Chatlog 2010-11-02

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<sandro> Agenda:
<sandro> Chair: Sandro
<sandro> Present: Sandro
<sandro> Guest: Karen (karen) Myers,, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Jeni Tennison, TSO
<sandro> Guest: Daniel (dd) Dardailler,, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Roger Cutler, Chevron
<sandro> Guest: Phil Archer, W3C and Talis
<sandro> Guest: Martin Alvarez, CTIC
<sandro> Guest: Thomas Bandholtz
<sandro> Guest: Antonio Sergio Cangiano, SERPRO (Brazilian Federal Agency of Information Technology) 
<sandro> Guest: Jose Leocadio, SERPRO (Brazilian Federal Agency of Information Technology) 
<sandro> Guest: Yosuke Funahashi, Tomo-Digi Corporation 
<sandro> Guest: Vagner (Vagner-br) Diniz,
<sandro> Guest: Karen Burns, New Zealand State Services Commission
<sandro> Guest: Tim (TimBL) Berners-Lee, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Robin (darobin) Berjon
<sandro> Guest: Fabien Gandon, INRIA
<sandro> Topic: Morning Introductions
08:00:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
08:00:56 <RRSAgent> logging to
08:01:13 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public'
08:01:14 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
08:01:20 <sandro> People in room, in order:
08:01:20 <sandro> Karen Myers
08:01:20 <sandro> Sandro Hawke
08:01:20 <sandro> Jeni Tennison
08:01:20 <sandro> Daniel Dardailler
08:01:21 <sandro> Roger Cutler
08:01:23 <sandro> Phil Archer, W3T + Talis
08:01:24 <karen> karen has joined #egov
08:01:27 <sandro> Martín Álvarez, Fundación CTIC
08:01:29 <sandro> Thomas Bandholtz  Germany  -- LD Environrment Data
08:01:31 <sandro> Antonio Sergio Cangiano, SERPRO
08:01:33 <sandro> Jose Leocadio, SERPRO
08:01:35 <sandro> Yosuke Funahashi, Tomo-Digi Corporation 
08:01:37 <bandholtz> bandholtz has joined #egov
08:01:37 <sandro> Vagner Diniz
08:01:39 <sandro> Karen Burns
08:03:16 <PhilA> PhilA has joined #egov
08:03:30 <PhilA> scribe: PhilA
08:03:35 <PhilA> scribeNick:PhilA
<sandro> Topic: eGov Education and Outreach
08:03:39 <karen> Daniel: Are we going to talk about the creation of a task force to look at education and outreach?
08:03:51 <martin> martin has joined #egov
08:03:55 <PhilA> DD: Raises issue of non-tech education & outreach
08:04:04 <PhilA> .. (as possible agenda item later)
08:04:33 <PhilA> Karen: 1.5 yrs ago we had an active task force 
08:04:40 <PhilA> .. comm team etc. planning lots of stuff
08:04:59 <PhilA> .. then there was a shift in priorities, and Josema left. It was very effective when we were doing it
08:05:27 <PhilA> .. I have a personal interest. We have some support from our PR firm that has a knowledge base in this area.
08:05:37 <PhilA> .. but it's US-based. Need a more global view
08:06:03 <PhilA> DD: There is funding from the EU to help PSI
08:06:11 <PhilA> Karen: I like the idea of a TF. 
08:06:31 <PhilA> .. if there's a need for an IG just looking at that, all well and good
08:06:40 <PhilA> DD: we could spin off other groups from the IG
08:07:08 <PhilA> Karen: We need high level messages - what is open data, what is Linked data etc.
08:07:17 <PhilA> PhilA: Talis is interested in this ;-)
08:07:29 <PhilA> Sandro: Others?
08:07:46 <PhilA> Interest in the room from New Zealand, Brazil and more
08:08:02 <sandro> Karen B, Vagner
08:08:05 <karen> Vagner Diniz, Karen Burns
08:09:16 <PhilA> action: Daniel D to set up task Force on EO
08:09:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-118 - D to set up task Force on EO [on Daniel Bennett - due 2010-11-09].
08:10:14 <PhilA> Topic: Linked data at
08:10:25 <PhilA> Jeni: Takes the floor...
08:10:40 <PhilA> .. shows Web Site
08:10:59 <sandro> ACTION-118 is really on Daniel Dardailler not Daniel Bennett.
08:11:03 <PhilA> (
08:11:31 <PhilA> Jeni: Most data is in CSV or XML. Some, but not much, LD
08:11:54 <PhilA> .. explains the term 'organogram' to mean org chart, organisational info etc.
