RdfRDB/2007-10-25

From W3C Wiki


--- Log opened 2007-10-25T13:32:28Z Thu Oct 25
2007-10-25T13:32:28Z -!- ericP [ericP@128.30.52.30] has joined #RdfRDB
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2007-10-25T13:32:44Z <ericP> oh yeah, who's the op
2007-10-25T13:32:53Z <LeeF> i've been here for like HOURS
2007-10-25T13:32:58Z <ericP> i bet
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2007-10-25T13:36:24Z <shellac> hey, an interloper
2007-10-25T13:40:13Z <ericP> oi
2007-10-25T13:40:42Z <ericP> LeeF, shellac, i need to put some slides together for a recently vacated 16:00 slot
2007-10-25T13:41:03Z <shellac> good luck?
2007-10-25T13:41:07Z <ericP> i want to compare/constrast different mapping languages
2007-10-25T13:41:10Z <ericP> thanks
2007-10-25T13:41:15Z <shellac> ah, I see
2007-10-25T13:41:29Z <ericP> so, good buddy...
2007-10-25T13:41:42Z <ericP> do you have expertise to offer?
2007-10-25T13:41:55Z <shellac> I think andy may have a slide on squirrels, which is super-simple
2007-10-25T13:41:59Z  * ericP will assemle a strawman
2007-10-25T13:42:01Z <shellac> squirrel's
2007-10-25T13:42:30Z <shellac> erm, you need d2rq example, and (I think most complex) viruoso
2007-10-25T13:42:36Z <shellac> virtuoso
2007-10-25T13:42:44Z  * shellac hunts links
2007-10-25T13:44:10Z <shellac> virtuoso's is like rdb views
2007-10-25T13:45:01Z <LeeF> ericP- why not a panel on mapping?
2007-10-25T13:45:12Z <LeeF> everyone's here
2007-10-25T13:45:20Z <LeeF> could pick a bunch of categories
2007-10-25T13:45:27Z <LeeF> and discuss w/ the panel
2007-10-25T13:46:01Z <ericP> panel, pretty much the info i wanted to get across
2007-10-25T13:46:17Z <LeeF> hmm?
2007-10-25T13:46:41Z <ericP> i wanted to say "given this relational schema, here's how you can set up your mapper to query it with that query"
2007-10-25T13:47:07Z  * LeeF wonders why there's a pink line in the clouds
2007-10-25T13:47:29Z <LeeF> i worry that that level of detail might not come across well in a verbal setting?
2007-10-25T13:47:31Z <ericP> so basically, each tech can present, but we have parallels between the presentations
2007-10-25T13:47:55Z <ericP> let's see if i can convince you or you me during teh coffee break
2007-10-25T13:48:08Z <LeeF> OK
2007-10-25T13:48:58Z <ericP> note, you are already at a disadvantage as we have no chairs
2007-10-25T13:49:46Z <LeeF> I AM A CHAIR
2007-10-25T13:50:59Z <shellac> ...step away from the capslock...
2007-10-25T13:56:46Z <ericP> COTS?
2007-10-25T13:57:14Z <shellac> COTS      Commercial Off-The-Shelf?
2007-10-25T13:57:21Z <ericP> sounds good
2007-10-25T13:58:38Z <shellac> http://www.openacademy.mindef.gov.sg/openacademy/ITseminar/cots.htm
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2007-10-25T14:38:26Z  * timbl looks around
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2007-10-25T15:06:56Z <LeeF> ericP, http://www.w3.org/2007/03/RdfRDB/talks/BoeingW3CPresentation.ppt is 403 Forbidden
2007-10-25T15:08:33Z <ericP> should be fixed now
2007-10-25T15:08:34Z <ericP> tx
2007-10-25T15:10:05Z <LeeF> thx
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2007-10-25T15:13:45Z <cygri> ericP: you're planning a comparison of mapping approaches over lunch?
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2007-10-25T15:32:43Z <ericP> cygri, i'd like to start on it
2007-10-25T15:33:07Z <ericP> i'd like to do more on it during a break-out tomorrow at 9.30
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2007-10-25T15:35:33Z <cygri> ok ... just let me know if you need any input from me
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2007-10-25T15:57:03Z <ericP> cygri, yes please. let's scratch on napkins during lunch
2007-10-25T15:57:28Z <ericP> (i, for instance, have a Dell D820 napkin running Debian Sid)
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2007-10-25T16:19:22Z <ericP> could someone sitting next to chrisB or cygri tell them that i have no slides for them?
2007-10-25T16:23:06Z <UldisB> ericP: done. told chrisB.
2007-10-25T16:24:27Z <ericP> tx kindly
2007-10-25T16:24:38Z <ericP> he's up first thing after lunch
2007-10-25T16:25:05Z -!- cygri [cygri@205.181.102.100] has joined #rdfrdb
2007-10-25T16:25:40Z <ericP> cygri, do you have your slides (you're first presenter after lunch)
2007-10-25T16:28:29Z <cygri> ericP: chrisB does the presentation
2007-10-25T16:28:44Z <cygri> think he has sent you the slides per email a few minutes ago
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2007-10-25T16:37:46Z <ericP> ahh i think he is known as "[Moderator Action]"
