None.
<sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/TPAC_2010
<sandro> Chair: Sandro
<sandro> Present: Sandro
<sandro> Guest: Karen (karen) Myers, http://www.w3.org/People/domain?domain=Communications#karen%40w3.org, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Jeni Tennison, TSO
<sandro> Guest: Daniel (dd) Dardailler, http://www.w3.org/People/danield/, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Roger Cutler, Chevron
<sandro> Guest: Phil Archer, W3C and Talis
<sandro> Guest: Martin Alvarez, CTIC
<sandro> Guest: Thomas Bandholtz
<sandro> Guest: Antonio Sergio Cangiano, SERPRO (Brazilian Federal Agency of Information Technology)
<sandro> Guest: Jose Leocadio, SERPRO (Brazilian Federal Agency of Information Technology)
<sandro> Guest: Yosuke Funahashi, Tomo-Digi Corporation
<sandro> Guest: Vagner (Vagner-br) Diniz, NIC.br
<sandro> Guest: Karen Burns, New Zealand State Services Commission
<sandro> Guest: Tim (TimBL) Berners-Lee, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Robin (darobin) Berjon
<sandro> Guest: Fabien Gandon, INRIA
<sandro> Topic: Morning Introductions
08:00:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-irc ←
08:01:13 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public'
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make logs public' ←
08:01:14 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
08:01:20 <sandro> People in room, in order:
Sandro Hawke: People in room, in order: ←
08:01:20 <sandro> Karen Myers
Sandro Hawke: Karen Myers ←
08:01:20 <sandro> Sandro Hawke
Sandro Hawke: Sandro Hawke ←
08:01:20 <sandro> Jeni Tennison
Sandro Hawke: Jeni Tennison ←
08:01:20 <sandro> Daniel Dardailler
Sandro Hawke: Daniel Dardailler ←
08:01:21 <sandro> Roger Cutler
Sandro Hawke: Roger Cutler ←
08:01:23 <sandro> Phil Archer, W3T + Talis
Sandro Hawke: Phil Archer, W3T + Talis ←
08:01:27 <sandro> MartÃn Ãlvarez, Fundación CTIC
Sandro Hawke: MartÃn Ãlvarez, Fundación CTIC ←
08:01:29 <sandro> Thomas Bandholtz Germany -- LD Environrment Data
Sandro Hawke: Thomas Bandholtz Germany -- LD Environrment Data ←
08:01:31 <sandro> Antonio Sergio Cangiano, SERPRO
Sandro Hawke: Antonio Sergio Cangiano, SERPRO ←
08:01:33 <sandro> Jose Leocadio, SERPRO
Sandro Hawke: Jose Leocadio, SERPRO ←
08:01:35 <sandro> Yosuke Funahashi, Tomo-Digi Corporation
Sandro Hawke: Yosuke Funahashi, Tomo-Digi Corporation ←
08:01:37 <sandro> Vagner Diniz
Sandro Hawke: Vagner Diniz ←
08:01:39 <sandro> Karen Burns
Sandro Hawke: Karen Burns ←
08:03:30 <PhilA> scribe: PhilA
(Scribe set to Phil Archer)
08:03:35 <PhilA> scribeNick:PhilA
<sandro> Topic: eGov Education and Outreach
08:03:39 <karen> Daniel: Are we going to talk about the creation of a task force to look at education and outreach?
Daniel Dardailler: Are we going to talk about the creation of a task force to look at education and outreach? [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ] ←
08:03:55 <PhilA> DD: Raises issue of non-tech education & outreach
Daniel Dardailler: Raises issue of non-tech education & outreach ←
08:04:04 <PhilA> .. (as possible agenda item later)
.. (as possible agenda item later) ←
08:04:33 <PhilA> Karen: 1.5 yrs ago we had an active task force
Karen Myers: 1.5 yrs ago we had an active task force ←
08:04:40 <PhilA> .. comm team etc. planning lots of stuff
.. comm team etc. planning lots of stuff ←
08:04:59 <PhilA> .. then there was a shift in priorities, and Josema left. It was very effective when we were doing it
.. then there was a shift in priorities, and Josema left. It was very effective when we were doing it ←
08:05:27 <PhilA> .. I have a personal interest. We have some support from our PR firm that has a knowledge base in this area.
.. I have a personal interest. We have some support from our PR firm that has a knowledge base in this area. ←
08:05:37 <PhilA> .. but it's US-based. Need a more global view
.. but it's US-based. Need a more global view ←
08:06:03 <PhilA> DD: There is funding from the EU to help PSI
Daniel Dardailler: There is funding from the EU to help PSI ←
08:06:11 <PhilA> Karen: I like the idea of a TF.
Karen Myers: I like the idea of a TF. ←
08:06:31 <PhilA> .. if there's a need for an IG just looking at that, all well and good
.. if there's a need for an IG just looking at that, all well and good ←
08:06:40 <PhilA> DD: we could spin off other groups from the IG
Daniel Dardailler: we could spin off other groups from the IG ←
08:07:08 <PhilA> Karen: We need high level messages - what is open data, what is Linked data etc.
Karen Myers: We need high level messages - what is open data, what is Linked data etc. ←
08:07:17 <PhilA> PhilA: Talis is interested in this ;-)
Phil Archer: Talis is interested in this ;-) ←
08:07:29 <PhilA> Sandro: Others?
Sandro Hawke: Others? ←
08:07:46 <PhilA> Interest in the room from New Zealand, Brazil and more
Interest in the room from New Zealand, Brazil and more ←
08:08:02 <sandro> Karen B, Vagner
Sandro Hawke: Karen B, Vagner ←
08:08:05 <karen> Vagner Diniz, Karen Burns
Karen Myers: Vagner Diniz, Karen Burns ←
08:09:16 <PhilA> action: Daniel D to set up task Force on EO
ACTION: Daniel D to set up task Force on EO ←
08:09:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-118 - D to set up task Force on EO [on Daniel Bennett - due 2010-11-09].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-118 - D to set up task Force on EO [on Daniel Bennett - due 2010-11-09]. ←
08:10:14 <PhilA> Topic: Linked data at data.gov.uk
08:10:25 <PhilA> Jeni: Takes the floor...
Jeni Tennison: Takes the floor... ←
08:10:40 <PhilA> .. shows data.gov.uk Web Site
.. shows data.gov.uk Web Site ←
08:10:59 <sandro> ACTION-118 is really on Daniel Dardailler not Daniel Bennett.
Sandro Hawke: ACTION-118 is really on Daniel Dardailler not Daniel Bennett. ←
08:11:03 <PhilA> (http://data.gov.uk)
08:11:31 <PhilA> Jeni: Most data is in CSV or XML. Some, but not much, LD
Jeni Tennison: Most data is in CSV or XML. Some, but not much, LD ←
08:11:54 <PhilA> .. explains the term 'organogram' to mean org chart, organisational info etc.
.. explains the term 'organogram' to mean org chart, organisational info etc. ←
08:12:26 <PhilA> .. an edict from gov said that all departments should publish their organograms on data.gov.uk, and it specified what info had to be included
.. an edict from gov said that all departments should publish their organograms on data.gov.uk, and it specified what info had to be included ←
08:12:38 <PhilA> .. about 62 on d.g.u now
.. about 62 on d.g.u now ←
08:13:04 <PhilA> .. majority published a PDF of their organisational structure
.. majority published a PDF of their organisational structure ←
08:13:28 <PhilA> .. pretty pictures with tables that don't help a lot as there's no data to pull out
.. pretty pictures with tables that don't help a lot as there's no data to pull out ←
08:13:45 <PhilA> rrsagent, make logs public
rrsagent, make logs public ←
08:14:10 <PhilA> Jeni: some of the org charts use headings defined centrally
Jeni Tennison: some of the org charts use headings defined centrally ←
08:14:16 <PhilA> .. some published as Power Point
.. some published as Power Point ←
08:14:27 <PhilA> .. senior post data includes reporting structures
.. senior post data includes reporting structures ←
08:14:32 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
rrsagent, draft minutes ←
08:14:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA ←
08:15:02 <PhilA> Jeni: shows a CSV file
Jeni Tennison: shows a CSV file ←
08:15:24 <PhilA> .. talks about 'Gridworks', now renamed 'Google Refine'
.. talks about 'Gridworks', now renamed 'Google Refine' ←
08:15:45 <PhilA> .. see http://code.google.com/p/google-refine/
.. see http://code.google.com/p/google-refine/ ←
08:15:51 <PhilA> Roger C: That's cool!
Roger C: That's cool! ←
08:15:56 <PhilA> Jeni: yes it is!
Jeni Tennison: yes it is! ←
08:16:13 <PhilA> .. important tool for cleaning up data
.. important tool for cleaning up data ←
08:16:23 <PhilA> .. sometehing that non-specialists can use
.. sometehing that non-specialists can use ←
08:16:37 <PhilA> .. Demos Google Refine
.. Demos Google Refine ←
08:16:55 <PhilA> .. You can see the facets for a column, edit values that have gone wrong, edit column names
.. You can see the facets for a column, edit values that have gone wrong, edit column names ←
08:17:46 <PhilA> .. the key point is that civil servants can use this tool
.. the key point is that civil servants can use this tool ←
08:18:05 <PhilA> .. we have gone round training a bunch of civil servants. Lots of good feedback. People have begun using it
.. we have gone round training a bunch of civil servants. Lots of good feedback. People have begun using it ←
08:18:32 <PhilA> .. extremely nice features around reconciling data around already published data
.. extremely nice features around reconciling data around already published data ←
08:18:57 <PhilA> .. you can ask the tool to reconcile a column
.. you can ask the tool to reconcile a column ←
08:19:15 <sandro> gridworks "reconcile" to link to web data. nice!
Sandro Hawke: gridworks "reconcile" to link to web data. nice! ←
08:19:17 <PhilA> .. turns strings into links (if it finds relevant data)
.. turns strings into links (if it finds relevant data) ←
08:19:41 <PhilA> Jeni: You can do a bit of manual work to produce clean RDF without actually handling RDF (knowlingly)
Jeni Tennison: You can do a bit of manual work to produce clean RDF without actually handling RDF (knowlingly) ←
08:19:45 <PhilA> .. you can apply scripts
.. you can apply scripts ←
08:19:56 <PhilA> .. shows adding a column for, in this case, provenance
.. shows adding a column for, in this case, provenance ←
08:20:08 <PhilA> .. data.gov.uk tries to keep track of where we get data from
.. data.gov.uk tries to keep track of where we get data from ←
08:21:14 <PhilA> .. and if I open up a script (in this case, a bit of JSON). Paste that in and apply those instructions - it will perform various tasks, creating extra columns etc.
.. and if I open up a script (in this case, a bit of JSON). Paste that in and apply those instructions - it will perform various tasks, creating extra columns etc. ←
08:21:25 <PhilA> .. my script adds in lots of URIs in this case
.. my script adds in lots of URIs in this case ←
08:21:34 <PhilA> .. (URIs central to linked data)
.. (URIs central to linked data) ←
08:22:15 <PhilA> .. DERI has created a plug in that describes the data
.. DERI has created a plug in that describes the data ←
08:22:40 <PhilA> .. now can export the data as turtle or RDF/XML
.. now can export the data as turtle or RDF/XML ←
08:22:58 <PhilA> (Shows RDF generated from the CSV)
(Shows RDF generated from the CSV) ←
08:23:23 <PhilA> Jeni: You can see the different posts within 'BIS' (Department of Business Innovation and Skills)
Jeni Tennison: You can see the different posts within 'BIS' (Department of Business Innovation and Skills) ←
08:23:37 <PhilA> .. we run several stores, mostly hosted by Talis
.. we run several stores, mostly hosted by Talis ←
08:23:39 <sandro> (I wonder if there's a way to simplify that script application process....)
Sandro Hawke: (I wonder if there's a way to simplify that script application process....) ←
08:23:53 <PhilA> .. they bring together data sets for, say, transport
.. they bring together data sets for, say, transport ←
08:23:58 <PhilA> .. then one on education and so on
.. then one on education and so on ←
08:24:06 <PhilA> .. organogram data is "reference data"
.. organogram data is "reference data" ←
08:24:17 <PhilA> i.e. http://reference.data.gov.uk
i.e. http://reference.data.gov.uk ←
08:24:49 <PhilA> (Shows SPARQL queries against BIS organogram data). Live. No safety net
(Shows SPARQL queries against BIS organogram data). Live. No safety net ←
08:25:09 <PhilA> Voila! Some results
Voila! Some results ←
08:25:38 <PhilA> Jeni: Most people, including developers, don't react well to being asked to write SPARQL queries
Jeni Tennison: Most people, including developers, don't react well to being asked to write SPARQL queries ←
08:25:56 <PhilA> .. so we have added a layer on top of the SPARQL to provide a simpler API
.. so we have added a layer on top of the SPARQL to provide a simpler API ←
08:26:06 <PhilA> .. I'll show you the basic Linked data API first of all
.. I'll show you the basic Linked data API first of all ←
08:27:31 <PhilA> http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/department/bis
http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/department/bis ←
08:27:42 <PhilA> Shows how this gives a 303 to http://reference.data.gov.uk/doc/department/bis
Shows how this gives a 303 to http://reference.data.gov.uk/doc/department/bis ←
08:27:56 <PhilA> demos exploring the data
demos exploring the data ←
08:28:21 <karen> q+
Karen Myers: q+ ←
08:28:49 <PhilA> ack ka
ack ka ←
08:28:56 <PhilA> Karen: This is fabulous
Karen Myers: This is fabulous ←
08:29:05 <PhilA> .. practical question - who is updating the data?
.. practical question - who is updating the data? ←
08:29:33 <PhilA> Jeni: the generic answer is "how long is a piece of string". Some data changes daily, some changes much less frequently
Jeni Tennison: the generic answer is "how long is a piece of string". Some data changes daily, some changes much less frequently ←
08:29:58 <PhilA> .. for organogram work, the stipulation was that data should be valid on 30/6/10 and should be updated every 6 months
.. for organogram work, the stipulation was that data should be valid on 30/6/10 and should be updated every 6 months ←
08:30:08 <PhilA> Karen: How did the departments react?
Karen Myers: How did the departments react? ←
08:30:22 <PhilA> Jeni: It was hard. it took a big stick from the Cabinet office to get it done
Jeni Tennison: It was hard. it took a big stick from the Cabinet office to get it done ←
08:30:37 <PhilA> Jeni: Most departmetns have generated just a PDF or a POwer Point
Jeni Tennison: Most departmetns have generated just a PDF or a POwer Point ←
08:30:48 <PhilA> .. some generated a CSV (prob by HR with help from IT dept)
.. some generated a CSV (prob by HR with help from IT dept) ←
08:31:06 <PhilA> .. generation of RDF was done by me (x 6). One dept has done it themselves
.. generation of RDF was done by me (x 6). One dept has done it themselves ←
08:31:16 <PhilA> Karen: And they can navigate this UI?
Karen Myers: And they can navigate this UI? ←
08:31:41 <PhilA> Jeni: This UI is designed to show them the benefit of doing it as LD. Shwoing that people can navigate around the data
Jeni Tennison: This UI is designed to show them the benefit of doing it as LD. Shwoing that people can navigate around the data ←
08:31:49 <PhilA> .. you can see the different sources of the data
.. you can see the different sources of the data ←
08:32:02 <PhilA> Sandro: Is everyone's salary info public by law?
Sandro Hawke: Is everyone's salary info public by law? ←
08:32:15 <PhilA> Jeni: Top civil servants - although it's not by law, it's the culture
Jeni Tennison: Top civil servants - although it's not by law, it's the culture ←
08:32:40 <PhilA> Roger: Who wants to do this and why?
Roger Cutler: Who wants to do this and why? ←
08:33:01 <PhilA> Jeni: WE have a strong developer community in the UK. They want to get hold of gov data, package it and so on
Jeni Tennison: WE have a strong developer community in the UK. They want to get hold of gov data, package it and so on ←
08:33:22 <PhilA> .. they usually want to pursue this for lobbying or political ends
.. they usually want to pursue this for lobbying or political ends ←
08:33:45 <PhilA> Jeni: person X is claiming ABC on their expenses, is this right?