08:12:26 <PhilA> .. an edict from gov said that all departments should publish their organograms on, and it specified what info had to be included
08:12:38 <PhilA> .. about 62 on d.g.u now
08:13:04 <PhilA> .. majority published a PDF of their organisational structure
08:13:28 <PhilA> .. pretty pictures with tables that don't help a lot as there's no data to pull out
08:13:45 <PhilA> rrsagent, make logs public
08:14:10 <PhilA> Jeni: some of the org charts use headings defined centrally
08:14:16 <PhilA> .. some published as Power Point
08:14:27 <PhilA> .. senior post data includes reporting structures
08:14:32 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:14:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate PhilA
08:15:02 <PhilA> Jeni: shows a CSV file
08:15:24 <PhilA> .. talks about 'Gridworks', now renamed 'Google Refine'
08:15:45 <PhilA> .. see
08:15:51 <PhilA> Roger C: That's cool!
08:15:56 <PhilA> Jeni: yes it is!
08:16:13 <PhilA> .. important tool for cleaning up data
08:16:23 <PhilA> .. sometehing that non-specialists can use
08:16:37 <PhilA> .. Demos Google Refine
08:16:55 <PhilA> .. You can see the facets for a column, edit values that have gone wrong, edit column names
08:17:46 <PhilA> .. the key point is that civil servants can use this tool
08:18:05 <PhilA> .. we have gone round training a bunch of civil servants. Lots of good feedback. People have begun using it
08:18:32 <PhilA> .. extremely nice features around reconciling data around already published data
08:18:57 <PhilA> .. you can ask the tool to reconcile a column
08:19:11 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #egov
08:19:15 <sandro> gridworks "reconcile" to link to web data.  nice!
08:19:17 <PhilA> .. turns strings into links (if it finds relevant data)
08:19:41 <PhilA> Jeni: You can do a bit of manual work to produce clean RDF without actually handling RDF (knowlingly)
08:19:45 <PhilA> .. you can apply scripts
08:19:56 <PhilA> .. shows adding a column for, in this case, provenance
08:20:08 <PhilA> .. tries to keep track of where we get data from
08:21:14 <PhilA> .. and if I open up a script (in this case, a bit of JSON). Paste that in and apply those instructions - it will perform various tasks, creating extra columns etc.
08:21:25 <PhilA> .. my script adds in lots of URIs in this case
08:21:34 <PhilA> .. (URIs central to linked data)
08:22:15 <PhilA> .. DERI has created a plug in that describes the data
08:22:40 <PhilA> .. now can export the data as turtle or RDF/XML
08:22:58 <PhilA> (Shows RDF generated from the CSV)
08:23:23 <PhilA> Jeni: You can see the different posts within 'BIS' (Department of Business Innovation and Skills)
08:23:37 <PhilA> .. we run several stores, mostly hosted by Talis
08:23:39 <sandro> (I wonder if there's a way to simplify that script application process....)
08:23:53 <PhilA> .. they bring together data sets for, say, transport
08:23:58 <PhilA> .. then one on education and so on
08:24:06 <PhilA> .. organogram data is "reference data"
08:24:17 <PhilA> i.e.
08:24:49 <PhilA> (Shows SPARQL queries against BIS organogram data). Live. No safety net
08:25:09 <PhilA> Voila! Some results
08:25:38 <PhilA> Jeni: Most people, including developers, don't react well to being asked to write SPARQL queries
08:25:56 <PhilA> .. so we have added a layer on top of the SPARQL to provide a simpler API
08:26:06 <PhilA> .. I'll show you the basic Linked data API first of all
08:27:31 <PhilA>
08:27:42 <PhilA> Shows how this gives a 303 to
08:27:56 <PhilA> demos exploring the data
08:28:21 <karen> q+
08:28:49 <PhilA> ack ka
08:28:56 <PhilA> Karen: This is fabulous
08:29:05 <PhilA> .. practical question - who is updating the data?
08:29:33 <PhilA> Jeni: the generic answer is "how long is a piece of string". Some data changes daily, some changes much less frequently
08:29:58 <PhilA> .. for organogram work, the stipulation was that data should be valid on 30/6/10 and should be updated every 6 months
08:30:08 <PhilA> Karen: How did the departments react?
08:30:22 <PhilA> Jeni: It was hard. it took a big stick from the Cabinet office to get it done
08:30:37 <PhilA> Jeni: Most departmetns have generated just a PDF or a POwer Point
08:30:48 <PhilA> .. some generated a CSV (prob by HR with help from IT dept)
08:31:06 <PhilA> .. generation of RDF was done by me (x 6). One dept has done it themselves
08:31:16 <PhilA> Karen: And they can navigate this UI?
08:31:41 <PhilA> Jeni: This UI is designed to show them the benefit of doing it as LD. Shwoing that people can navigate around the data
08:31:49 <PhilA> .. you can see the different sources of the data
08:32:02 <PhilA> Sandro: Is everyone's salary info public by law?