2007-10-25T16:38:11Z <ericP> (just that the slides got blocked from going to the list)
2007-10-25T16:38:25Z <ericP> putting them in talks/ space now...
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2007-10-25T17:46:23Z <ericP> welcome Katsu
2007-10-25T17:50:37Z <Katsu> Hi, ericP. Thank you for chairing. I've been on this channel except during lunch.
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2007-10-25T18:04:52Z <ericP> oh good. glad the chairing is working
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2007-10-25T18:45:51Z <ericP> cygri, do you have a MySQL5 server?
2007-10-25T18:46:09Z <ericP> i can give you AlzGene in one of their DB formats
2007-10-25T18:46:16Z <cygri> yes, works for me
2007-10-25T18:46:17Z <ericP> or i can do a mysqldump
2007-10-25T18:46:23Z <ericP> cool. binary first...
2007-10-25T18:48:44Z <ericP> cygri, can you ping 10.130.168.139 ?
2007-10-25T18:48:54Z <ericP> (so you can pick it up off the web)
2007-10-25T18:49:00Z <ericP> ((my web))
2007-10-25T18:49:18Z <cygri> yes
2007-10-25T18:50:35Z <ericP> ok, hacking apache conf
2007-10-25T18:53:18Z <ericP> hmm, better if i zip it so you don't have to wget a zillion files...
2007-10-25T18:56:31Z <ericP> cygri, does http://10.130.168.139/AlzGene.tzf work for you?
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2007-10-25T18:57:06Z <cygri> trying ...
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2007-10-25T19:06:55Z <cygri> ericP, mysql doesn't like the files, seems to be an issue with capitalization of the table names
2007-10-25T19:09:25Z <ericP> fussy bastard
2007-10-25T19:09:36Z <ericP> would a mysqldump help it along?
2007-10-25T19:10:00Z <ericP> i guess that means there aren't many names to hit in the dump
2007-10-25T19:11:26Z <ericP> cygri, try http://10.130.168.139/AlzGene.sql
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2007-10-25T19:18:17Z <ericP> agenda + view update
2007-10-25T19:18:17Z  * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
2007-10-25T19:19:01Z <ericP> agenda + ontology per database
2007-10-25T19:19:01Z  * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
2007-10-25T19:19:33Z <ericP> ivan, timbl, anyowe else, could you please add topics for the discussion at 16.00 ?
2007-10-25T19:19:53Z -!- deanallemang [dallemang@205.181.102.100] has joined #rdfrdb
2007-10-25T19:20:31Z <deanallemang> Paper by Suzette Stoutenberg and her team at Mitre where she uses an Ontology Architecture to have one ontology per database, but then a mediating ontology to merge them together
2007-10-25T19:20:34Z <deanallemang> http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/tech_papers_04/04_1174/
2007-10-25T19:20:35Z <ivan> agenda+ close world/open world differences in a schema/owl mapping?
2007-10-25T19:20:35Z  * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
2007-10-25T19:21:04Z  * ivan thanks Dean
2007-10-25T19:22:07Z <timbl> Agenda+  Will decentralized SPARQL systems scale, or will we ned one huge centralized SPARQL system for public data?
2007-10-25T19:22:07Z  * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
2007-10-25T19:24:08Z <AshokMalhotra> Agenda+ Is there a split beteen folks who want to work on data stores as relational and data stored as RDF?
2007-10-25T19:24:08Z  * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
2007-10-25T19:24:25Z <AshokMalhotra> c/stores/stored/
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2007-10-25T19:26:44Z <deanallemang> Ashok: I don't think so - I think everyone can agree that circumstances will prevent us from storing data in some particular way, so we need to be flexible.  Of course, once I say "everyone", I am sure there will be someone who doesn't
2007-10-25T19:27:18Z <AshokMalhotra> Right!  I just wanted this on the table.
2007-10-25T19:28:07Z <AndyS> How much of OWL are people using in this problem space?
2007-10-25T19:28:58Z <deanallemang> Andy: Have a look at Suzette's paper - she uses intersections/unions, subclass/equivalentclass/subproperty, inverse, and I think hasValue
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2007-10-25T19:30:04Z <AndyS> Thx: is that for the mapping between ontologies or modeling the DBs?
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2007-10-25T19:32:57Z <deanallemang> Mapping - modeling of the ontologies is done pretty much the way the last speaker said - domain/range and owl:Class
2007-10-25T19:34:06Z <ericP> agenda?