Jeni Tennison: person X is claiming ABC on their expenses, is this right? ←
08:34:14 <PhilA> .. personally I don't find that the most interesting data that governments can put out but it is where the current political drive is in the UK
.. personally I don't find that the most interesting data that governments can put out but it is where the current political drive is in the UK ←
08:34:22 <PhilA> Karen: it is tangible though
Karen Myers: it is tangible though ←
08:34:34 <PhilA> Jeni: School performance is something that people can relate to as well
Jeni Tennison: School performance is something that people can relate to as well ←
08:35:15 <PhilA> Jeni: completes demo
Jeni Tennison: completes demo ←
08:35:37 <PhilA> .. this helps people explore the data and find out where the data came from
.. this helps people explore the data and find out where the data came from ←
08:36:34 <sandro> exploring http://reference.data.gov.uk/doc/department/bis
Sandro Hawke: exploring http://reference.data.gov.uk/doc/department/bis ←
08:36:40 <PhilA> .. shows XML data, or JSON data - the interface allows you to access the data in various formats. Just add .xml or .json to the URI. That's what the Linked data API is about
.. shows XML data, or JSON data - the interface allows you to access the data in various formats. Just add .xml or .json to the URI. That's what the Linked data API is about ←
08:37:16 <PhilA> Jeni: So much for the data, available as an explorer and as data for developers. But it's not especially pretty
Jeni Tennison: So much for the data, available as an explorer and as data for developers. But it's not especially pretty ←
08:37:25 <PhilA> Jeni: so let's see if we can find a pretty output
Jeni Tennison: so let's see if we can find a pretty output ←
08:37:39 <PhilA> Demos BIS organogram visualisation
Demos BIS organogram visualisation ←
08:38:12 <PhilA> http://danpaulsmith.com/gov/orgvis/?dept=bis
http://danpaulsmith.com/gov/orgvis/?dept=bis ←
08:38:51 <PhilA> Sandro: Does it go all the way ip to the prime minister?
Sandro Hawke: Does it go all the way ip to the prime minister? ←
08:39:17 <sandro> sandro: if you want to get on this giant org chart, give us your RDF
Sandro Hawke: if you want to get on this giant org chart, give us your RDF [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
08:39:24 <PhilA> Jeni: Not yet, but that would be cool, especially if it came out of all the different data sets created by different departments. The overall org chart comes out of its component parts - if you use linked data
Jeni Tennison: Not yet, but that would be cool, especially if it came out of all the different data sets created by different departments. The overall org chart comes out of its component parts - if you use linked data ←
08:39:45 <PhilA> Jeni: Getting to an end to end story like this has taken several months
Jeni Tennison: Getting to an end to end story like this has taken several months ←
08:40:04 <PhilA> .. we had to work out what URIs should look like for different departments. This is a department within a department, a unit etc.
.. we had to work out what URIs should look like for different departments. This is a department within a department, a unit etc. ←
08:40:28 <PhilA> .. we had to create some vocabularies for organisational structures generally and then specifically for UK
.. we had to create some vocabularies for organisational structures generally and then specifically for UK ←
08:40:35 <PhilA> .. provenance data is very important
.. provenance data is very important ←
08:40:58 <PhilA> .. statistics around salary costs - needed a vocabulary for talking about statistical dta
.. statistics around salary costs - needed a vocabulary for talking about statistical dta ←
08:41:17 <PhilA> .. and those fundamental design choices etc. had to be done to support the kind of end to end story we've been looking at here
.. and those fundamental design choices etc. had to be done to support the kind of end to end story we've been looking at here ←
08:41:36 <karen> q+
Karen Myers: q+ ←
08:41:40 <PhilA> Sandro: Those vocabularies sound like candidates for standardisation
Sandro Hawke: Those vocabularies sound like candidates for standardisation ←
08:42:38 <PhilA> Roger: AIUI you started by defining standardised things. In the tool you had a reconciliation step that knew what to do with the data. So it must have been pretty close for automated reconciliation
Roger Cutler: AIUI you started by defining standardised things. In the tool you had a reconciliation step that knew what to do with the data. So it must have been pretty close for automated reconciliation ←
08:42:44 <PhilA> .. what does that depend on?
.. what does that depend on? ←
08:43:21 <PhilA> Jeni: Gridworks takes the values that it finds in the column. Takes a sample, sends it to a reconciliation service - an API for this kind of thing
Jeni Tennison: Gridworks takes the values that it finds in the column. Takes a sample, sends it to a reconciliation service - an API for this kind of thing ←
08:43:47 <PhilA> .. the Rec service looks at the values, looks at the data it has, and works out what it looks like and what vocab is appropriate
.. the Rec service looks at the values, looks at the data it has, and works out what it looks like and what vocab is appropriate ←
08:43:50 <sandro> sandro: I've put those vocabularies, as best I understood, into the GLD WG Work Items list, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items
Sandro Hawke: I've put those vocabularies, as best I understood, into the GLD WG Work Items list, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
08:45:38 <PhilA> .. recognising "John Smith" as a name cf. "Smith, John" is something the reconciliation service does. Leigh Dodds (Talis) created a good example of this
.. recognising "John Smith" as a name cf. "Smith, John" is something the reconciliation service does. Leigh Dodds (Talis) created a good example of this ←
08:46:08 <PhilA> See http://www.ldodds.com/blog/2010/08/gridworks-reconciliation-api-implementation/
See http://www.ldodds.com/blog/2010/08/gridworks-reconciliation-api-implementation/ ←
08:46:48 <PhilA> Further discussion on how this works between Roger, Jeni and Sandro
Further discussion on how this works between Roger, Jeni and Sandro ←
08:47:11 <PhilA> Roger: How does a salaray get recognised as a salary
Roger Cutler: How does a salaray get recognised as a salary ←
08:47:17 <PhilA> Jeni: That's in the RDF schema
Jeni Tennison: That's in the RDF schema ←
08:47:24 <sandro> sandro: so reconciliation takes strings which are intended to be identifiers and turns them into proper URI identifiers
Sandro Hawke: so reconciliation takes strings which are intended to be identifiers and turns them into proper URI identifiers [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
08:47:32 <PhilA> .. and we can use the CSV column name as the hook
.. and we can use the CSV column name as the hook ←
08:47:49 <PhilA> Roger: so "salary" might match and "sal" won't
Roger Cutler: so "salary" might match and "sal" won't ←
08:47:51 <PhilA> Jeni: yes
Jeni Tennison: yes ←
08:48:07 <PhilA> Roger: So there's a certain amount of fixing up of "user data"
Roger Cutler: So there's a certain amount of fixing up of "user data" ←
08:48:08 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
08:48:09 <PhilA> ack kar
ack kar ←
08:48:24 <PhilA> karen: What is the UK gov policy towards the APIs?
Karen Myers: What is the UK gov policy towards the APIs? ←
08:49:26 <PhilA> jeni: The Linked data API is on Google Code and anyone can use it http://code.google.com/p/linked-data-api/
Jeni Tennison: The Linked data API is on Google Code and anyone can use it http://code.google.com/p/linked-data-api/ ←
08:50:09 <PhilA> Talis implementation in PHP http://code.google.com/p/puelia-php/
Talis implementation in PHP http://code.google.com/p/puelia-php/ ←
08:50:39 <PhilA> Karen: Are you shouting about this?
Karen Myers: Are you shouting about this? ←
08:50:42 <PhilA> Jeni: yes
Jeni Tennison: yes ←
08:51:06 <PhilA> Sandro: The Linked data API work was presented at various meetings
Sandro Hawke: The Linked data API work was presented at various meetings ←
08:51:20 <PhilA> karen: so it needs more outreach
Karen Myers: so it needs more outreach ←
08:51:33 <PhilA> Roger: I'd like to hear more about how politicians talk about this?
Roger Cutler: I'd like to hear more about how politicians talk about this? ←
08:51:41 <PhilA> Jeni: Gordon brown got it and understood it
Jeni Tennison: Gordon brown got it and understood it ←
08:52:02 <sandro> It's a possible item for GLD WG: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items#Developer-Friendly_API_and_Serialization
Sandro Hawke: It's a possible item for GLD WG: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items#Developer-Friendly_API_and_Serialization ←
08:52:43 <PhilA> .. current government see it as part of the transparency agenda. Making data available in a machine readable format
.. current government see it as part of the transparency agenda. Making data available in a machine readable format ←
08:59:45 <PhilA> Roger: Made the point that organisational capability, software support etc. is really important for commercial companies etc.
(No events recorded for 7 minutes)
Roger Cutler: Made the point that organisational capability, software support etc. is really important for commercial companies etc. ←
08:59:54 <PhilA> Vagner; Jeni talks about visualisation
Vagner; Jeni talks about visualisation ←
09:00:09 <PhilA> .. has W3C done any work on visualisation?
.. has W3C done any work on visualisation? ←
09:00:20 <PhilA> Sandro; beyond CSS and SVG, I'm not aware of any
Sandro; beyond CSS and SVG, I'm not aware of any ←
09:00:37 <PhilA> Vagner: You added this item on the WG. I wonder if it's something we need to discuss?
Vagner Diniz: You added this item on the WG. I wonder if it's something we need to discuss? ←
09:00:57 <PhilA> Sandro: That's coming out of the data.gov.uk work but I don't know any more detail
Sandro Hawke: That's coming out of the data.gov.uk work but I don't know any more detail ←
09:02:53 <PhilA> PhilA: I think an RDF-SVG link would be cool
Phil Archer: I think an RDF-SVG link would be cool ←
09:03:21 <PhilA> Fabien: Talks about an existing effort to link CSS, SPARQL and more
Fabien Gandon: Talks about an existing effort to link CSS, SPARQL and more ←
09:03:45 <PhilA> Topic: Open data initiatives in Spain
09:04:08 <PhilA> Martin: Shows map drawn in SVG, lots of tables in RDF so we're already linking RDf and SVG
Martin Alvarez: Shows map drawn in SVG, lots of tables in RDF so we're already linking RDf and SVG ←
09:04:16 <PhilA> Sandro: What's the linkage?
Sandro Hawke: What's the linkage? ←
09:04:25 <PhilA> Martin: I think it's Java
Martin Alvarez: I think it's Java ←
09:04:32 <PhilA> Martin: begins talk
Martin Alvarez: begins talk ←
09:04:42 <FabGandon> http://www.cytoscape.org/ Cytoscape combines SPARQL CONSTRUCT with a graph interface to allow the user to select and render RDF data
Fabien Gandon: http://www.cytoscape.org/ Cytoscape combines SPARQL CONSTRUCT with a graph interface to allow the user to select and render RDF data ←
09:05:21 <PhilA> Martin: Open Data act 2007
Martin Alvarez: Open Data act 2007 ←
09:05:53 <PhilA> .. aim to create catalogue of open gov data
.. aim to create catalogue of open gov data ←
09:06:05 <FabGandon> more precisely the S*QL plugin for cytoscape http://semtech2010.semanticuniverse.com/sessionPop.cfm?confid=42&proposalid=2932
Fabien Gandon: more precisely the S*QL plugin for cytoscape http://semtech2010.semanticuniverse.com/sessionPop.cfm?confid=42&proposalid=2932 ←
09:06:26 <PhilA> .. 3 regional governments (Asturias) Basque and Catalonia
.. 3 regional governments (Asturias) Basque and Catalonia ←
09:06:50 <PhilA> Shows Asturias catalogue
Shows Asturias catalogue ←
09:06:58 <PhilA> Martin: only 4 data sets but all linked
Martin Alvarez: only 4 data sets but all linked ←
09:07:36 <PhilA> .. uses things like the organisation vocab, iCal etc.
.. uses things like the organisation vocab, iCal etc. ←
09:07:49 <PhilA> .. project is 100% linked data, hosted on our own Oracle triple store
.. project is 100% linked data, hosted on our own Oracle triple store ←
09:08:16 <PhilA> .. we've added some Jena modules (and our own) to create SPARQL endpoints etc.
.. we've added some Jena modules (and our own) to create SPARQL endpoints etc. ←
09:08:27 <PhilA> .. metadata modelled using VoID
.. metadata modelled using VoID ←
09:08:41 <PhilA> .. HTML view generated dynamically
.. HTML view generated dynamically ←
09:09:19 <PhilA> .. Basque country is similar but is focussed on raw data. They have some RDF links but they're static files to describe the data sets
.. Basque country is similar but is focussed on raw data. They have some RDF links but they're static files to describe the data sets ←
09:09:30 <PhilA> .. more than 1,000 data sets in raw formats
.. more than 1,000 data sets in raw formats ←
09:09:37 <PhilA> .. useful info for citizens anda industry
.. useful info for citizens anda industry ←
09:10:05 <PhilA> .. translation memories (Euskara -> Espanol etc.)
.. translation memories (Euskara -> Espanol etc.) ←
09:10:18 <PhilA> .. Catalonia is a new one
.. Catalonia is a new one ←
09:10:33 <PhilA> .. this will be similar to Basque country initiative
.. this will be similar to Basque country initiative ←
09:10:42 <PhilA> .. most data will be in raw formats (CSV, XML etc.)
.. most data will be in raw formats (CSV, XML etc.) ←
09:10:47 <PhilA> .. they will provide some info in RDf
.. they will provide some info in RDf ←
09:11:01 <PhilA> .. as well as RDF static files
.. as well as RDF static files ←
09:11:15 <PhilA> .. we're also creating a catalogue using DCAT
.. we're also creating a catalogue using DCAT ←
09:11:33 <PhilA> .. See http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat
.. See http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat ←
09:11:41 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
rrsagent, draft minutes ←
09:11:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA ←
09:11:44 <FabGandon> S*QL plugin for Cytoscape presentation here https://connect.umms.med.umich.edu/p79605689/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal
Fabien Gandon: S*QL plugin for Cytoscape presentation here https://connect.umms.med.umich.edu/p79605689/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal ←
09:12:12 <PhilA> Martin: they will present > 26K vCards in RDF, describing public centres, using linked data approach
Martin Alvarez: they will present > 26K vCards in RDF, describing public centres, using linked data approach ←
09:12:59 <PhilA> .. as well as the regional governmetns we also have Zaragossa, Gijon and Barcelona as cities in the project
.. as well as the regional governmetns we also have Zaragossa, Gijon and Barcelona as cities in the project ←
09:13:04 <PhilA> .. hope to have more info next month
.. hope to have more info next month ←
09:13:18 <PhilA> s/Zaragossa/Saragossa/
s/Zaragossa/Saragossa/ ←
09:13:38 <PhilA> .. Saragoss will be using linked data. Should be first city to adopt this
.. Saragoss will be using linked data. Should be first city to adopt this ←
09:13:44 <PhilA> .. they're also using DCAT
.. they're also using DCAT ←
09:14:06 <PhilA> .. Gijon is a simple project
.. Gijon is a simple project ←
09:14:26 <PhilA> .. adapting a CMS to provide RDF content representations in parallel byt adding RDFa to pages
.. adapting a CMS to provide RDF content representations in parallel byt adding RDFa to pages ←
09:14:45 <PhilA> .. we conclude that most governmetns are interested in publishing many data sets quickly
.. we conclude that most governmetns are interested in publishing many data sets quickly ←
09:14:54 <PhilA> .. they want to release the data 'now'
.. they want to release the data 'now' ←
09:15:00 <PhilA> .. they want good headlines
.. they want good headlines ←
09:15:18 <PhilA> .. they are neutral on idea of linked data
.. they are neutral on idea of linked data ←
09:15:38 <PhilA> .. they 'know' that semantic modelling is hard and they don't want to spend more time and money on it
.. they 'know' that semantic modelling is hard and they don't want to spend more time and money on it ←
09:15:48 <PhilA> .. for us it's easy to create examples. It's not so easy for the developers
.. for us it's easy to create examples. It's not so easy for the developers ←
09:15:58 <PhilA> .. maybe we need more examples like the Linked data API to help
.. maybe we need more examples like the Linked data API to help ←
09:16:15 <PhilA> .. this would help to help to foster the use of the linked data info
.. this would help to help to foster the use of the linked data info ←
09:17:05 <PhilA> Jeni: It is the case that making data useable and reusable is hard. Linked data is no harder. It's making the data clean that's hard.
Jeni Tennison: It is the case that making data useable and reusable is hard. Linked data is no harder. It's making the data clean that's hard. ←
09:17:19 <sandro> jeni: Making data reusable is hard (not semantics, per se)
Jeni Tennison: Making data reusable is hard (not semantics, per se) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:17:33 <karen> q+
Karen Myers: q+ ←
09:17:33 <PhilA> Martin: we are trying to convince them using these examples. we gather their spreadsheets and show the linked data examples
Martin Alvarez: we are trying to convince them using these examples. we gather their spreadsheets and show the linked data examples ←
09:18:13 <PhilA> ack kar
ack kar ←
09:18:28 <martin> Example of linked data representation http://datos.fundacionctic.org/sandbox/ineasturias/viviendas.do
Martin Alvarez: Example of linked data representation http://datos.fundacionctic.org/sandbox/ineasturias/viviendas.do ←
09:18:31 <PhilA> Karen: Can you say a little more about the time and money. What levels of government are you working with?
