and then replying to it to see if you even can reply<br /> ... the GitHub issues seemed to indicate you _could_ if it had a Salmon endpoint? and if that's there it should show up as they're able to reply to it?<br /> ... right now you can just &quot;mention&quot; someone which is obviously missing<br /> ... and sending Webmentions when they do that I guess would instead be over Salmon

sandro: it sounds like if we're gonna change this on the Mastodon side one would have to add basically h-feed parsing<br /> ... and Webmention<br /> ... into Mastodon

ben_thatmustbeme: I think Mastodon is Ruby right?<br /> ... so I did rewrite the entire Ruby mf2 parser<br /> ... it's much more stable, should do everything they need<br /> ... it's even already included as a dev dep, because it's used for the testing

&lt;tantek&gt; Mastodon already has the mf2 parser in core for testing?

sandro: so we have no idea at this point whether they're amenable to adding these things<br /> ... we could add them to an instance<br /> ... upgrading decentralized systems is so hard... you gotta get everyone on board

ben_thatmustbeme: getting everyone in the same room is tricky too

tantek: seems like a proof of concept would be nice to show usefulness

sandro: yeah having it on some instances and then sending patches seems useful<br /> ... sometimes devs want to be involved early on and sometimes they want to wait

tantek: ben_thatmustbeme have you filed issues on Mastodon based on this analysis?<br /> ... since you've already done a bunch of work getting the mf2 there

ben_thatmustbeme: I started on Micropub support<br /> ... seems like it's an easier piece to tackle and avoids a lot of this stuff since it's just client to server<br /> ... other than that no

&lt;Zakim&gt; tantek, you wanted to note or adding Webmention discovery as an option / fall back if Salmon is missing

sandro: it'll only participate in sites that offer Salmon, but one would argue there's a case for Salmon and Webmention

&lt;tantek&gt; because Sandro already said it

sandro: they don't want people to comment on dead sites<br /> ... this brings me back to &quot;what is Salmention for&quot;?

ben_thatmustbeme: Webmention simply says when you create a post you gotta notify who you reference<br /> ... if I reply to you my code notifies your endpoint<br /> ... if someone responds to me they're gonna notify me but it never gets back to you<br /> ... if you want to know the full thread you don't have that info

sandro: it would if A is the first post, B is a reply to that, and C is a reply to that<br /> ... C doesn't get back to A<br /> ... C notifies B via Webmention

&lt;tantek&gt; [https://indieweb.org/salmention https://indieweb.org/salmention]

ben_thatmustbeme: you've just defined salmention<br /> ... when you get an update, send a Webmention again

sandro: ???

tantek: I think that's the part that's different

&lt;sandro&gt; [https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sending-webmentions-for-updated-posts https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sending-webmentions-for-updated-posts]

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; [https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#updating-existing-webmentions https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#updating-existing-webmentions]

tantek: there's a Webmention CRUD protocol which is for updates to your post (stuff that you wrote)<br /> ... salmention expands that and specifies how and when to send mentions for stuff you receive to your post

sandro: through a strange lens<br /> ... when you update a page, you send all the mentions on the page<br /> ... I would say salmention is &quot;when there is a reply, you should link to it from your page too, everything else follows&quot;

tantek: when the post initially sends out Webmentions, it has no responses yet<br /> ... it's a noop

sandro: when B is created, it sends a reply to A<br /> ... when C is created, it's gonna send a mention to B<br /> ... when B gets that Webmention from C it's gonna update the page to include &quot;C is a reply to me&quot;<br /> ... because it's changed its content it's going to send a mention to A (and C)<br /> ... because it's been modified

ben_thatmustbeme: I always interpreted it as &quot;webmention says you _may_ send a webmention again if you send updates&quot;<br /> ... you should if you update your own content<br /> ... you may if you receive from others<br /> ... salmention basically says &quot;you must if you receive from others&quot;

&lt;tantek&gt; [https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sending-webmentions-for-updated-posts https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sending-webmentions-for-updated-posts]

sandro: how do you detect that salmentions are being implmented by peers?

ben_thatmustbeme: you'll be receiving webmentions for post updates

sandro: which as I read the webmention spec you already should do<br /> ... if you're changing a SHOULD to a MUST that's undetectable