2007-10-25T19:34:06Z  * Zakim sees 5 items remaining on the agenda:
2007-10-25T19:34:08Z  * Zakim 1. view update [from ericP]
2007-10-25T19:34:10Z  * Zakim 2. ontology per database [from ericP]
2007-10-25T19:34:11Z  * Zakim 3. close world/open world differences in a schema/owl mapping? [from ivan]
2007-10-25T19:34:13Z  * Zakim 4. Will decentralized SPARQL systems scale, or will we ned one huge centralized SPARQL system for public data? [from timbl]
2007-10-25T19:34:15Z  * Zakim 5. Is there a split beteen folks who want to work on data stores as relational and data stored as RDF? [from AshokMalhotra]
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2007-10-25T19:34:29Z <AndyS_> So there is scope to execute efficiently.  Cool.
2007-10-25T19:35:50Z <ericP> cygri, any luck with http://10.130.168.139/AlzGene.sql ?
2007-10-25T19:36:01Z <eneumann> has the topic of locating reverse references been addressed yet?
2007-10-25T19:36:29Z <ericP> i don't believe so. could you explain/motivate it some?
2007-10-25T19:37:30Z <cygri> ericP: yes, i'm setting up a D2R Server for the DB ... can you send me the schema diagram too so i can see all the joins?
2007-10-25T19:37:42Z <eneumann> It goes something like this: "I would like to know everything linked to or said about this RDB entity, especially if it is outside its own table"?
2007-10-25T19:37:55Z <ericP> cygri, http://ashby.csail.mit.edu/web/Outlook.jpg
2007-10-25T19:38:02Z <ericP> boucning you a mail now...
2007-10-25T19:38:32Z <ericP> email addr?
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2007-10-25T19:39:25Z <kidehen> ericP: s3.amazonaws.com/kingsley/Browser_based_Visual_SQL_to_RDF_Mapping_Tool.ppt re. RDF Visual Mapping presentation
2007-10-25T19:39:40Z <kidehen> ericP: as in http://s3.amazonaws.com/kingsley/Browser_based_Visual_SQL_to_RDF_Mapping_Tool.ppt
2007-10-25T19:40:23Z <ericP> kidehen, this replaces the current link to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/RdfRDB/papers/erling.html ?
2007-10-25T19:40:40Z <ericP> (link from http://www.w3.org/2007/03/RdfRDB/program )
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2007-10-25T19:45:32Z <ericP> eneumann, i'm trying to understand when i'd want reverse references, and how i'd implement it
2007-10-25T19:46:42Z <ericP> that is, beyond what [[SELECT ?referrer WHERE { ?referrer references <somePage> }]]
2007-10-25T19:46:51Z <ericP> ... answers
2007-10-25T19:47:34Z <AndyS_> even that's hard when <somepage> can be in any DB
2007-10-25T19:47:57Z <eneumann> many orgs want to know all annotations and links made about things that sit inside RDBs, but these links (triples) are highly distributed. There are a couple of ways to implement this, but most borrow strategies from Google's 'barrels'
2007-10-25T19:47:59Z <ericP> yeah, hence the "how i'd implement it"
2007-10-25T19:48:08Z <AndyS_> and references is DB spanning
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2007-10-25T19:49:57Z <cygri> ericP: work in progress here: http://10.130.168.109/
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2007-10-25T19:59:10Z <ericP> cygri, cooool
2007-10-25T20:02:32Z <ericP> cygri, i bounced you a sample query. i might have abbreviated it correctly here:
2007-10-25T20:02:33Z <ericP> [[
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>   PREFIX ag: <http://localhost:8890/test/schemas/AlzGene#>
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>   SELECT ?paName ?locus ?ethn ?pubmed ?resl FROM <.example> WHERE {
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>     ?gene ag:geneAlias "CTSD" ; ag:locus ?locus .
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>     ?prot ag:geneRecord ?gene ; ag:proteinAlias ?paName .
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>     ?ethd ag:eth2geneRecord ?gene ; ag:studyRecord ?stud ; ag:ethnicity ?ethn ; ag:result ?resl .
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>     ?stud ag:pubmed ?pubmed ; ag:studyName ?stname }
2007-10-25T20:02:36Z <ericP> ]]
2007-10-25T20:08:44Z <ericP> http://10.130.168.109/sparql?query=PREFIX%20ag%3A%20%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Flocalhost%3A8890%2Ftest%2Fschemas%2FAlzGene%23%3E%0ASELECT%20%3FpaName%20%3Flocus%20%3Fethn%20%3Fpubmed%20%3Fresl%20WHERE%20%7B%0A%20%20%3Fgene%20ag%3AgeneAlias%20%22CTSD%22%20%3\
B%20ag%3Alocus%20%3Flocus%20.%0A%20%20%3Fprot%20ag%3AgeneRecord%20%3Fgene%20%3B%20ag%3AproteinAlias%20%3FpaName%20.%0A%20%20%3Fethd%20ag%3Aeth2geneRecord%20%3Fgene%20%3B%20ag%3AstudyRecord%20%3Fstud%20%3B%20ag%3Aethnicity%20%3Fethn%20%3B%20ag%3Aresult%20%3Fresl%20.%0A%20%20%\