Karen Myers: Can you say a little more about the time and money. What levels of government are you working with? ←
09:19:12 <PhilA> Martin: The best example is Catalonia. They called us 15 days ago and said they wanted to have an open data site within a month. Can you help?
Martin Alvarez: The best example is Catalonia. They called us 15 days ago and said they wanted to have an open data site within a month. Can you help? ←
09:19:20 <PhilA> .. speed was major concern
.. speed was major concern ←
09:19:33 <PhilA> .. get the data we have out there
.. get the data we have out there ←
09:20:09 <PhilA> .. they are convinced that linked data is a good solution, they want to follow it, but they prefer spending their resources in developing open data site, specifying the licence
.. they are convinced that linked data is a good solution, they want to follow it, but they prefer spending their resources in developing open data site, specifying the licence ←
09:20:17 <PhilA> .. LD comes later?
.. LD comes later? ←
09:20:22 <PhilA> Karen: So who called you?
Karen Myers: So who called you? ←
09:20:53 <PhilA> Martin: Not an IT person. More close to the citizenry
Martin Alvarez: Not an IT person. More close to the citizenry ←
09:21:04 <PhilA> .. not sure of actual department
.. not sure of actual department ←
09:21:17 <PhilA> .. some are closer to the IT departments
.. some are closer to the IT departments ←
09:21:23 <PhilA> Sandro: What was their motivation
Sandro Hawke: What was their motivation ←
09:21:32 <PhilA> Martin: They know about linked data because we told them about it
Martin Alvarez: They know about linked data because we told them about it ←
09:21:46 <PhilA> .. most of them haven't heard about LD before
.. most of them haven't heard about LD before ←
09:22:05 <PhilA> .. they know open data initiatives, not linked data
.. they know open data initiatives, not linked data ←
09:22:14 <PhilA> ..we managed to convince them ;-)
..we managed to convince them ;-) ←
09:22:39 <PhilA> Sandro: Any other questions?
Sandro Hawke: Any other questions? ←
09:22:46 <PhilA> .. then we'll take our break now
.. then we'll take our break now ←
09:23:01 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
rrsagent, draft minutes ←
09:23:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA ←
09:23:36 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/TPAC_2010
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/TPAC_2010 ←
09:58:43 <FabGandon> Datalift: http://datalift.org
(No events recorded for 35 minutes)
Fabien Gandon: Datalift: http://datalift.org ←
10:06:03 <sandro> topic: Fabien Gandon on France's DataLift Project
(No events recorded for 7 minutes)
<sandro> scribe: sandro
(Scribe set to Sandro Hawke)
10:06:53 <sandro> fabien: I'm not speaking for all of France! This is just one accepted project. Accpted in june, kickoff was at end of September.
Fabien Gandon: I'm not speaking for all of France! This is just one accepted project. Accpted in june, kickoff was at end of September. ←
10:07:11 <sandro> ... Not a lot to show yet, but now is a good time to give us feedback.
... Not a lot to show yet, but now is a good time to give us feedback. ←
10:07:49 <sandro> ... Last year at ISWC we had a meetup, and discussed the lack of data.gov project in France
... Last year at ISWC we had a meetup, and discussed the lack of data.gov project in France ←
10:08:23 <sandro> ... We considered a prototype in Talis; first question --- where will the data physically be stored? In the UK or France?
... We considered a prototype in Talis; first question --- where will the data physically be stored? In the UK or France? ←
10:08:32 <sandro> ... considered cloud in Europe
... considered cloud in Europe ←
10:08:48 <sandro> ... datalift == lifting from raw data to rdf in France
... datalift == lifting from raw data to rdf in France ←
10:09:31 <sandro> ...Atos Origin will be integrator, building an open source integrated platform. As side effect they'll be ready to offer services
...Atos Origin will be integrator, building an open source integrated platform. As side effect they'll be ready to offer services ←
10:09:50 <sandro> ... Mondeca is a KR firm in Paris, doing industrial knowledge modeling
... Mondeca is a KR firm in Paris, doing industrial knowledge modeling ←
10:10:41 <sandro> ... Academics: INRIA at Grenoble (aligning schemas), Eurocom, Lirmm (the guy from INRIA got promoted there).
... Academics: INRIA at Grenoble (aligning schemas), Eurocom, Lirmm (the guy from INRIA got promoted there). ←
10:10:59 <sandro> ... I'll be using DataLift as a scenario for pushing Named Graphs
... I'll be using DataLift as a scenario for pushing Named Graphs ←
10:11:21 <sandro> ... INSEE has all the national statistics for France, IGN has all the maps
... INSEE has all the national statistics for France, IGN has all the maps ←
10:11:47 <sandro> ... Fing is new generation of tools - use cases and business models
... Fing is new generation of tools - use cases and business models ←
10:12:03 <sandro> ... Phase 1: an easy open end of data, open platform
... Phase 1: an easy open end of data, open platform ←
10:12:28 <sandro> ... not re-inventing wheel. We'll re-use existing solutions if they pass our benchmarks; all dev will be open source.
... not re-inventing wheel. We'll re-use existing solutions if they pass our benchmarks; all dev will be open source. ←
10:12:49 <sandro> ... - Assist the selection of data
... - Assist the selection of data ←
10:13:17 <sandro> ... (every thing must be proven on INSEE and IGN data)
... (every thing must be proven on INSEE and IGN data) ←
10:13:26 <sandro> ... - identify appropriate schemas
... - identify appropriate schemas ←
10:13:39 <PhilA> q+ to ask about licensing/openness of IGN data
Phil Archer: q+ to ask about licensing/openness of IGN data ←
10:14:33 <sandro> ack PhilA
ack PhilA ←
10:14:33 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to ask about licensing/openness of IGN data
Zakim IRC Bot: PhilA, you wanted to ask about licensing/openness of IGN data ←
10:15:11 <sandro> phil: glad to see IGN in there (we have Ordnance Survey, in UK, which does the mapping); OS wants money for some of the data.
Phil Archer: glad to see IGN in there (we have Ordnance Survey, in UK, which does the mapping); OS wants money for some of the data. ←
10:15:59 <sandro> fabien: IGN has to get half their budget from sales, so that is a concern
Fabien Gandon: IGN has to get half their budget from sales, so that is a concern ←
10:16:20 <sandro> roger: RDF only, or OWL too?
Roger Cutler: RDF only, or OWL too? ←
10:16:34 <sandro> fabien: We'll use OWL when the scenario calls for it
Fabien Gandon: We'll use OWL when the scenario calls for it ←
10:17:01 <sandro> fabien: We are concerned about speed of reasoning, so we'll have to strike the balance
Fabien Gandon: We are concerned about speed of reasoning, so we'll have to strike the balance ←
10:17:34 <sandro> sandro: you don't have to do the reasoning
Sandro Hawke: you don't have to do the reasoning ←
10:17:49 <sandro> fabien: it depends on the scenario
Fabien Gandon: it depends on the scenario ←
10:18:16 <sandro> roger: Is this typical in eGov, to do this tradeoff?
Roger Cutler: Is this typical in eGov, to do this tradeoff? ←
10:18:57 <sandro> fabien: Everyone needs to make this kind of tradeoff
Fabien Gandon: Everyone needs to make this kind of tradeoff ←
10:19:06 <sandro> jeni: we're mostly staying away from OWL
Jeni Tennison: we're mostly staying away from OWL ←
10:19:17 <sandro> fabien: if we need some bit of OWL, then we can use it.
Fabien Gandon: if we need some bit of OWL, then we can use it. ←
10:19:36 <sandro> fabien: With Atos, we'll benchmark every solution and see what scales well enough.
Fabien Gandon: With Atos, we'll benchmark every solution and see what scales well enough. ←
10:20:10 <sandro> roger: in HCLS, I saw a very elaborate authentication scheme, that was depending on just being in RDF [[S?]].
Roger Cutler: in HCLS, I saw a very elaborate authentication scheme, that was depending on just being in RDF [[S?]]. ←
10:20:21 <sandro> fabien: I heard of this in Freebase
Fabien Gandon: I heard of this in Freebase ←
10:21:29 <sandro> ... not even using RDFS because it was deemed too expensive.
... not even using RDFS because it was deemed too expensive. ←
10:21:42 <sandro> ... - format conversion & connectors
... - format conversion & connectors ←
10:21:47 <Roger> I believe it was RDFS
Roger Cutler: I believe it was RDFS ←
10:22:00 <sandro> ... (eg csv to rdf)
... (eg csv to rdf) ←
10:22:10 <Roger> The system was called S3. It's pretty interesting.
Roger Cutler: The system was called S3. It's pretty interesting. ←
10:22:46 <sandro> ... - data publication itself (led by Atos)
... - data publication itself (led by Atos) ←
10:22:59 <sandro> ... - interconnecting data
... - interconnecting data ←
10:23:28 <sandro> .. eg URI for Paris connected to other URIs for Paris
.. eg URI for Paris connected to other URIs for Paris ←
10:23:33 <sandro> ... (or re-used)
... (or re-used) ←
10:24:01 <sandro> phil: What about talking to developers about using the data?
Phil Archer: What about talking to developers about using the data? ←
10:24:12 <sandro> fabien: Yes, we should have raised that topic more.
Fabien Gandon: Yes, we should have raised that topic more. ←
10:24:27 <sandro> ... it's one thing to show how to publish data; it's another thing maintain it
... it's one thing to show how to publish data; it's another thing maintain it ←
10:24:31 <Roger> Sorry -- S3DB
Roger Cutler: Sorry -- S3DB ←
10:24:59 <sandro> ... our developers mostly don't speak SPARQL and many don't speak English.
... our developers mostly don't speak SPARQL and many don't speak English. ←
10:25:15 <sandro> ... so a cookbook in English wont be enough
... so a cookbook in English wont be enough ←
10:25:32 <sandro> BANDHOLTZ: (missed question)
Thomas Bandholtz: (missed question) ←
10:25:37 <sandro> fabien: As soon as possible
Fabien Gandon: As soon as possible ←
10:26:15 <sandro> fabien: Other topics: visualize, API for mobile, clouds, legal advice, cookbook
Fabien Gandon: Other topics: visualize, API for mobile, clouds, legal advice, cookbook ←
10:27:16 <sandro> fabien: can you legally protect a URI?
Fabien Gandon: can you legally protect a URI? ←
10:27:32 <sandro> phil: *boom* TimBL exploding on hearing that [imagined]
Phil Archer: *boom* TimBL exploding on hearing that [imagined] ←
10:27:57 <sandro> fabien: R&D challenges:
Fabien Gandon: R&D challenges: ←
10:28:05 <sandro> ... methods and metrics for schema selection
... methods and metrics for schema selection ←
10:28:27 <sandro> ... balance of specific needs & reusability (I think there is a tradeoff between usability and reusability)
... balance of specific needs & reusability (I think there is a tradeoff between usability and reusability) ←
10:28:43 <sandro> ... data conversion & identifiers generation
... data conversion & identifiers generation ←
10:29:03 <sandro> ... automation of dataset interconnection (via Jerome Euzenat)
... automation of dataset interconnection (via Jerome Euzenat) ←
10:29:32 <sandro> ... named graphs [hopefully aligned with RDF 1.1), provenance, licenses and rights
... named graphs [hopefully aligned with RDF 1.1), provenance, licenses and rights ←
10:29:34 <Roger> S3DB Permissioning: http://s3db.org/documentation/installation
Roger Cutler: S3DB Permissioning: http://s3db.org/documentation/installation ←
10:30:33 <sandro> ... First 18 months get platform running by www2012 in this building in Lyon!, then 18 more months.
... First 18 months get platform running by www2012 in this building in Lyon!, then 18 more months. ←
10:30:47 <sandro> ... user's club -- folks who want to use it
... user's club -- folks who want to use it ←
10:31:19 <sandro> ... includes City of Bordeaux
... includes City of Bordeaux ←
10:31:28 <sandro> ... Various Liaisons
... Various Liaisons ←
10:31:56 <sandro> sandro: how much money is the funding?
Sandro Hawke: how much money is the funding? ←
10:32:22 <sandro> fabien: 3 years, about 2-3k per year, some more for leader.
Fabien Gandon: 3 years, about 2-3k per year, some more for leader. ←
10:32:45 <sandro> fabien: may create related sub-projects.
Fabien Gandon: may create related sub-projects. ←
10:33:05 <sandro> fabien: we're trying to disturb the environment to create bubbles. :-)
Fabien Gandon: we're trying to disturb the environment to create bubbles. :-) ←
10:33:32 <sandro> Topic: Linked Environment Data in Germany (Thomas Bandholtz)
10:38:42 <sandro> bandholtz: Open Environment Data in the 90s
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Thomas Bandholtz: Open Environment Data in the 90s ←
10:38:52 <sandro> ... Aarhus Convention 1998
... Aarhus Convention 1998 ←
10:39:06 <sandro> ... European Env. Agency (EEA) until 2002
... European Env. Agency (EEA) until 2002 ←
10:39:25 <sandro> s/until 2002/
s/until 2002/ ←
10:39:57 <sandro> ... Environmental Agencies in Germany
... Environmental Agencies in Germany ←
10:41:12 <sandro> ... (slide 4)
... (slide 4) ←
10:42:09 <sandro> ... INSPIRE based on open geospacial consortium, nor RDF yet
... INSPIRE based on open geospacial consortium, nor RDF yet ←
10:42:21 <sandro> ... access to raw data in OGC feature service
... access to raw data in OGC feature service ←
10:43:26 <sandro> ... many public sector portals about water, soil, etc --- web pages, pdf, csv, xml of web services --- exhausting harmonization process
... many public sector portals about water, soil, etc --- web pages, pdf, csv, xml of web services --- exhausting harmonization process ←
10:44:31 <sandro> ... sub-clouds like Linked Open Drug Data, linked to dbpedia; we probably wont use dbpedia as the central ref point, but it looks like they will map to us.
... sub-clouds like Linked Open Drug Data, linked to dbpedia; we probably wont use dbpedia as the central ref point, but it looks like they will map to us. ←
10:45:03 <sandro> ... (slide 13)
... (slide 13) ←
10:45:57 <sandro> ... (slide 14)
... (slide 14) ←
10:46:51 <sandro> ... GEMET and EUNIS published as Linked Data by EEA
... GEMET and EUNIS published as Linked Data by EEA ←
10:47:41 <sandro> ... (slide 15)
... (slide 15) ←
10:51:05 <sandro> ... (slide 17 has involve rdf vocabs)
... (slide 17 has involve rdf vocabs) ←
10:51:20 <sandro> ... SKOS, SKOS(XL) -- only stable/w3c
... SKOS, SKOS(XL) -- only stable/w3c ←
10:51:24 <sandro> ... Dublin Core
... Dublin Core ←
10:51:27 <sandro> ... geonames
... geonames ←
10:51:36 <sandro> ... linked events ontology, for the chronicle
... linked events ontology, for the chronicle ←
10:51:44 <sandro> ... Darwin Core (for species)
... Darwin Core (for species) ←
10:51:53 <sandro> ... SCOVO
... SCOVO ←
10:52:20 <sandro> fabien: I think there's a commercial version of geonames for more/better/current data
Fabien Gandon: I think there's a commercial version of geonames for more/better/current data ←
10:52:30 <timbl> With a different ontology?
Tim Berners-Lee: With a different ontology? ←
10:53:06 <sandro> bandholtz: German govt has their own data, and the agency that owns the data wants to sell it. There's a free version, but it doesn't include the polygons.
Thomas Bandholtz: German govt has their own data, and the agency that owns the data wants to sell it. There's a free version, but it doesn't include the polygons. ←
10:53:14 <timbl> q+ to OSM
Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to OSM ←
10:53:30 <sandro> bandholtz: We us geograph names; we don't use maps; this river flows through these cities, one by one.
Thomas Bandholtz: We us geograph names; we don't use maps; this river flows through these cities, one by one. ←
10:53:59 <sandro> bandholtz: sensor web, many developments to come
Thomas Bandholtz: sensor web, many developments to come ←
10:54:19 <sandro> bandholtz: Darwin Core seemed to like the version I did of their work using SKOS.