&lt;tantek&gt; [https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#updating-existing-webmentions https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#updating-existing-webmentions]

tantek: so here's the link in webmention where it mentions salmentions(?)<br /> ... I think the difference here sandro is, is a webmention sent in response to receiving a webmention<br /> ... which is why it's different for implementations<br /> ... specifically that knowledge of &quot;oh I've got other stuff that's depending on me&quot;

sandro: I don't get it, it seems like you'd have to do that anyway if you're being a good webmention citizen<br /> ... maybe I understand webmention differently somehow

tantek: reading webmention it does allow impl's to send update only when the content changes<br /> ... that's intentional<br /> ... you're expanding requirements<br /> ... sending webmentions at all is something implementations aren't required to do<br /> ... they could send mentions for some links but not all and still be conformant<br /> ... sending mentions for stuff you link to but not stuff in comments seems okay<br /> ... e.g. &quot;I don't want to send random links people put in my comments&quot;<br /> ... salmention _does_ require that

ben_thatmustbeme: it does seem that a lot of that stuff made it in the webmention spec

tantek: there's sending a salmention, which is sending a webmention in response to sending a webmention<br /> ... then there's receiving a webmention for something you yourself sent a webmention too

ben_thatmustbeme: there's the additional piece where receiving a webmention might not just be an update to the content<br /> ... if you have links in a comment thread, you may not send webmentions

sandro: so this only comes up in a situation where there's A B C and D?

tantek: no it comes up in A B and C<br /> ... salmentions solve the SWAT0 problem<br /> ... A posts a photo of B<br /> ... tags B in the photo<br /> ... C comments on the photo<br /> ... as a result B gets a salmention that there's a comment on the photo<br /> ... that's the usecase that inspired the protocol

sandro: so A would get notified that B had changed<br /> ... if B included that content from C

tantek: B doesn't have any content<br /> ... just happens to be in A's post

sandro: B is a user who's in A's post?

tantek: correct<br /> ... C comments on A's post<br /> ... /replied to

sandro: in response to that A changed their content to show a link to that comment?<br /> ... the webmention requirement at that point is that A send a webmention again and that includes B

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; ajordan++ for taking a hard day of scribing

&lt;Loqi&gt; ajordan has 4 karma

tantek: if B comments on A, B sends a webmention to A

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; If a response to the source URL is shown on the source URL page (e.g. as a comment), then sender should treat that as an update of the source URL and re-send any previously sent Webmentions.

tantek: assumption is impl's will do the minimum to get it to work. salmention expands requirements

&lt;tantek&gt; [https://indieweb.org/Salmentions https://indieweb.org/Salmentions]

tantek: sandro from your description/reading of webmention and trying to see things from your perspective<br /> ... I see how a lot of what salmention is trying to solve is at least present in the spec<br /> ... if not completely explicit<br /> ... webmention is already a REC<br /> ... one q I'd like to ask is: would adding more details to the sections you've cited just to make it clear that that's the expectation<br /> ... is that the kind of thing we could do an errata for? would we need webmention 1.1?<br /> ... I'm asking you sandro since you're the one that pointed out you see this in the existing spec

sandro: whether there's an eratta or 1.1 has to do with how other people see it<br /> ... if other people see it as being there we could do eratta

tantek: I vaguely recollect there being something in the test suite about this?

&lt;tantek&gt; [https://webmention.net/implementation-reports/summary/ https://webmention.net/implementation-reports/summary/]

tantek: so if you scroll down to receiver tests<br /> ... and sender tests<br /> ... there are tests for salmention extensions

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; that was just a check box as i remember

tantek: so it'll test salmention stuff though as sandro pointed out there seems to be overlap<br /> ... there are a couple impl's from outside the WG

sandro: maybe people implemented it and didn't even know they were implementing it then

tantek: we definitely don't have time to revise the spec by the end of this month<br /> ... but we'll find out in 1-2 weeks if we get the charter extension<br /> ... one thing I've been advocating for is that any WG that gets extended do maintenance on their specs<br /> ... if there are missing pieces we can cross that bridge when we get there<br /> ... file issues accordingly against webmention<br /> ... if we do need to add a few words here or there to clarify terminology we can make a judgement call as to whether it's errata or 1.0.1 or 1.1<br /> ... sandro can double-check this but I believe that would be within the charter's scope?<br /> ... so if we got extended we'd be allowed to do that. though if we did 1.1 we'd be required to go through the full WD-&gt;CR cycle

sandro: I believe that'd be within scope but let's deal with that later

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; sandro++ good discussion

&lt;tantek&gt; sandro++

&lt;Loqi&gt; sandro has 44 karma in this channel (51 overall)

&lt;scibe&gt; sandro++

&lt;Loqi&gt; sandro has 45 karma in this channel (52 overall)

&lt;tantek&gt; ajordan++ for scribing an extra long telcon!

&lt;Loqi&gt; ajordan has 5 karma

&lt;ben_thatmustbeme&gt; ajordan++

&lt;sandro&gt; [https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-06-07 https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG/2017-06-07]

&lt;tantek&gt; trackbot, end meeting

== Summary of Action Items ==

== Summary of Resolutions ==

# [[#resolution01|accept https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-05-30-minutes of minutes from last week]]
# [[#resolution02|Publish new jf2 WD including changes requested to fix content-type and add an appendix for the IANA registration of the application/jf2+json content-type]]

[End of minutes]<br />