3Fstud%20ag%3Apubmed%20%3Fpubmed%20%3B%20ag%3AstudyName%20%3Fstname%20%7D
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2007-10-25T20:09:23Z <ericP> agenda?
2007-10-25T20:09:23Z  * Zakim sees 5 items remaining on the agenda:
2007-10-25T20:09:24Z  * Zakim 1. view update [from ericP]
2007-10-25T20:09:25Z  * Zakim 2. ontology per database [from ericP]
2007-10-25T20:09:26Z  * Zakim 3. close world/open world differences in a schema/owl mapping? [from ivan]
2007-10-25T20:09:29Z  * Zakim 4. Will decentralized SPARQL systems scale, or will we ned one huge centralized SPARQL system for public data? [from timbl]
2007-10-25T20:09:31Z  * Zakim 5. Is there a split beteen folks who want to work on data stores as relational and data stored as RDF? [from AshokMalhotra]
2007-10-25T20:10:17Z <ericP> q+ centralized vs. distributed
2007-10-25T20:10:17Z  * Zakim sees centralized, vs., distributed on the speaker queue
2007-10-25T20:10:30Z <ivan> agenda+ benchmarks
2007-10-25T20:10:30Z  * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
2007-10-25T20:10:33Z <ericP> agenda+ centralized vs. distributed
2007-10-25T20:10:33Z  * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
2007-10-25T20:10:52Z <ivan> agenda?
2007-10-25T20:10:52Z  * Zakim sees 7 items remaining on the agenda:
2007-10-25T20:10:54Z  * Zakim 1. view update [from ericP]
2007-10-25T20:10:55Z  * Zakim 2. ontology per database [from ericP]
2007-10-25T20:10:55Z -!- AndyS [AndyS_@192.6.19.190] has joined #rdfrdb
2007-10-25T20:10:56Z  * Zakim 3. close world/open world differences in a schema/owl mapping? [from ivan]
2007-10-25T20:10:58Z  * Zakim 4. Will decentralized SPARQL systems scale, or will we ned one huge centralized SPARQL system for public data? [from timbl]
2007-10-25T20:11:02Z  * Zakim 5. Is there a split beteen folks who want to work on data stores as relational and data stored as RDF? [from AshokMalhotra]
2007-10-25T20:11:05Z  * Zakim 6. benchmarks [from ivan]
2007-10-25T20:11:06Z  * Zakim 7. centralized vs. distributed [from ericP]
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2007-10-25T20:13:38Z <AndyS> So that use case was very reasonable. No large vendors are targetting it - maybe it is because it is not a single problem space when you push into the detail.
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2007-10-25T20:22:08Z <deanallemang> Topic Proposal:  Propagating updates from RDF views back to underlying datasources
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2007-10-25T20:25:33Z <AndyS> If you missed the URL: http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/tech_papers_04/04_1174/
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2007-10-25T20:29:54Z <AndyS> Expections of RDF Schema / OWL for constraints
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2007-10-25T20:30:07Z <ericP> tx AndyS
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2007-10-25T20:32:34Z <AndyS> EricNeumann: Close world : exploit to produce efficient solutions
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2007-10-25T20:34:39Z <AndyS> Orri: Whole semantic web - very large - federated query requires source description and discovery - meta infor for query plans
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2007-10-25T20:38:47Z <AndyS> Kingsley: what if the big players expose linked data?  Suggest that the time is coming when that will happen.
2007-10-25T20:39:18Z  * AndyS hopes people will correct as needed
2007-10-25T20:39:59Z <AndyS> Ashok: will it change to RDF?
2007-10-25T20:40:22Z <AndyS> Michael: specialized store arise to meet these needs
2007-10-25T20:42:17Z  * timbl updates http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/wiki/Projects.rdf#n27
2007-10-25T20:42:19Z <AndyS> ... Existing players suggest using current databases.  Engines become (have become) very complex.
2007-10-25T20:42:42Z <AndyS> Ivan: == Benchmarks
2007-10-25T20:42:52Z <AndyS> ... community work in some form?
2007-10-25T20:43:46Z <AndyS> ... XG tomorrow.
2007-10-25T20:45:40Z <AndyS> THALIA: http://esw.w3.org/topic/TaskForces/CommunityProjects/LinkingOpenData/THALIATestbed
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2007-10-25T20:50:18Z  * LeeF apologized for having to run out on what i'm sure is a very interesting discussion :(
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2007-10-25T20:50:18Z  * LeeF apologized for having to run out on what i'm sure is a very interesting discussion :(