Thomas Bandholtz: Darwin Core seemed to like the version I did of their work using SKOS. ←
10:54:56 <sandro> timbl: Have you looked at Open Street Map as a source of geospacial?
Tim Berners-Lee: Have you looked at Open Street Map as a source of geospacial? ←
10:55:09 <sandro> timbl: linkedgeodata.org is a LD mirror of it.
Tim Berners-Lee: linkedgeodata.org is a LD mirror of it. ←
10:55:15 <sandro> bandholtz: I'll take a look at that.
Thomas Bandholtz: I'll take a look at that. ←
10:55:36 <sandro> timbl: I'm told open streetmap is a better source of data than geonames
Tim Berners-Lee: I'm told open streetmap is a better source of data than geonames ←
10:56:17 <sandro> bandholtz: We use SCOVO or env. specimen bank, and some extensions. SDMX data came along.
Thomas Bandholtz: We use SCOVO or env. specimen bank, and some extensions. SDMX data came along. ←
10:56:54 <sandro> Jeni: We've looked at using SDMX -- just using the datacube part looks good, as a midpoint between SCOVO and SDMX.
Jeni Tennison: We've looked at using SDMX -- just using the datacube part looks good, as a midpoint between SCOVO and SDMX. ←
10:57:05 <sandro> bandholtz: We used the specialized subproperties of dimensin
Thomas Bandholtz: We used the specialized subproperties of dimensin ←
10:57:09 <sandro> jeni: Yes
Jeni Tennison: Yes ←
10:58:00 <sandro> bandholtz: In skos-xl, class literals, so you can link labels.
Thomas Bandholtz: In skos-xl, class literals, so you can link labels. ←
10:58:24 <sandro> bandholtz: inflectional forms of one word, extended properties of label class.
Thomas Bandholtz: inflectional forms of one word, extended properties of label class. ←
10:58:29 <timbl> For an RDF mapping see LinkedGeoData.org http://linkedgeodata.org/About
Tim Berners-Lee: For an RDF mapping see LinkedGeoData.org http://linkedgeodata.org/About ←
10:58:38 <sandro> bandholtz: you could talk about this for years, we never came to an end.
Thomas Bandholtz: you could talk about this for years, we never came to an end. ←
10:58:55 <sandro> bandholtz: (slide 18)
Thomas Bandholtz: (slide 18) ←
10:59:26 <sandro> bandholtz: SPARQL end points -- can easily give accidental Denial of Service attack. :-)
Thomas Bandholtz: SPARQL end points -- can easily give accidental Denial of Service attack. :-) ←
10:59:57 <sandro> bandholtz: but providing SPARQL would be nice.
Thomas Bandholtz: but providing SPARQL would be nice. ←
11:00:14 <sandro> bandholtz: authentication and access control would be good.
Thomas Bandholtz: authentication and access control would be good. ←
11:00:17 <timbl> (or a default limit =1000 for non-authenticated users)
Tim Berners-Lee: (or a default limit =1000 for non-authenticated users) ←
11:01:07 <sandro> sandro: 4store includes a built-in resource limit, but default
Sandro Hawke: 4store includes a built-in resource limit, but default ←
11:01:32 <sandro> fabien: we built in a default limit, although that can confuse users who dont know about it.
Fabien Gandon: we built in a default limit, although that can confuse users who dont know about it. ←
11:01:46 <sandro> bandholtz: This is good advice
Thomas Bandholtz: This is good advice ←
11:02:53 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
RRSAgent, pointer? ←
11:02:53 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-irc#T11-02-53
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-irc#T11-02-53 ←
11:03:26 <sandro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
RRSAgent, draft minutes ←
11:03:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html sandro
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html sandro ←
13:09:22 <sandro> topic: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items
(No events recorded for 125 minutes)
<sandro> scribe: jeni
(Scribe set to Jeni Tennison)
13:10:05 <JeniT> sandro: using same model as RDF Core Work Items list
Sandro Hawke: using same model as RDF Core Work Items list ←
13:10:28 <PhilA> Sandro: inspiration for methodology here is the RDF Core http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/RDF_Core_Work_Items
Sandro Hawke: inspiration for methodology here is the RDF Core http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/RDF_Core_Work_Items [ Scribe Assist by Phil Archer ] ←
13:10:46 <JeniT> sandro: four categories for the work items
Sandro Hawke: four categories for the work items ←
13:10:57 <JeniT> sandro: 1. helping deployment happen
Sandro Hawke: 1. helping deployment happen ←
13:11:11 <JeniT> sandro: 2. liaison items such as provenance & named graphs
Sandro Hawke: 2. liaison items such as provenance & named graphs ←
13:11:30 <JeniT> sandro: 3. vocabulary items
Sandro Hawke: 3. vocabulary items ←
13:11:54 <JeniT> sandro: 4. other technical development work items such as design patterns for URIs
Sandro Hawke: 4. other technical development work items such as design patterns for URIs ←
13:12:22 <JeniT> sandro: promised charter by end of January
Sandro Hawke: promised charter by end of January ←
13:12:31 <JeniT> sandro: would mean start in April, running for two years
Sandro Hawke: would mean start in April, running for two years ←
13:12:55 <JeniT> sandro: expect F2F meetings to be useful but hard for people to travel, so may try split F2F meetings
Sandro Hawke: expect F2F meetings to be useful but hard for people to travel, so may try split F2F meetings ←
13:13:30 <JeniT> ... video conferencing between two places
... video conferencing between two places ←
13:13:57 <JeniT> ... to specific work items:
... to specific work items: ←
13:14:07 <JeniT> ... 2.1 Procurement Definitions
... 2.1 Procurement Definitions ←
13:14:17 <JeniT> ... @johnlsheridan mentioned that this is an issue
... @johnlsheridan mentioned that this is an issue ←
13:14:58 <JeniT> ... having standardised definitions of terms/products to include this in ITTs etc
... having standardised definitions of terms/products to include this in ITTs etc ←
13:15:47 <JeniT> PhilA: something that is very important for government procurement
Phil Archer: something that is very important for government procurement ←
13:16:15 <JeniT> ... similar to WCAG guidelines, governments can point to them and say 'you must produce according to these standards'
... similar to WCAG guidelines, governments can point to them and say 'you must produce according to these standards' ←
13:16:57 <JeniT> FabGandon: would this include success stories?
Fabien Gandon: would this include success stories? ←
13:17:02 <JeniT> ... real scenarios?
... real scenarios? ←
13:17:13 <JeniT> Sandro: not in this piece
Sandro Hawke: not in this piece ←
13:17:22 <JeniT> Sandro: beautiful license out of UK
Sandro Hawke: beautiful license out of UK ←
13:17:35 <JeniT> ... could be understood as a human
... could be understood as a human ←
13:17:44 <JeniT> ... is there something we can do internationally?
... is there something we can do internationally? ←
13:17:53 <JeniT> ... having a list of licenses used in different countries?
... having a list of licenses used in different countries? ←
13:18:03 <JeniT> FabGandon: I've been using double licensing
Fabien Gandon: I've been using double licensing ←
13:18:38 <JeniT> ... RDFa/GRDDL profile was licensed LGPL and a french license
... RDFa/GRDDL profile was licensed LGPL and a french license ←
13:19:10 <JeniT> Sandro: yesterday Daniel talking about getting bicycle accident data
Sandro Hawke: yesterday Daniel talking about getting bicycle accident data ←
13:19:18 <JeniT> ... had to sign a paper license
... had to sign a paper license ←
13:19:31 <JeniT> ... included things to say that he had to keep his application up to date
... included things to say that he had to keep his application up to date ←
13:19:54 <sandro> vocab for describing licenses
Sandro Hawke: vocab for describing licenses ←
13:20:24 <sandro> sandro: let me query for datasources I;m allowed to use for my app
Sandro Hawke: let me query for datasources I;m allowed to use for my app [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:20:45 <JeniT> FabGandon: something to indicate where licenses are roughly equivalent
Fabien Gandon: something to indicate where licenses are roughly equivalent ←
13:21:44 <sandro> jeni: maybe some recommendations about what makes a good license for gov data --- allowing reuse
Jeni Tennison: maybe some recommendations about what makes a good license for gov data --- allowing reuse [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:22:08 <sandro> jeni: guidance for licenses which enable the right kind of use
Jeni Tennison: guidance for licenses which enable the right kind of use [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:22:27 <JeniT> Sandro: 5-10 page note maybe?
Sandro Hawke: 5-10 page note maybe? ←
13:22:47 <JeniT> Sandro: is this W3C says this or just the working group says this?
Sandro Hawke: is this W3C says this or just the working group says this? ←
13:23:01 <JeniT> PhilA: be hard to have a recommendation for licenses
Phil Archer: be hard to have a recommendation for licenses ←
13:23:14 <JeniT> ... but a recommendation carries more weight
... but a recommendation carries more weight ←
13:23:48 <JeniT> ... how would you include two independent implementations?
... how would you include two independent implementations? ←
13:23:58 <JeniT> Sandro: two governments that follow the practices
Sandro Hawke: two governments that follow the practices ←
13:24:40 <JeniT> ... might make sense to have it as one of several points within a recommendation
... might make sense to have it as one of several points within a recommendation ←
13:24:57 <JeniT> ... need the WG to work out what granularity of documents they want
... need the WG to work out what granularity of documents they want ←
13:25:03 <JeniT> Sandro: 2.3 Community Survey
Sandro Hawke: 2.3 Community Survey ←
13:25:14 <JeniT> ... self-sustaining database of vendors
... self-sustaining database of vendors ←
13:25:25 <JeniT> PhilA: would this include apps that use the data?
Phil Archer: would this include apps that use the data? ←
13:25:38 <JeniT> Sandro: wasn't thinking so but data consuming systems would be good
Sandro Hawke: wasn't thinking so but data consuming systems would be good ←
13:25:47 <JeniT> ... the hardest part is to make it self-sustaining
... the hardest part is to make it self-sustaining ←
13:26:11 <JeniT> FabGandon: only example that comes to mind is Semantic Web Tool Wiki page
Fabien Gandon: only example that comes to mind is Semantic Web Tool Wiki page ←
13:26:19 <JeniT> ... but you're talking about a real database
... but you're talking about a real database ←
13:26:31 <JeniT> Sandro: it could be a wiki page, but there are some people who aren't happy with that
Sandro Hawke: it could be a wiki page, but there are some people who aren't happy with that ←
13:26:39 <JeniT> ... would give WG freedom to decide how to do it
... would give WG freedom to decide how to do it ←
13:27:38 <JeniT> PhilA: why do you care that this gets done?
Phil Archer: why do you care that this gets done? ←
13:27:39 <sandro> sandro: it's more important that this is done than that ie be a demo.
Sandro Hawke: it's more important that this is done than that ie be a demo. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:28:00 <JeniT> PhilA: about the whole government linked data thing
Phil Archer: about the whole government linked data thing ←
13:28:12 <JeniT> Sandro: got a very enthusiastic yes from the AC
Sandro Hawke: got a very enthusiastic yes from the AC ←
13:28:38 <JeniT> PhilA: building community is very important
Phil Archer: building community is very important ←
13:28:42 <JeniT> ... how far does it go?
... how far does it go? ←
13:28:51 <JeniT> ... it's hard to keep it coherent and up to date
... it's hard to keep it coherent and up to date ←
13:29:01 <JeniT> ... high hurdle for WGs
... high hurdle for WGs ←
13:29:06 <JeniT> Sandro: these lists tend to atrophy
Sandro Hawke: these lists tend to atrophy ←
13:29:23 <JeniT> FabGandon: only successful example is this wiki page, because it survived the group that started it
Fabien Gandon: only successful example is this wiki page, because it survived the group that started it ←
13:29:43 <JeniT> Sandro: even if it doesn't survive the group, the list working for a year or two would be very useful
Sandro Hawke: even if it doesn't survive the group, the list working for a year or two would be very useful ←
13:29:49 <JeniT> PhilA: certainly as the group is going
Phil Archer: certainly as the group is going ←
13:30:10 <sandro> jeni: make it be a resource for the WG as it's runnig.
Jeni Tennison: make it be a resource for the WG as it's runnig. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:30:26 <JeniT> Sandro: would hope that it could aim to be potentially self-sustaining
Sandro Hawke: would hope that it could aim to be potentially self-sustaining ←
13:31:05 <sandro> jeni: It should be a success just to have it run during the live of the wg.
Jeni Tennison: It should be a success just to have it run during the live of the wg. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:31:15 <JeniT> PhilA: would hope that at the end someone would want to pick it up and continue with it, but it would not be a failure of the WG if that didn't happen
Phil Archer: would hope that at the end someone would want to pick it up and continue with it, but it would not be a failure of the WG if that didn't happen ←
13:31:28 <JeniT> Sandro: maybe the mediawiki solution is good enough in that case
Sandro Hawke: maybe the mediawiki solution is good enough in that case ←
13:31:42 <JeniT> ... fairly dogfoody, even if RDF is not very linked data
... fairly dogfoody, even if RDF is not very linked data ←
13:32:19 <JeniT> ... helps us make sure that we know who to ping to try to get public review of our specs
... helps us make sure that we know who to ping to try to get public review of our specs ←
13:32:28 <JeniT> ... and is useful to the communities
... and is useful to the communities ←
13:32:36 <JeniT> Sandro: 2.4 Cookbook or Storybook
Sandro Hawke: 2.4 Cookbook or Storybook ←
13:32:48 <JeniT> FabGandon: yes, scenarios and success stories
Fabien Gandon: yes, scenarios and success stories ←
13:33:09 <JeniT> ... when I talk to people in public sector, as a researcher they think everything I say is science fiction
... when I talk to people in public sector, as a researcher they think everything I say is science fiction ←
13:33:22 <JeniT> ... I want a place to point them
... I want a place to point them ←
13:33:34 <JeniT> PhilA: would that be the equivalent of a use cases document?
Phil Archer: would that be the equivalent of a use cases document? ←
13:33:50 <JeniT> FabGandon: use cases aren't always implemented, scenarios are things that are already deployed
Fabien Gandon: use cases aren't always implemented, scenarios are things that are already deployed ←
13:33:59 <JeniT> ... using UK a lot for this
... using UK a lot for this ←
13:34:13 <JeniT> PhilA: but this would be early input to the group
Phil Archer: but this would be early input to the group ←
13:34:35 <JeniT> FabGandon: making them visible in a document gives me something to point to
Fabien Gandon: making them visible in a document gives me something to point to ←
13:34:45 <JeniT> ... there are best practices
... there are best practices ←
13:34:50 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
Phil Archer: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
13:34:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA ←
13:35:03 <JeniT> Sandro: use cases tend to abstract from scenarios
Sandro Hawke: use cases tend to abstract from scenarios ←
13:35:20 <JeniT> FabGandon: GRDDL use cases were a fiction
Fabien Gandon: GRDDL use cases were a fiction ←
13:35:33 <JeniT> PhilA: I'm expecting WG to come up with best practices and recommendations
Phil Archer: I'm expecting WG to come up with best practices and recommendations ←
13:35:43 <JeniT> ... need to have scenarios as input for that
... need to have scenarios as input for that ←
13:35:50 <JeniT> ... same function as use cases
... same function as use cases ←
13:36:04 <JeniT> Sandro: a product of WG is to have gathered a collection
Sandro Hawke: a product of WG is to have gathered a collection ←
13:36:17 <JeniT> ... could be written by people associated with scenarios, if we can get them to do it
... could be written by people associated with scenarios, if we can get them to do it ←
13:36:33 <JeniT> ... not sure about stories about failures
... not sure about stories about failures ←
13:36:57 <JeniT> PhilA: having stories about failure are really useful
Phil Archer: having stories about failure are really useful ←
13:37:12 <JeniT> ... being able to talk about failures in a constructive way
... being able to talk about failures in a constructive way ←
13:37:20 <JeniT> Sandro: may be hard to do that in published writing
Sandro Hawke: may be hard to do that in published writing ←
13:37:24 <JeniT> ... but worth a try
... but worth a try ←
13:37:32 <JeniT> Sandro: 3.1 Provenance
Sandro Hawke: 3.1 Provenance ←
13:37:43 <JeniT> ... been incubator running for a year
... been incubator running for a year ←
13:37:48 <JeniT> ... final year is going to recommend WG
... final year is going to recommend WG ←
13:37:54 <JeniT> ... suspect that there will be one in the next 6 months
... suspect that there will be one in the next 6 months ←
13:38:04 <JeniT> ... this group interacting with that group would be useful
... this group interacting with that group would be useful ←
13:38:12 <JeniT> Sandro: 3.2 Named Graphs
Sandro Hawke: 3.2 Named Graphs ←
13:38:18 <JeniT> ... similarly, this interacts with provenance
... similarly, this interacts with provenance ←
13:38:28 <JeniT> Sandro: 3.3 POI WG
Sandro Hawke: 3.3 POI WG ←
13:38:39 <JeniT> ... not sure how much government geography is addressed by this
... not sure how much government geography is addressed by this ←
13:38:48 <JeniT> ... think it's just going to be lat/long + polygons
... think it's just going to be lat/long + polygons ←
13:38:57 <JeniT> PhilA: I ran workshop that led to POI WG
Phil Archer: I ran workshop that led to POI WG ←
13:39:10 <JeniT> ... going to be struggle to get them to acknowledge linked data exists
... going to be struggle to get them to acknowledge linked data exists ←
13:39:27 <JeniT> ... one guy from DERI trying to get them to think about it
... one guy from DERI trying to get them to think about it ←
13:39:38 <JeniT> ... augmented reality main group
... augmented reality main group ←
13:39:51 <JeniT> ... will need active steering to ensure liaison
... will need active steering to ensure liaison ←
13:39:58 <JeniT> Sandro: need a person in both groups
Sandro Hawke: need a person in both groups ←
13:40:08 <JeniT> ... I was being optimistic about RDF vocabulary
... I was being optimistic about RDF vocabulary ←
13:40:14 <JeniT> PhilA: yes, very
Phil Archer: yes, very ←
13:40:31 <JeniT> ... as interested in moving objects as static
... as interested in moving objects as static ←
13:40:43 <JeniT> ... and motion in relative direction
... and motion in relative direction ←
13:41:09 <JeniT> Sandro: in worst case, someone could take formal model and map to RDF
Sandro Hawke: in worst case, someone could take formal model and map to RDF ←
13:41:34 <JeniT> Sandro: probably other liaisons I've forgotten
Sandro Hawke: probably other liaisons I've forgotten ←
13:41:38 <JeniT> ... SPARQL?
... SPARQL? ←
13:41:51 <JeniT> ... don't know exactly what dependency looks like
... don't know exactly what dependency looks like ←
13:42:07 <JeniT> ... are there any outside of W3C?
... are there any outside of W3C? ←
13:42:16 <JeniT> ... organisations doing some close to GLD?
... organisations doing some close to GLD? ←
13:42:47 <JeniT> PhilA: need people from data.gov from different countries
Phil Archer: need people from data.gov from different countries ←
13:42:54 <JeniT> Sandro: hoping that they get involved in the working group
Sandro Hawke: hoping that they get involved in the working group ←
13:43:01 <JeniT> ... thinking about peer organisations
... thinking about peer organisations ←
13:43:16 <JeniT> ... normally have standards, vendors & other standards bodies
... normally have standards, vendors & other standards bodies ←
13:43:43 <JeniT> FabGandon: wonder if relying on local offices to synchronise locally
Fabien Gandon: wonder if relying on local offices to synchronise locally ←
13:43:54 <JeniT> ... W3C office in Paris will be good point of synchronisation
... W3C office in Paris will be good point of synchronisation ←
13:44:11 <JeniT> ... of communicating, diffusing, making sure right people are aware
... of communicating, diffusing, making sure right people are aware ←
13:44:17 <JeniT> PhilA: not just national governments
Phil Archer: not just national governments ←
13:44:30 <JeniT> ... colleague talking to Helsinki, Berlin, city authorities
... colleague talking to Helsinki, Berlin, city authorities ←
13:44:37 <JeniT> ... not just national governments, but local ones as well
... not just national governments, but local ones as well ←
13:45:34 <JeniT> Sandro: check with OASIS and OMG and usual suspects
Sandro Hawke: check with OASIS and OMG and usual suspects ←
13:45:51 <JeniT> Thomas: INSPIRE and OGC?
Thomas Bandholtz: INSPIRE and OGC? ←
13:46:07 <JeniT> ... they are doing something not so different, but with URNs and XML
... they are doing something not so different, but with URNs and XML ←
13:46:30 <JeniT> ... someone would have to write a technical spec for RDF
... someone would have to write a technical spec for RDF ←
13:46:39 <JeniT> Sandro: is there funding available if someone has the skills to do it?
Sandro Hawke: is there funding available if someone has the skills to do it? ←
13:46:55 <JeniT> Thomas: it's a EU directive, and each government has people who are working on it
Thomas Bandholtz: it's a EU directive, and each government has people who are working on it ←
13:47:07 <JeniT> Sandro: seems like the kind of thing that a university might do
Sandro Hawke: seems like the kind of thing that a university might do ←
13:48:02 <JeniT> Sandro: is it a good model that anyone else might be interested in?
Sandro Hawke: is it a good model that anyone else might be interested in? ←
13:48:09 <PhilA> Jeni: Stuart Williams is working with the UK end of INSPIRE to do some mapping of the object modles into RDF
Jeni Tennison: Stuart Williams is working with the UK end of INSPIRE to do some mapping of the object modles into RDF [ Scribe Assist by Phil Archer ] ←
13:48:17 <JeniT> Thomas: harmonising on what each member should provide on each topic
Thomas Bandholtz: harmonising on what each member should provide on each topic ←
13:48:22 <JeniT> ... they have a dozen themes
... they have a dozen themes ←
13:48:32 <JeniT> ... mandatory data items on each theme
... mandatory data items on each theme ←
13:48:39 <PhilA> Stuart Williams, formerly of HP, TAG member, now at Epimorphics, Bristol-based Sem Web consultancy
Phil Archer: Stuart Williams, formerly of HP, TAG member, now at Epimorphics, Bristol-based Sem Web consultancy ←
13:48:43 <JeniT> ... we shouldn't care about domain-specific things
... we shouldn't care about domain-specific things ←
13:49:01 <JeniT> ... we could get a huge mass of more data if we mapped into RDF
... we could get a huge mass of more data if we mapped into RDF ←
13:49:08 <JeniT> ... get a lot of benefits from organisational power of INSPIRE
... get a lot of benefits from organisational power of INSPIRE ←
13:49:17 <JeniT> PhilA: the one bit of data that sticks in my head
Phil Archer: the one bit of data that sticks in my head ←
13:49:25 <JeniT> ... is target for implementation is 2018
... is target for implementation is 2018 ←
13:49:31 <JeniT> ... so don't want to depend on INSPIRE
... so don't want to depend on INSPIRE ←
13:49:36 <JeniT> ... this group would inspire INSPIRE
... this group would inspire INSPIRE ←
13:49:49 <JeniT> ... W3C is known to be slow, but we're faster than that!
... W3C is known to be slow, but we're faster than that! ←
13:50:01 <sandro> OGC
Sandro Hawke: OGC ←
13:50:01 <JeniT> Thomas: there are many agencies publishing data using OGC services
Thomas Bandholtz: there are many agencies publishing data using OGC services ←
13:50:21 <JeniT> ... maybe better to talk about SDI
... maybe better to talk about SDI ←
13:50:30 <sandro> spacial data infrastructure
Sandro Hawke: spacial data infrastructure ←
13:50:41 <JeniT> ... they have a G (Global) SDI conference every year
... they have a G (Global) SDI conference every year ←
13:50:50 <JeniT> ... have questions about how to publish this in RDF
... have questions about how to publish this in RDF ←
13:50:56 <JeniT> ... all fragmentary contributions
... all fragmentary contributions ←
13:51:04 <JeniT> ... would be a different level
... would be a different level ←
13:51:12 <JeniT> ... they have a catalogue service web, like DCAT
... they have a catalogue service web, like DCAT ←
13:51:23 <JeniT> Sandro: is OGC a reasonable way to interact with them?
Sandro Hawke: is OGC a reasonable way to interact with them? ←
13:51:27 <JeniT> ... they are W3C members
... they are W3C members ←
13:51:38 <JeniT> ... we might be able to get them to participate in a liaison capacity
... we might be able to get them to participate in a liaison capacity ←
13:52:00 <JeniT> Thomas: geoSPARQL is one of these topics
Thomas Bandholtz: geoSPARQL is one of these topics ←
13:52:09 <JeniT> ... encoding of sensor observation services in RDF
... encoding of sensor observation services in RDF ←
13:52:15 <JeniT> ... these are ongoing activities
... these are ongoing activities ←
13:52:22 <JeniT> ... not specific for government, but INSPIRE is
... not specific for government, but INSPIRE is ←
13:52:39 <JeniT> Sandro: every nation has a lot of legal issues around geographical information
Sandro Hawke: every nation has a lot of legal issues around geographical information ←
13:52:52 <JeniT> Thomas: this is one of the things, that you describe the data that you will sell
Thomas Bandholtz: this is one of the things, that you describe the data that you will sell ←
13:53:04 <JeniT> ... I used to talk about linked data
... I used to talk about linked data ←
13:53:26 <JeniT> ... not talking about LOD any more, because we shouldn't exclude non-open data
... not talking about LOD any more, because we shouldn't exclude non-open data ←
13:53:47 <JeniT> FabGandon: And accessing the data from my company I have access to things on the intranet
Fabien Gandon: And accessing the data from my company I have access to things on the intranet ←
13:54:07 <JeniT> Sandro: these are good pointers, but I'm not sure what it makes sure to do in this charter
Sandro Hawke: these are good pointers, but I'm not sure what it makes sure to do in this charter ←
13:54:17 <JeniT> ... my thought was that POI would take care of it, but I guess not
... my thought was that POI would take care of it, but I guess not ←
13:55:31 <JeniT> JeniT: feels like a rat hole
Jeni Tennison: feels like a rat hole ←
13:55:46 <JeniT> Sandro: we can make it in scope, out of scope, or get the WG to decide
Sandro Hawke: we can make it in scope, out of scope, or get the WG to decide ←
13:56:11 <JeniT> FabGandon: think it's difficult to rule out geographic data in a government data charter
Fabien Gandon: think it's difficult to rule out geographic data in a government data charter ←
13:56:19 <JeniT> ... so many scenarios where you need geographical data
... so many scenarios where you need geographical data ←
13:56:27 <JeniT> PhilA: some liaison would be useful
Phil Archer: some liaison would be useful ←
13:56:57 <JeniT> ... 'we will liaise with POI WG, and be aware of other work going on in this area, but not core duty of GLD WG to codify'
... 'we will liaise with POI WG, and be aware of other work going on in this area, but not core duty of GLD WG to codify' ←
13:57:13 <JeniT> FabGandon: going to be the same with temporal data representation
Fabien Gandon: going to be the same with temporal data representation ←
13:57:29 <JeniT> ... want to say that 'this data is only valid for this financial year'
... want to say that 'this data is only valid for this financial year' ←
13:57:32 <JeniT> ... another rat hole
... another rat hole ←
13:57:40 <sandro> PhilA: "We think this is important, and we'll liaise, but we wont develop a vocab for geo"
Phil Archer: "We think this is important, and we'll liaise, but we wont develop a vocab for geo" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:57:51 <JeniT> ... good part is that you don't have proprietary aspects
... good part is that you don't have proprietary aspects ←
13:58:06 <JeniT> ... again needs liaison with people in time data
... again needs liaison with people in time data ←
13:58:23 <JeniT> PhilA: this is relevant for POI, because important in crisis management
Phil Archer: this is relevant for POI, because important in crisis management ←
13:58:45 <JeniT> FabGandon: we have someone who may be involved in this aspect
Fabien Gandon: we have someone who may be involved in this aspect ←
13:59:23 <JeniT> Sandro: The next two groups were vocabulary and non-vocabulary technical items
Sandro Hawke: The next two groups were vocabulary and non-vocabulary technical items ←
13:59:34 <JeniT> ... I had some idea of doing vocabularies later, but let's proceed in order
... I had some idea of doing vocabularies later, but let's proceed in order ←
14:00:02 <JeniT> ... TimBL at dinner last night said something...
... TimBL at dinner last night said something... ←
14:00:21 <JeniT> ... I had always envisioned that W3C would write the vocabulary, document it and so on
... I had always envisioned that W3C would write the vocabulary, document it and so on ←
14:00:43 <JeniT> ... but TimBL said that if foaf:name is what people should use, we can say in the W3C Recommendation that that's what people should use
... but TimBL said that if foaf:name is what people should use, we can say in the W3C Recommendation that that's what people should use ←
14:00:56 <JeniT> ... but we could set a bar for what we mean for a 3rd party vocabulary
... but we could set a bar for what we mean for a 3rd party vocabulary ←
14:01:02 <JeniT> ... and if FOAF can get over that bar
... and if FOAF can get over that bar ←
14:01:04 <JeniT> ... then that's fine
... then that's fine ←
14:01:11 <JeniT> PhilA: we wanted to use FOAF
Phil Archer: we wanted to use FOAF ←
14:01:26 <JeniT> ... and if DanBrickley goes under a bus, the server goes with him
... and if DanBrickley goes under a bus, the server goes with him ←
14:01:32 <JeniT> ... (this is in POWDER)
... (this is in POWDER) ←
14:01:43 <JeniT> ... got around it by using Dublin Core
... got around it by using Dublin Core ←
14:01:57 <JeniT> ... we had conversations for ages about this, about how FOAF could become more stable
... we had conversations for ages about this, about how FOAF could become more stable ←
14:02:02 <JeniT> ... doesn't have an organisation behind it
... doesn't have an organisation behind it ←
14:02:07 <JeniT> ... could W3C manage it? no
... could W3C manage it? no ←
14:02:29 <sandro> jeni: I think there are some important things here, around check boxes for what vocabs we will trust.
Jeni Tennison: I think there are some important things here, around check boxes for what vocabs we will trust. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:03:06 <sandro> ... lots of stuff around the org behind it, documented policy on change control, ... it would be useful to document these up front. THESE ARE THE THINGS WE EXPECT A GOOD VOCAB TO DO.
Sandro Hawke: ... lots of stuff around the org behind it, documented policy on change control, ... it would be useful to document these up front. THESE ARE THE THINGS WE EXPECT A GOOD VOCAB TO DO. ←
14:03:23 <JeniT> Sandro: going meta, aside from the terms that we recommend...
Sandro Hawke: going meta, aside from the terms that we recommend... ←
14:03:30 <JeniT> ... this is going to be useful for Governments as well
... this is going to be useful for Governments as well ←
14:03:41 <JeniT> ... to help Governments to identify which vocabularies they can use
... to help Governments to identify which vocabularies they can use ←
14:03:56 <JeniT> ... could be GLD or could come from somewhere else
... could be GLD or could come from somewhere else ←
14:04:43 <sandro> jeni; Wider LD cloud might not care so much about stability. Academic projects don't mind so much.
Sandro Hawke: jeni; Wider LD cloud might not care so much about stability. Academic projects don't mind so much. ←
14:04:56 <sandro> fabien: France wont use schemas of the UK.
Fabien Gandon: France wont use schemas of the UK. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:05:07 <JeniT> PhilA: going to be a problem all over
Phil Archer: going to be a problem all over ←
14:05:13 <JeniT> ... W3C isn't designed to manage vocabularies
... W3C isn't designed to manage vocabularies ←
14:05:19 <JeniT> FabGandon: scalability problems as well
Fabien Gandon: scalability problems as well ←
14:05:25 <JeniT> ... only standardise what's domain independent
... only standardise what's domain independent ←
14:05:29 <JeniT> ... can standardise provenance
... can standardise provenance ←
14:05:37 <JeniT> ... cannot standardise biology ontology
... cannot standardise biology ontology ←
14:05:43 <JeniT> ... this changes things a little bit
... this changes things a little bit ←
14:05:58 <JeniT> ... here we're crossing that line a bit
... here we're crossing that line a bit ←
14:06:17 <JeniT> Thomas: we don't have to standardise geographical vocabulary, just specifying serialisation
Thomas Bandholtz: we don't have to standardise geographical vocabulary, just specifying serialisation ←
14:06:34 <JeniT> FabGandon: there could be a well-known XML vocabulary, just provide RDFS version
Fabien Gandon: there could be a well-known XML vocabulary, just provide RDFS version ←
14:06:41 <JeniT> PhilA: I think purls provide the way out of this
Phil Archer: I think purls provide the way out of this ←
14:06:49 <JeniT> ... if it can't be on w3.org
... if it can't be on w3.org ←
14:06:58 <JeniT> Sandro: I wouldn't say it can't be on w3.org
Sandro Hawke: I wouldn't say it can't be on w3.org ←
14:07:05 <JeniT> ... there's the organisation vocabulary
... there's the organisation vocabulary ←
14:07:51 <JeniT> ... @der42 approached TimBL to host it
... @der42 approached TimBL to host it ←
14:08:04 <JeniT> ... there's a maintenance headache that comes with that
... there's a maintenance headache that comes with that ←
14:08:14 <JeniT> ... this is something TimBLs been pushing a long time
... this is something TimBLs been pushing a long time ←
14:08:25 <JeniT> ... I've been pushing this for a long time too
... I've been pushing this for a long time too ←
14:09:12 <JeniT> PhilA: the person to convince is Ted Guild
Phil Archer: the person to convince is Ted Guild ←
14:10:39 <JeniT> Sandro: vocabulary hosting in general is a huge issue for governments
Sandro Hawke: vocabulary hosting in general is a huge issue for governments ←
14:10:48 <JeniT> FabGandon: more important than in any other domain
Fabien Gandon: more important than in any other domain ←
14:11:12 <JeniT> Sandro: I've been advocating that someone like IBM should get into the vocabulary hosting business
Sandro Hawke: I've been advocating that someone like IBM should get into the vocabulary hosting business ←
14:11:27 <JeniT> PhilA: same issue with Talis hosting it: we're a commercial company!