Break-out Topics

  • XX view update [from ericP]
  • XX ontology per database [from ericP]
  • close world/open world differences in a schema/owl mapping? reported by Andreas
  unseen triples may affect quality reasoning.

  local closed world
  • Will decentralized SPARQL systems scale, or will we ned one huge centralized SPARQL system for public data? reported by Dean
  parallels between DB federation and federal federation

  security issues

  social and technological problem
  • Is there a split beteen folks who want to work on data stores as relational and data stored as RDF? reported by Ashok
    • existing relational data can be seen as RDF
    • choice about how to express [authoritative] new data
    • will you get more useful data by making your new data RDF and applying inference?
  • benchmarks. reported by ChrisB
    • nothing current meets our needs
    • performance of triple stores
    • performance of mapping languages
    • mapping expressivity
    • TPCC used in relational world -- would need to be scaled you
    • ..MB used for scalability benchmarks
    • THALIA
    • SPARQL test suite
    • structured vs. less structured test data
    • best practices
    • next steps: W3C XG
  • XX performance -- absrobed by benchmarks
  • mapping -- RichardC
    • mapping styles:
      • prefix mapping
      • predicate[/tuple] mapping
      • graph mapping
      • value mapping
  • espressions
    • views -- virtuoso
    • RDF graph -- d2r
    • rules -- SquirrelRDF and some FeDeRate implementation (also another I forget)
  • bijection (two way) mappings possible and desirable?
  • XX is GRDDL(XML)→RDF an acceptable message?

Future Work

  • benchmarks
  • mapping
  • federation
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