Phil Archer: same issue with Talis hosting it: we're a commercial company! ←
14:11:33 <JeniT> Sandro: so you get what you pay for
Sandro Hawke: so you get what you pay for ←
14:12:19 <JeniT> ... could pay a company to host it for a period of time
... could pay a company to host it for a period of time ←
14:12:30 <JeniT> PhilA: we would host the stuff with a purl pointing to it
Phil Archer: we would host the stuff with a purl pointing to it ←
14:12:47 <JeniT> ... the purl points somewhere else if Talis goes under a bus
... the purl points somewhere else if Talis goes under a bus ←
14:12:53 <JeniT> Sandro: I would say domain name per vocabulary
Sandro Hawke: I would say domain name per vocabulary ←
14:13:01 <JeniT> ... foaf.org rather than xmlns whatever it is
... foaf.org rather than xmlns whatever it is ←
14:13:17 <JeniT> ... that gives the most flexibility
... that gives the most flexibility ←
14:13:28 <JeniT> PhilA: govvocabulary.org/2010 or whatever
Phil Archer: govvocabulary.org/2010 or whatever ←
14:13:39 <JeniT> Sandro: but then you bind together several vocabularies in one organisation
Sandro Hawke: but then you bind together several vocabularies in one organisation ←
14:13:52 <JeniT> ... if they are controlled by different people then you don't want them on the same domain name
... if they are controlled by different people then you don't want them on the same domain name ←
14:14:01 <JeniT> PhilA: it's an issue because of neutrality
Phil Archer: it's an issue because of neutrality ←
14:14:05 <JeniT> ... FOAF is a good example
... FOAF is a good example ←
14:14:19 <JeniT> Sandro: were you serious, Fabien, when you said that France wouldn't use any UK vocabularies?
Sandro Hawke: were you serious, Fabien, when you said that France wouldn't use any UK vocabularies? ←
14:14:29 <JeniT> FabGandon: I haven't checked, I know the reaction about hosting the data
Fabien Gandon: I haven't checked, I know the reaction about hosting the data ←
14:14:50 <JeniT> ... wouldn't be surprised if French objected
... wouldn't be surprised if French objected ←
14:15:02 <JeniT> ... issue with internationalisation as well
... issue with internationalisation as well ←
14:15:16 <JeniT> Sandro: would hope that any vocabulary provider would accept translations
Sandro Hawke: would hope that any vocabulary provider would accept translations ←
14:15:26 <JeniT> PhilA: but who guarantees translation is accurate
Phil Archer: but who guarantees translation is accurate ←
14:15:42 <JeniT> FabGandon: in EU, have whole process of maintaining translation of different documents
Fabien Gandon: in EU, have whole process of maintaining translation of different documents ←
14:16:09 <JeniT> PhilA: if you had a vocabulary that had anything but a .com, .org ending...
Phil Archer: if you had a vocabulary that had anything but a .com, .org ending... ←
14:16:16 <JeniT> ... no way Americans would accept that
... no way Americans would accept that ←
14:16:49 <JeniT> Sandro: end up using .com, .org or .net for the vocabularies
Sandro Hawke: end up using .com, .org or .net for the vocabularies ←
14:17:06 <JeniT> Sandro: 4.1 Metadata for Data Catalogs
Sandro Hawke: 4.1 Metadata for Data Catalogs ←
14:17:14 <JeniT> ... no brainer that we want to move along DCAT in this group
... no brainer that we want to move along DCAT in this group ←
14:17:29 <JeniT> ... had an interest group telecon with @cygri
... had an interest group telecon with @cygri ←
14:17:40 <JeniT> ... wanted to spin off taskforce to do it
... wanted to spin off taskforce to do it ←
14:18:00 <JeniT> ... had large group that quickly dwindled
... had large group that quickly dwindled ←
14:18:11 <JeniT> ... stopped entirely when Semtech came around, and didn't start up again
... stopped entirely when Semtech came around, and didn't start up again ←
14:18:18 <JeniT> ... lots of interest there
... lots of interest there ←
14:18:38 <JeniT> ... big question is does it end up as WG Note, as a Recommendation, as a pointer to something else?
... big question is does it end up as WG Note, as a Recommendation, as a pointer to something else? ←
14:18:49 <JeniT> FabGandon: how specific is it to eGov?
Fabien Gandon: how specific is it to eGov? ←
14:18:59 <JeniT> Sandro: right now taskforce in eGov IG
Sandro Hawke: right now taskforce in eGov IG ←
14:19:23 <JeniT> ... in doing taskforce charter
... in doing taskforce charter ←
14:19:34 <JeniT> ... said clearly applicable beyond government
... said clearly applicable beyond government ←
14:19:42 <JeniT> ... but let's take narrower scope for now
... but let's take narrower scope for now ←
14:20:01 <JeniT> ... can see that it could be broader
... can see that it could be broader ←
14:20:07 <JeniT> FabGandon: it could even be a task of the new RDF WG
Fabien Gandon: it could even be a task of the new RDF WG ←
14:20:14 <JeniT> Sandro: I think it's too late to go there now
Sandro Hawke: I think it's too late to go there now ←
14:20:20 <JeniT> ... or in the provenance WG
... or in the provenance WG ←
14:20:35 <JeniT> ... someone asked what's the difference between provenance and DCAT
... someone asked what's the difference between provenance and DCAT ←
14:20:49 <PhilA> xLooking at http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat
Phil Archer: xLooking at http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat ←
14:21:01 <JeniT> PhilA: one thing that is missing is refresh rate
Phil Archer: one thing that is missing is refresh rate ←
14:21:21 <JeniT> JeniT: think that's part of VoiD
Jeni Tennison: think that's part of VoiD ←
14:21:29 <JeniT> PhilA: ah right
Phil Archer: ah right ←
14:21:37 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary ←
14:21:43 <JeniT> ... Alex Tucker has done RDF dump of CKAN data
... Alex Tucker has done RDF dump of CKAN data ←
14:22:02 <JeniT> Sandro: Wiki page includes use cases, deliverables, minutes and participants: 28 participants
Sandro Hawke: Wiki page includes use cases, deliverables, minutes and participants: 28 participants ←
14:22:12 <JeniT> ... huge amount of interest
... huge amount of interest ←
14:22:29 <JeniT> ... reminded that Thomas was listening
... reminded that Thomas was listening ←
14:22:38 <JeniT> Thomas: got a little bit bored...
Thomas Bandholtz: got a little bit bored... ←
14:22:49 <JeniT> ... did so much work on data catalogs in Germany...
... did so much work on data catalogs in Germany... ←
14:23:01 <JeniT> ... ended up disappointing because no one used it
... ended up disappointing because no one used it ←
14:23:15 <JeniT> ... idea of having one data catalog as an access point is not a priority
... idea of having one data catalog as an access point is not a priority ←
14:23:24 <JeniT> ... in linked data domain discovery is following links
... in linked data domain discovery is following links ←
14:23:30 <JeniT> ... not looking at catalogs
... not looking at catalogs ←
14:23:40 <JeniT> ... it's OK, we need it, but...
... it's OK, we need it, but... ←
14:23:52 <JeniT> Sandro: you don't need 28 people to design a vocabulary
Sandro Hawke: you don't need 28 people to design a vocabulary ←
14:23:59 <JeniT> ... you want 3 people to do the work, and wide review
... you want 3 people to do the work, and wide review ←
14:24:09 <JeniT> ... you don't want big telecons with everyone who cares
... you don't want big telecons with everyone who cares ←
14:24:18 <JeniT> ... in general that's going to be true
... in general that's going to be true ←
14:24:35 <JeniT> ... sometimes there will be issues that you want discussion for, but a lot is design by a small group
... sometimes there will be issues that you want discussion for, but a lot is design by a small group ←
14:24:48 <JeniT> PhilA: I still think in terms of best practice document
Phil Archer: I still think in terms of best practice document ←
14:24:59 <JeniT> ... say 'use DCAT and VoiD to describe your catalog'
... say 'use DCAT and VoiD to describe your catalog' ←
14:25:08 <JeniT> Thomas: how is VoiD involved?
Thomas Bandholtz: how is VoiD involved? ←
14:25:20 <JeniT> Sandro: DCAT can be for non-RDF data, VoiD for RDF data
Sandro Hawke: DCAT can be for non-RDF data, VoiD for RDF data ←
14:26:11 <sandro> jeni: Some vocab (dcat) is about EVERY data set, and then some other vocabs are for certain kinds of data (eg geo about geo data, void about RDF data)
Jeni Tennison: Some vocab (dcat) is about EVERY data set, and then some other vocabs are for certain kinds of data (eg geo about geo data, void about RDF data) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:26:45 <sandro> PhilA: Neither void nor dcat covers refresh rate.
Phil Archer: Neither void nor dcat covers refresh rate. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:27:07 <JeniT> Sandro: I've never heard anyone assess quality or suitability of VoiD
Sandro Hawke: I've never heard anyone assess quality or suitability of VoiD ←
14:27:11 <JeniT> ... only game in town
... only game in town ←
14:27:58 <JeniT> ... if we're going to recommend a vocabulary, in a recommendation
... if we're going to recommend a vocabulary, in a recommendation ←
14:28:05 <JeniT> ... then we need implementation experience
... then we need implementation experience ←
14:28:10 <JeniT> ... which includes going through to consumers
... which includes going through to consumers ←
14:28:19 <JeniT> Thomas: VoiD has been designed without DCAT in mind
Thomas Bandholtz: VoiD has been designed without DCAT in mind ←
14:28:27 <JeniT> ... so didn't care about separation of concerns
... so didn't care about separation of concerns ←
14:28:36 <JeniT> ... I think someone has to make a new version of VoiD, to fit in
... I think someone has to make a new version of VoiD, to fit in ←
14:29:16 <JeniT> Sandro: we could ask @cygri whether he thinks a new version of VoiD is needed
Sandro Hawke: we could ask @cygri whether he thinks a new version of VoiD is needed ←
14:29:27 <JeniT> ... another thing on DCAT is I don't know how it relates to CKAN
... another thing on DCAT is I don't know how it relates to CKAN ←
14:29:40 <JeniT> ... I don't know how happy CKAN were with it
... I don't know how happy CKAN were with it ←
14:30:04 <JeniT> ... another force in play is the Sunlight Foundation in the US
... another force in play is the Sunlight Foundation in the US ←
14:30:18 <JeniT> ... they have done national data catalog that combines Federal, State and Local levels
... they have done national data catalog that combines Federal, State and Local levels ←
14:30:48 <JeniT> JeniT: do you need input about what to put in the charter?
Jeni Tennison: do you need input about what to put in the charter? ←
14:31:01 <JeniT> Sandro: I feel we should say a W3C Recommended vocabulary along the lines of DCAT
Sandro Hawke: I feel we should say a W3C Recommended vocabulary along the lines of DCAT ←
14:31:27 <JeniT> PhilA: so the group would create and maintain the vocabulary
Phil Archer: so the group would create and maintain the vocabulary ←
14:31:48 <JeniT> Sandro: I think DCAT should enable multiple catalogs, for a decentralised system
Sandro Hawke: I think DCAT should enable multiple catalogs, for a decentralised system ←
14:32:15 <JeniT> ... each data source should describe itself using DCAT
... each data source should describe itself using DCAT ←
14:33:49 <JeniT> JeniT: there's the set of terms (Dublin Core + DCAT + VoiD etc) and the namespace for DCAT
Jeni Tennison: there's the set of terms (Dublin Core + DCAT + VoiD etc) and the namespace for DCAT ←
14:34:19 <JeniT> FabGandon: when you look at FOAF, FOAFomatic really helped encourage its use
Fabien Gandon: when you look at FOAF, FOAFomatic really helped encourage its use ←
14:34:36 <JeniT> Sandro: OKFN has a form where they're asking people to fill out questionnaire about their government data
Sandro Hawke: OKFN has a form where they're asking people to fill out questionnaire about their government data ←
14:34:43 <JeniT> ... be nice if it gave back RDF
... be nice if it gave back RDF ←
14:35:14 <JeniT> PhilA: keen to do outreach as well
Phil Archer: keen to do outreach as well ←
14:35:20 <JeniT> ... ideally as part of this working group
... ideally as part of this working group ←
14:35:26 <JeniT> ... important part of the implementation
... important part of the implementation ←
14:35:58 <JeniT> Sandro: OK, add under Procurement Assistance
Sandro Hawke: OK, add under Procurement Assistance ←
14:36:10 <JeniT> BREAK TIME UNTIL 16:00
BREAK TIME UNTIL 16:00 ←
15:05:09 <FabGandon> scribe: FabGandon
(No events recorded for 28 minutes)
(Scribe set to Fabien Gandon)
15:05:50 <FabGandon> resuming on vocabularies.
resuming on vocabularies. ←
15:06:06 <FabGandon> ... JeniT: what are the next stages?
... JeniT: what are the next stages? ←
15:06:54 <FabGandon> Sandro: next stage is identify what can be done within the WG charter/timespan/force
Sandro Hawke: next stage is identify what can be done within the WG charter/timespan/force ←
15:07:44 <FabGandon> ... avoid shoot for too little or too much.
... avoid shoot for too little or too much. ←
15:08:05 <FabGandon> ... identify what can be done in other TF / WG.
... identify what can be done in other TF / WG. ←
15:08:37 <FabGandon> ... for vocs we could work on the basis of having an identified editor for each voc.
... for vocs we could work on the basis of having an identified editor for each voc. ←
15:08:50 <sandro> sandro: maybe the vocabs will each be time-permitting / nice-to-have
Sandro Hawke: maybe the vocabs will each be time-permitting / nice-to-have [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:09:04 <JeniT> http://www.epimorphics.com/public/vocabulary/org.html
Jeni Tennison: http://www.epimorphics.com/public/vocabulary/org.html ←
15:09:06 <FabGandon> JeniT: Organization Ontology
Jeni Tennison: Organization Ontology ←
15:10:00 <sandro> JeniT: foaf and vcard exist
Jeni Tennison: foaf and vcard exist [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:10:10 <FabGandon> ... Dave Reynolds put that together because nothing was putting togerther what we needed about Org.
... Dave Reynolds put that together because nothing was putting togerther what we needed about Org. ←
15:10:30 <FabGandon> ... so we took that and extended that for UK gov.
... so we took that and extended that for UK gov. ←
15:11:03 <FabGandon> Sandro: this is reusable in other organizations.
Sandro Hawke: this is reusable in other organizations. ←
15:11:32 <FabGandon> PhilA: very UK centric.
Phil Archer: very UK centric. ←
15:11:57 <FabGandon> Sandro: this should be blessed by W3C for others to use
Sandro Hawke: this should be blessed by W3C for others to use ←
15:12:13 <FabGandon> PhilA: an Org.org schema :-)
Phil Archer: an Org.org schema :-) ←
15:13:20 <martin> In Spain, we use it, and it was OK for our purpose (city council and departments)
Martin Alvarez: In Spain, we use it, and it was OK for our purpose (city council and departments) ←
15:13:21 <FabGandon> JeniT: change event is used to capture a change in an Organization, it is hook
Jeni Tennison: change event is used to capture a change in an Organization, it is hook ←
15:13:31 <sandro> JeniT: changeEvent hook for saying org1+org2 => org3
Jeni Tennison: changeEvent hook for saying org1+org2 => org3 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:14:22 <FabGandon> tban: very useful to follow changes in structures and names, acronyms, etc.
Thomas Bandholtz: very useful to follow changes in structures and names, acronyms, etc. ←
15:14:49 <FabGandon> PhilA: does your national library archives web sites?
Phil Archer: does your national library archives web sites? ←
15:15:46 <JeniT> FabGandon: In France, we have law that says we must archive every French official media channel
Fabien Gandon: In France, we have law that says we must archive every French official media channel [ Scribe Assist by Jeni Tennison ] ←
15:15:51 <JeniT> ... and we don't know how to do that
Jeni Tennison: ... and we don't know how to do that ←
15:16:45 <FabGandon> Sandro: question of ontology engineering process and the way to go for a new voc.
Sandro Hawke: question of ontology engineering process and the way to go for a new voc. ←
15:17:22 <FabGandon> tban: I wouldn't use UML, this is not object-oriented work
Thomas Bandholtz: I wouldn't use UML, this is not object-oriented work ←
15:17:33 <FabGandon> ... I use TopBraid composer
... I use TopBraid composer ←
15:17:57 <FabGandon> ... nice figures.
... nice figures. ←
15:18:38 <FabGandon> ... Richard came up with SDMX but not enough sem. web oriented.
... Richard came up with SDMX but not enough sem. web oriented. ←
15:19:38 <FabGandon> JeniT: we work with Richard on that because SDMX is important in the statitician community
Jeni Tennison: we work with Richard on that because SDMX is important in the statitician community ←
15:19:57 <sandro> jeni: ONS used SDMX already, so it was opportunistic for us to use it.
Jeni Tennison: ONS used SDMX already, so it was opportunistic for us to use it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:20:27 <FabGandon> ... SDMX is hard but may be necessary.
... SDMX is hard but may be necessary. ←
15:21:02 <FabGandon> Sandro: we haven't solve the evolution story of how we move from a voc to the next.
Sandro Hawke: we haven't solve the evolution story of how we move from a voc to the next. ←
15:21:49 <FabGandon> JeniT: also hard to know when a voc is stable enough to be really used.
Jeni Tennison: also hard to know when a voc is stable enough to be really used. ←
15:22:17 <FabGandon> ... check list of what you expect from a voc.
... check list of what you expect from a voc. ←
15:22:26 <sandro> jeni: checklist item: have documentation which is good, have ref guide, examples, etc
Jeni Tennison: checklist item: have documentation which is good, have ref guide, examples, etc [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:22:48 <FabGandon> ... e.g. it must have ref guide, examples, managed by an org with a longevity, etc.
... e.g. it must have ref guide, examples, managed by an org with a longevity, etc. ←
15:23:19 <FabGandon> PhilA: for FOAF for instance the longevity of the domain is a problem.
Phil Archer: for FOAF for instance the longevity of the domain is a problem. ←
15:24:17 <JeniT> FabGandon: reading through the minutes yesterday, there's a good thing happening in eGov in that we have very stable bodies involved
Fabien Gandon: reading through the minutes yesterday, there's a good thing happening in eGov in that we have very stable bodies involved [ Scribe Assist by Jeni Tennison ] ←
15:24:24 <JeniT> ... INRIA is a government institute
Jeni Tennison: ... INRIA is a government institute ←
15:24:35 <JeniT> ... so we have hosting that is very stable
Jeni Tennison: ... so we have hosting that is very stable ←
15:24:42 <JeniT> ... people believe we will continue to exist
Jeni Tennison: ... people believe we will continue to exist ←
15:25:03 <JeniT> ... won't want to use a namespace hosted by the UK
Jeni Tennison: ... won't want to use a namespace hosted by the UK ←
15:25:20 <JeniT> ... but one hosted by a government would have longevity
Jeni Tennison: ... but one hosted by a government would have longevity ←
15:25:46 <JeniT> ... We tried several things, including knowledge engineering approach
Jeni Tennison: ... We tried several things, including knowledge engineering approach ←
15:25:55 <JeniT> ... tried VoCamp approach, where people come with a need for a vocabulary
Jeni Tennison: ... tried VoCamp approach, where people come with a need for a vocabulary ←
15:26:01 <JeniT> ... break up in small groups and hack
Jeni Tennison: ... break up in small groups and hack ←
15:26:07 <JeniT> ... some of these were successful
Jeni Tennison: ... some of these were successful ←
15:26:20 <sandro> FabGandon: We tried Knowledge Engineering - limits, VoCamp fairly successful, ...
Fabien Gandon: We tried Knowledge Engineering - limits, VoCamp fairly successful, ... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:26:28 <JeniT> ... depends on scope of vocabulary
Jeni Tennison: ... depends on scope of vocabulary ←
15:26:45 <FabGandon> Sandro: this a question for the chairs and the group.
Sandro Hawke: this a question for the chairs and the group. ←
15:26:54 <FabGandon> ... any other org ontology.
... any other org ontology. ←
15:27:04 <FabGandon> JeniT: there is a blog post from Dave
Jeni Tennison: there is a blog post from Dave ←
15:27:11 <sandro> sandro: I'll just link to DER's blog post, with its references
Sandro Hawke: I'll just link to DER's blog post, with its references [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:27:25 <JeniT> http://www.epimorphics.com/web/wiki/organization-ontology-requirements
Jeni Tennison: http://www.epimorphics.com/web/wiki/organization-ontology-requirements ←
15:28:00 <sandro> bandholtz: what about sameAs inflation?
Thomas Bandholtz: what about sameAs inflation? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:28:09 <FabGandon> tban: the inflation of sameAs, and misuse of sameAs.
Thomas Bandholtz: the inflation of sameAs, and misuse of sameAs. ←
15:28:34 <FabGandon> ... I wouldn't sameAs, but what else.
... I wouldn't sameAs, but what else. ←
15:28:59 <sandro> bandholtz: mapping vocab like skos but without inferring it's a skos concept.
Thomas Bandholtz: mapping vocab like skos but without inferring it's a skos concept. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:29:45 <JeniT> FabGandon: subClassOf subPropertyOf also used in alignment
Fabien Gandon: subClassOf subPropertyOf also used in alignment [ Scribe Assist by Jeni Tennison ] ←
15:29:53 <FabGandon> ... provide a mapping voc with only properties and no classes to avoid inferences
... provide a mapping voc with only properties and no classes to avoid inferences ←
15:30:17 <sandro> sandro: bad sameAs is just bad data
Sandro Hawke: bad sameAs is just bad data [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:30:54 <sandro> FabGandon: in datalift, we are thinking about how to do mapping, from sameAs onto procedural declaration.
Fabien Gandon: in datalift, we are thinking about how to do mapping, from sameAs onto procedural declaration. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:31:31 <sandro> FabGandon: okaam huge eu project on this -- efficient sameAs resolution for semweb. give uri, it gives back ones which might be equivalent.
Fabien Gandon: okaam huge eu project on this -- efficient sameAs resolution for semweb. give uri, it gives back ones which might be equivalent. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:31:59 <sandro> FabGandon: (let's stay away from this...)
Fabien Gandon: (let's stay away from this...) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:32:21 <FabGandon> http://www.okkam.org/
15:33:40 <FabGandon> tban: when we try to link e.g GEMET and German Thesaurus we need the same in SKOS without domain and range.
Thomas Bandholtz: when we try to link e.g GEMET and German Thesaurus we need the same in SKOS without domain and range. ←
15:35:29 <sandro> jeni: a school is not a skos:Concept according to the SKOS spec
Jeni Tennison: a school is not a skos:Concept according to the SKOS spec [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:35:36 <sandro> sandro: skos is just broken. :-(
Sandro Hawke: skos is just broken. :-( [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:36:10 <FabGandon> JeniT: same name for a local authority vs. the area
Jeni Tennison: same name for a local authority vs. the area ←
15:36:41 <FabGandon> Sandro: you need to formalize properly.
Sandro Hawke: you need to formalize properly. ←
15:37:31 <FabGandon> tban: we should include the problems aboout alignment to be discussed in the charter
Thomas Bandholtz: we should include the problems aboout alignment to be discussed in the charter ←
15:39:28 <FabGandon> JeniT: if RDF 1.1 don't want to do it we have to come up with a convincing scenario
Jeni Tennison: if RDF 1.1 don't want to do it we have to come up with a convincing scenario ←
15:40:22 <FabGandon> Sandro: the key thing for people is to see if we can stabilize FOAF.
Sandro Hawke: the key thing for people is to see if we can stabilize FOAF. ←
15:40:26 <sandro> jeni: important to understand how foaf works with vcard
Jeni Tennison: important to understand how foaf works with vcard [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:40:53 <FabGandon> tban: what about foaf+ssl?
Thomas Bandholtz: what about foaf+ssl? ←
15:41:20 <FabGandon> JeniT: I wondered if we should include something about identitity in the eGov WG.
Jeni Tennison: I wondered if we should include something about identitity in the eGov WG. ←
15:42:04 <sandro> 4.4 Statistical/Data Cube Datasets
Sandro Hawke: 4.4 Statistical/Data Cube Datasets ←
15:42:23 <FabGandon> sandro: statistical, so far there is a sub-set of SDMX
Sandro Hawke: statistical, so far there is a sub-set of SDMX ←
15:42:32 <sandro> sandro: I'm hearing there's a subset of SDMX, cube, that's pretty good.
Sandro Hawke: I'm hearing there's a subset of SDMX, cube, that's pretty good. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:42:38 <JeniT> http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/html/cube.html
Jeni Tennison: http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/html/cube.html ←
15:42:48 <sandro> PhilA: It's good for describing what you see in CSVs.
Phil Archer: It's good for describing what you see in CSVs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:43:02 <FabGandon> PhilA: the cube ontology is good to describe the sort of data you find in CSV file.
Phil Archer: the cube ontology is good to describe the sort of data you find in CSV file. ←
15:43:55 <FabGandon> JeniT: Cube comes from the hypercube structure of the data.
Jeni Tennison: Cube comes from the hypercube structure of the data. ←
15:44:09 <FabGandon> JeniT: an observation is a cell in the cube
Jeni Tennison: an observation is a cell in the cube ←
15:44:27 <FabGandon> ... each dataset is described by a dataset def
... each dataset is described by a dataset def ←
15:45:38 <FabGandon> ... for statistical data, payment data, etc. any thing you put in a Spreadsheet
... for statistical data, payment data, etc. any thing you put in a Spreadsheet ←
15:45:49 <FabGandon> ... we use it a lot
... we use it a lot ←
15:47:03 <FabGandon> sandro: how can be sure this meets most needs?
Sandro Hawke: how can be sure this meets most needs? ←
15:47:33 <sandro> sandro: if we make this a Rec, who might object? Among people who buy into SDMX & RDF already....
Sandro Hawke: if we make this a Rec, who might object? Among people who buy into SDMX & RDF already.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:48:03 <sandro> PhilA: Statisticians might find this reduces too much.
Phil Archer: Statisticians might find this reduces too much. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:48:32 <FabGandon> Sandro: if we need more of SDMX can we extend it?
Sandro Hawke: if we need more of SDMX can we extend it? ←
15:48:44 <sandro> Jeni: that was the goal, yes.
Jeni Tennison: that was the goal, yes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:48:48 <FabGandon> JeniT: yes it was designed to be extended
Jeni Tennison: yes it was designed to be extended ←
15:49:07 <FabGandon> tban: we use it for measurment data
Thomas Bandholtz: we use it for measurment data ←
15:50:11 <FabGandon> JeniT: we wanted to publish statistic for a larger audience than the statistician community
Jeni Tennison: we wanted to publish statistic for a larger audience than the statistician community ←
15:50:37 <FabGandon> sandro: if we want to change these schema, how do we do that? what would be the process?
Sandro Hawke: if we want to change these schema, how do we do that? what would be the process? ←
15:51:02 <FabGandon> JeniT: feel free to take it !
Jeni Tennison: feel free to take it ! ←
15:51:43 <FabGandon> sandro: it rare that somebody does this kind of work and does follow it as an editor of the Rec.
Sandro Hawke: it rare that somebody does this kind of work and does follow it as an editor of the Rec. ←
15:52:12 <FabGandon> sandro: Data Cube seems important.
Sandro Hawke: Data Cube seems important. ←
15:52:58 <sandro> [edit] 4.5 Data Quality, Timeliness, Status
Sandro Hawke: [edit] 4.5 Data Quality, Timeliness, Status ←
15:53:48 <FabGandon> JeniT: I am sure that voiD as something about temporal validity
Jeni Tennison: I am sure that voiD as something about temporal validity ←
15:53:50 <sandro> jeni: we use dc:temporal for expressing the temporal range for which the data is true
Jeni Tennison: we use dc:temporal for expressing the temporal range for which the data is true [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:54:03 <FabGandon> ... we have our own small voc for that
... we have our own small voc for that ←
15:54:09 <sandro> jeni: we use our own data.gov.uk for draft-ness
Jeni Tennison: we use our own data.gov.uk for draft-ness [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:54:15 <FabGandon> ... nothing on data quality at the moment
... nothing on data quality at the moment ←
15:54:28 <FabGandon> PhilA: can't find this in voiD
Phil Archer: can't find this in voiD ←
15:54:38 <FabGandon> JeniT: in must be in RSS then
Jeni Tennison: in must be in RSS then ←
15:55:04 <sandro> PhilA: Who is responsible for cleaning it up? Who will update it, and when?
Phil Archer: Who is responsible for cleaning it up? Who will update it, and when? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:55:11 <FabGandon> PhilA: need to know if the data I am using now will be here tomorrow
Phil Archer: need to know if the data I am using now will be here tomorrow ←
15:55:19 <sandro> PhilA: Ooften the data comes from screen-scraping!
Phil Archer: Ooften the data comes from screen-scraping! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:55:27 <FabGandon> ... need to know how often data updated
... need to know how often data updated ←
15:55:52 <sandro> FabGandon: This is in Provenance -- an expiration
Fabien Gandon: This is in Provenance -- an expiration [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:56:23 <FabGandon> JeniT: this is new work probably
Jeni Tennison: this is new work probably ←
15:56:27 <sandro> JeniT: I think this is new work, much less baked than data cube
Jeni Tennison: I think this is new work, much less baked than data cube [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:56:50 <FabGandon> sandro: the WG could provide such voc.
Sandro Hawke: the WG could provide such voc. ←
15:57:04 <FabGandon> JeniT: it fits under dcat
Jeni Tennison: it fits under dcat ←
15:57:05 <sandro> jeni: This goes under dcat -- it applies to data sets.
Jeni Tennison: This goes under dcat -- it applies to data sets. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:57:42 <sandro> FabGandon: Granularity might be small -- some bit of the data changes often, some bit doesn't.
Fabien Gandon: Granularity might be small -- some bit of the data changes often, some bit doesn't. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:59:10 <sandro> FabGandon: this might not be about the dataset, it might be about one subgraph within the dataset.
Fabien Gandon: this might not be about the dataset, it might be about one subgraph within the dataset. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:59:49 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
Phil Archer: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
15:59:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA ←
16:00:05 <sandro> bandholtz: In the Gazettier, when we have changes in communities, merging, the official service just drops the old communities. We don't drop them, we mark them expired.
Thomas Bandholtz: In the Gazettier, when we have changes in communities, merging, the official service just drops the old communities. We don't drop them, we mark them expired. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:00:16 <sandro> bandholtz: dcat should describe your policies about such things.
Thomas Bandholtz: dcat should describe your policies about such things. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:00:22 <FabGandon> tban: the policy should be also described on the dcat level.
Thomas Bandholtz: the policy should be also described on the dcat level. ←
16:01:18 <FabGandon> sandro: the granularity problem might be more general with dcat and dataset.
Sandro Hawke: the granularity problem might be more general with dcat and dataset. ←
16:01:37 <FabGandon> ... granularity can be a political game.
... granularity can be a political game. ←
16:02:36 <sandro> sandro: so if dcat can handle the gran. then this can be folded in.
Sandro Hawke: so if dcat can handle the gran. then this can be folded in. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:02:52 <sandro> 4.6 Assumptions/Basis/Comparability of Data
Sandro Hawke: 4.6 Assumptions/Basis/Comparability of Data ←
16:03:17 <FabGandon> JeniT: we need to know if we can compare two values.
Jeni Tennison: we need to know if we can compare two values. ←
16:03:22 <sandro> jeni: In statistical data they really care if you can compare two values, because defn of some bit in your data changed.
Jeni Tennison: In statistical data they really care if you can compare two values, because defn of some bit in your data changed. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:03:26 <FabGandon> ... e.g. after a policy change.
... e.g. after a policy change. ←
16:04:09 <sandro> JeniT: annotate a qb:observation to say this is not comparable, etc.
Jeni Tennison: annotate a qb:observation to say this is not comparable, etc. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:04:28 <sandro> JeniT: Vocab for classiying these kinds of annotations
Jeni Tennison: Vocab for classiying these kinds of annotations [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:04:36 <FabGandon> PhilA: we have a 10 month data vs. an 11 month data
Phil Archer: we have a 10 month data vs. an 11 month data ←
16:04:53 <FabGandon> tban: different methods in differents countries.
Thomas Bandholtz: different methods in differents countries. ←
16:04:55 <sandro> bandholtz: lining maps up between country, INSPIRE Harmonization effort.
Thomas Bandholtz: lining maps up between country, INSPIRE Harmonization effort. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:05:33 <sandro> FabGandon: The notion of an unemployed person in France is totally different than in some other countries -- not comparable.
Fabien Gandon: The notion of an unemployed person in France is totally different than in some other countries -- not comparable. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:05:55 <FabGandon> JeniT: encourage people to use different terms when they use different notions
Jeni Tennison: encourage people to use different terms when they use different notions ←
16:06:01 <sandro> JeniT: Sometime you just mean datafr:unemployment has a different URI than datauk:unemployment
Jeni Tennison: Sometime you just mean datafr:unemployment has a different URI than datauk:unemployment [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:06:27 <FabGandon> ... there may be some matches but when we use the same URI it IS the same thing
... there may be some matches but when we use the same URI it IS the same thing ←
16:06:50 <sandro> JeniT: this is more about same vocab, same dimension, ... this is to annotate where it's different.
Jeni Tennison: this is more about same vocab, same dimension, ... this is to annotate where it's different. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:07:45 <FabGandon> JeniT: at least we should be able to say "this is a statement about comparability".
Jeni Tennison: at least we should be able to say "this is a statement about comparability". ←
16:08:03 <sandro> JeniT: This is for categories of ways to annotate observations.
Jeni Tennison: This is for categories of ways to annotate observations. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:08:22 <FabGandon> tban: using different URIs is different from using different terms.
Thomas Bandholtz: using different URIs is different from using different terms. ←
16:09:15 <FabGandon> sandro: no candidate voc on that right now?
Sandro Hawke: no candidate voc on that right now? ←
16:09:16 <JeniT> http://sdmx.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/01_sdmx_cog_annex_1_cdc_2009.pdf
Jeni Tennison: http://sdmx.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/01_sdmx_cog_annex_1_cdc_2009.pdf ←
16:09:33 <FabGandon> JeniT: some of the SDMX voc may be relevant
Jeni Tennison: some of the SDMX voc may be relevant ←
16:09:55 <FabGandon> ... Dave has mapped those onto a voc which could be a candidate
... Dave has mapped those onto a voc which could be a candidate ←
16:10:15 <JeniT> http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/vocab/sdmx-concept.ttl
Jeni Tennison: http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/vocab/sdmx-concept.ttl ←
16:10:56 <sandro> [edit] 4.7 Describing Visualization and Presentation
Sandro Hawke: [edit] 4.7 Describing Visualization and Presentation ←
16:11:10 <sandro> fresnel
Sandro Hawke: fresnel ←
16:11:40 <FabGandon> http://www.w3.org/2005/04/fresnel-info/
http://www.w3.org/2005/04/fresnel-info/ ←
16:12:36 <sandro> sandro: not hearing a lot of interest/experience on this one.
Sandro Hawke: not hearing a lot of interest/experience on this one. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:12:45 <sandro> FabGandon: Fresnel has a huge potential
Fabien Gandon: Fresnel has a huge potential [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:13:46 <FabGandon> sandro: design pattern for URIs
Sandro Hawke: design pattern for URIs ←
16:13:53 <sandro> 5.1 Design Patterns for URIs
Sandro Hawke: 5.1 Design Patterns for URIs ←
16:14:12 <FabGandon> JeniT: updated version:
Jeni Tennison: updated version: ←
16:14:22 <JeniT> http://data.gov.uk/resources/uris
Jeni Tennison: http://data.gov.uk/resources/uris ←
16:14:41 <FabGandon> ... it takes a different kind of angle.
... it takes a different kind of angle. ←
16:16:02 <FabGandon> sandro: huge design space, how much we want to expand or focus the design space
Sandro Hawke: huge design space, how much we want to expand or focus the design space ←
16:16:33 <FabGandon> ... should we give all the options or pescribe some good practices?
... should we give all the options or pescribe some good practices? ←
16:16:45 <sandro> PhilA: use of id, 303 to doc, SHOULD be in LD
Phil Archer: use of id, 303 to doc, SHOULD be in LD [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:17:07 <PhilA> I mean - the pattern http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/department/co breaks down as
Phil Archer: I mean - the pattern http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/department/co breaks down as ←
16:17:11 <sandro> JeniT: sayig do 4.2 from coolURIs
Jeni Tennison: sayig do 4.2 from coolURIs [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:17:39 <PhilA> {sector}.data.gov.uk/id/{department}/unique_identifier
Phil Archer: {sector}.data.gov.uk/id/{department}/unique_identifier ←
16:18:02 <FabGandon> JeniT: sometimes the pattern does work well
Jeni Tennison: sometimes the pattern does work well ←
16:18:23 <PhilA> If you dereference that, the /id/ gets replaced by /doc/ as part of the HTTP 303 (see other) response, and that leads to a document that describes the original identified thing
Phil Archer: If you dereference that, the /id/ gets replaced by /doc/ as part of the HTTP 303 (see other) response, and that leads to a document that describes the original identified thing ←
16:18:27 <sandro> JeniT: Although that pattern works really well in some circumstances, it doesnt for others. eg for the people in the org structures, we dont have a good URI pattern. so we end up using hash URIs in the datasets, thinking they might be linked up later.
Jeni Tennison: Although that pattern works really well in some circumstances, it doesnt for others. eg for the people in the org structures, we dont have a good URI pattern. so we end up using hash URIs in the datasets, thinking they might be linked up later. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:18:32 <FabGandon> ... we used # URIs depending on the dataset.
... we used # URIs depending on the dataset. ←
16:18:44 <sandro> JeniT: just using pattern 4.2 doesn't always work well.
Jeni Tennison: just using pattern 4.2 doesn't always work well. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:18:46 <FabGandon> ... not simple to just say use that pattern.
... not simple to just say use that pattern. ←
16:20:02 <sandro> FabGandon: need keys :-
Fabien Gandon: need keys :- [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:20:06 <sandro> FabGandon: need keys :-)
Fabien Gandon: need keys :-) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:20:19 <sandro> sandro: Just get everyone to mint URIs for themselves :-)
Sandro Hawke: Just get everyone to mint URIs for themselves :-) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:20:40 <FabGandon> tban: the original URL of TimBL also described what you should not do.
Thomas Bandholtz: the original URL of TimBL also described what you should not do. ←
16:21:15 <sandro> bandholtz: '98 cool uris, don't put classifications/datatypes into URI, or other things that would make them change.
Thomas Bandholtz: '98 cool uris, don't put classifications/datatypes into URI, or other things that would make them change. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:22:20 <sandro> FabGandon: Don't forget there are scenarios where you want to do the opposite -- to anonymous people.
Fabien Gandon: Don't forget there are scenarios where you want to do the opposite -- to anonymous people. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:23:56 <sandro> bandholtz: I've come to prefer totally opaque URIs.
Thomas Bandholtz: I've come to prefer totally opaque URIs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:23:59 <FabGandon> tban: generally I prefer URI that don't tell anything by themselves
Thomas Bandholtz: generally I prefer URI that don't tell anything by themselves ←
16:24:54 <FabGandon> sandro: what should we do?
Sandro Hawke: what should we do? ←
16:25:11 <JeniT> FabGandon: it could be 'follow the guidelines of the LOD group'
Fabien Gandon: it could be 'follow the guidelines of the LOD group' [ Scribe Assist by Jeni Tennison ] ←
16:25:27 <FabGandon> sandro: one output could be follow 4.2
Sandro Hawke: one output could be follow 4.2 ←
16:25:59 <sandro> sandro: maybe a flowchart, even!
Sandro Hawke: maybe a flowchart, even! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:26:28 <sandro> JeniT: I found we needed design patterns not just for schools, but also for vocabs, concept schemes, datasets.
Jeni Tennison: I found we needed design patterns not just for schools, but also for vocabs, concept schemes, datasets. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:26:34 <FabGandon> JeniT: we also need design patterns for URIs for schemas
Jeni Tennison: we also need design patterns for URIs for schemas ←
16:27:47 <FabGandon> sandro: versioning of dataset crosses with the temporal point before.
Sandro Hawke: versioning of dataset crosses with the temporal point before. ←
16:29:12 <sandro> sandro: shoud I fold this into designing-URI, or timeliness vocab ?
Sandro Hawke: shoud I fold this into designing-URI, or timeliness vocab ? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:29:32 <FabGandon> tban: what does versioning mean here, e.g. statiscal data changes every year
Thomas Bandholtz: what does versioning mean here, e.g. statiscal data changes every year ←
16:29:33 <sandro> bandholtz: Every year has year more --- discussion of versioning.
Thomas Bandholtz: Every year has year more --- discussion of versioning. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:29:44 <sandro> bandholtz: verionsing of vocab, too.
Thomas Bandholtz: verionsing of vocab, too. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:29:59 <sandro> Jeni: how you design URIs, how you design the data....
Jeni Tennison: how you design URIs, how you design the data.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:30:37 <sandro> 5.3 Change Propagation and Notification
Sandro Hawke: 5.3 Change Propagation and Notification ←
16:30:50 <sandro> dady -- dataset dynamic
Sandro Hawke: dady -- dataset dynamic ←
16:31:16 <sandro> I think of this as protocol,
Sandro Hawke: I think of this as protocol, ←
16:31:40 <sandro> FabGandon: RSS feed of changes -- talis changest vocab
Fabien Gandon: RSS feed of changes -- talis changest vocab [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:31:48 <sandro> JeniT: Sparql push
Jeni Tennison: Sparql push [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:31:52 <JeniT> http://code.google.com/p/sparqlpush/
Jeni Tennison: http://code.google.com/p/sparqlpush/ ←
16:32:56 <JeniT> http://esw.w3.org/DatasetDynamics
Jeni Tennison: http://esw.w3.org/DatasetDynamics ←
16:33:04 <sandro> seems out of scope
Sandro Hawke: seems out of scope ←
16:33:09 <sandro> JeniT: we need to do it anyway
Jeni Tennison: we need to do it anyway [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:33:27 <sandro> JeniT: (we = data.gov.uk)
Jeni Tennison: (we = data.gov.uk) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:33:28 <FabGandon> PhilA: also about SPARQL Push
Phil Archer: also about SPARQL Push ←
16:34:01 <FabGandon> JeniT: we need that for data that we are publishing every week
Jeni Tennison: we need that for data that we are publishing every week ←
16:34:13 <sandro> JeniT: We'll see data published on a weekly basis, so we need
Jeni Tennison: We'll see data published on a weekly basis, so we need [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:34:13 <FabGandon> ... we need to a a design pattern for that
... we need to a a design pattern for that ←
16:34:39 <FabGandon> sandro: just publishing the new data is not enough?
Sandro Hawke: just publishing the new data is not enough? ←
16:34:44 <FabGandon> JeniT: no
Jeni Tennison: no ←
16:35:24 <FabGandon> ... links back to the named graphs.
... links back to the named graphs. ←
16:36:34 <sandro> FabGandon: It's too big for this....
Fabien Gandon: It's too big for this.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:36:57 <sandro> 5.4 Distributed Query
Sandro Hawke: 5.4 Distributed Query ←
16:37:22 <FabGandon> sandro: too big to be handled here.
Sandro Hawke: too big to be handled here. ←
16:37:29 <sandro> same as above -- needs to be done, too big for us.
Sandro Hawke: same as above -- needs to be done, too big for us. ←
16:37:54 <FabGandon> SPARQL 1.1 has some elements of answer.
SPARQL 1.1 has some elements of answer. ←
16:38:09 <sandro> JeniT: Maybe it goes into procurement guidelines, eg Sparql 1.1 service descriptions suitable fo rhtis
Jeni Tennison: Maybe it goes into procurement guidelines, eg Sparql 1.1 service descriptions suitable fo rhtis [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:38:16 <sandro> 5.5 Developer-Friendly API and Serialization
Sandro Hawke: 5.5 Developer-Friendly API and Serialization ←
16:38:23 <sandro> linked-data api
Sandro Hawke: linked-data api ←
16:39:01 <FabGandon> sandro: JSON syntax for RDF should be part of the charter of RDF 1.1
Sandro Hawke: JSON syntax for RDF should be part of the charter of RDF 1.1 ←
16:39:25 <sandro> PhilA: should be relatively easy to get out the door
Phil Archer: should be relatively easy to get out the door [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:39:57 <sandro> JeniT: Yes, 3 impls, could be fast, but does need wider review -- eg for impementations.
Jeni Tennison: Yes, 3 impls, could be fast, but does need wider review -- eg for impementations. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:40:46 <FabGandon> PhilA: it is manageable and we should pursue this
Phil Archer: it is manageable and we should pursue this ←
16:40:47 <sandro> PhilA: this is really important, and doable.
Phil Archer: this is really important, and doable. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:40:59 <FabGandon> ... important in terms of deployment
... important in terms of deployment ←
16:41:20 <FabGandon> sandro: will still exist even if we don't do anything within W3C
Sandro Hawke: will still exist even if we don't do anything within W3C ←
16:41:44 <FabGandon> PhilA: from a visibility point of you this is important
Phil Archer: from a visibility point of you this is important ←
16:42:48 <sandro> sandro: I'm worried about arbitrary decisions in the design coming back to be a problem in the WG
Sandro Hawke: I'm worried about arbitrary decisions in the design coming back to be a problem in the WG [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:42:59 <sandro> JeniT: the JSON might be a problem.
Jeni Tennison: the JSON might be a problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:43:39 <sandro> JeniT: I think we're a lot of the way there, but leaning towards its own WG.
Jeni Tennison: I think we're a lot of the way there, but leaning towards its own WG. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:44:26 <FabGandon> PhilA: need to talk about outreach
Phil Archer: need to talk about outreach ←
16:44:31 <sandro> [edit] 2.5 Outreach
Sandro Hawke: [edit] 2.5 Outreach ←
16:44:41 <FabGandon> ... it needs to happen somehow
... it needs to happen somehow ←
16:44:50 <sandro> PhilA: somehow this has to happen, perhaps via EU funding
Phil Archer: somehow this has to happen, perhaps via EU funding [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:45:10 <FabGandon> ... some way to distribute the output of the group among the governments
... some way to distribute the output of the group among the governments ←
16:46:05 <FabGandon> sandro: counter argument: the focus of the WG is the how not the why.
Sandro Hawke: counter argument: the focus of the WG is the how not the why. ←
16:46:44 <FabGandon> ... the demos of the "how" will make the job of the people doing the "why" easyer
... the demos of the "how" will make the job of the people doing the "why" easyer ←
16:47:10 <sandro> robin: In general, WGs are pretty bad at selling their own stuff, being so involved in the technical work.
Robin Berjon: In general, WGs are pretty bad at selling their own stuff, being so involved in the technical work. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:47:50 <sandro> ... people who were writing great blogs went silent when they joined the WG.
Sandro Hawke: ... people who were writing great blogs went silent when they joined the WG. ←
16:47:55 <FabGandon> robin: may be outreach should happen outside the WG
Robin Berjon: may be outreach should happen outside the WG ←
16:49:21 <FabGandon> sandro: could still be included in the charter.
Sandro Hawke: could still be included in the charter. ←
16:50:03 <sandro> PhilA: marketing is important in making markets
Phil Archer: marketing is important in making markets [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:52:05 <FabGandon> sandro: I don't have any exact data about the number of members for the WG.
Sandro Hawke: I don't have any exact data about the number of members for the WG. ←
16:55:24 <sandro> JeniT: great value to have new folks in WG, so people experience having to explain this stuff
Jeni Tennison: great value to have new folks in WG, so people experience having to explain this stuff [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:09:04 <PhilA> rrsagent, generate minutes
(No events recorded for 13 minutes)
Phil Archer: rrsagent, generate minutes ←
17:09:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA ←
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This revision (#1) generated 2010-11-17 18:46:24 UTC by 'unknown', comments: None