08:32:15 <PhilA> Jeni: Top civil servants - although it's not by law, it's the culture
08:32:40 <PhilA> Roger: Who wants to do this and why?
08:33:01 <PhilA> Jeni: WE have a strong developer community in the UK. They want to get hold of gov data, package it and so on
08:33:22 <PhilA> .. they usually want to pursue this for lobbying or political ends
08:33:45 <PhilA> Jeni: person X is claiming ABC on their expenses, is this right?
08:34:14 <PhilA> .. personally I don't find that the most interesting data that governments can put out but it is where the current political drive is in the UK
08:34:22 <PhilA> Karen: it is tangible though
08:34:34 <PhilA> Jeni: School performance is something that people can relate to as well
08:35:15 <PhilA> Jeni: completes demo
08:35:37 <PhilA> .. this helps people explore the data and find out where the data came from
08:36:34 <sandro> exploring
08:36:40 <PhilA> .. shows XML data, or JSON data - the interface allows you to access the data in various formats. Just add .xml or .json to the URI. That's what the Linked data API is about
08:37:16 <PhilA> Jeni: So much for the data, available as an explorer and as data for developers. But it's not especially pretty
08:37:25 <PhilA> Jeni: so let's see if we can find a pretty output
08:37:39 <PhilA> Demos BIS organogram visualisation
08:38:12 <PhilA>
08:38:51 <PhilA> Sandro: Does it go all the way ip to the prime minister?
08:39:17 <sandro> sandro: if you want to get on this giant org chart, give us your RDF
08:39:24 <PhilA> Jeni: Not yet, but that would be cool, especially if it came out of all the different data sets created by different departments. The overall org chart comes out of its component parts - if you use linked data
08:39:45 <PhilA> Jeni: Getting to an end to end story like this has taken several months
08:40:04 <PhilA> .. we had to work out what URIs should look like for different departments. This is a department within a department, a unit etc.
08:40:28 <PhilA> .. we had to create some vocabularies for organisational structures generally and then specifically for UK
08:40:35 <PhilA> .. provenance data is very important
08:40:58 <PhilA> .. statistics around salary costs - needed a vocabulary for talking about statistical dta
08:41:17 <PhilA> .. and those fundamental design choices etc. had to be done to support the kind of end to end story we've been looking at here
08:41:36 <karen> q+
08:41:40 <PhilA> Sandro: Those vocabularies sound like candidates for standardisation
08:42:38 <PhilA> Roger: AIUI you started by defining standardised things. In the tool you had a reconciliation step that knew what to do with the data. So it must have been pretty close for automated reconciliation
08:42:44 <PhilA> .. what does that depend on?
08:43:21 <PhilA> Jeni: Gridworks takes the values that it finds in the column. Takes a sample, sends it to a reconciliation service - an API for this kind of thing
08:43:47 <PhilA> .. the Rec service looks at the values, looks at the data it has, and works out what it looks like and what vocab is appropriate
08:43:50 <sandro> sandro: I've put those vocabularies, as best I understood, into the GLD WG Work Items list,
08:45:38 <PhilA> .. recognising "John Smith" as a name cf. "Smith, John" is something the reconciliation service does. Leigh Dodds (Talis) created a good example of this
08:46:08 <PhilA> See
08:46:48 <PhilA> Further discussion on how this works between Roger, Jeni and Sandro
08:47:11 <PhilA> Roger: How does a salaray get recognised as a salary
08:47:17 <PhilA> Jeni: That's in the RDF schema
08:47:24 <sandro> sandro: so reconciliation takes strings which are intended to be identifiers and turns them into proper URI identifiers
08:47:32 <PhilA> .. and we can use the CSV column name as the hook
08:47:49 <PhilA> Roger: so "salary" might match and "sal" won't
08:47:51 <PhilA> Jeni: yes
08:48:07 <PhilA> Roger: So there's a certain amount of fixing up of "user data"
08:48:08 <sandro> q?
08:48:09 <PhilA> ack kar
08:48:24 <PhilA> karen: What is the UK gov policy towards the APIs?
08:49:26 <PhilA> jeni: The Linked data API is on Google Code and anyone can use it
08:50:09 <PhilA> Talis implementation in PHP
08:50:39 <PhilA> Karen: Are you shouting about this?
08:50:42 <PhilA> Jeni: yes
08:51:06 <PhilA> Sandro: The Linked data API work was presented at various meetings 
08:51:20 <PhilA> karen: so it needs more outreach
08:51:33 <PhilA> Roger: I'd like to hear more about how politicians talk about this?
08:51:41 <PhilA> Jeni: Gordon brown got it and understood it
08:52:02 <sandro> It's a possible item for GLD WG:
08:52:43 <PhilA> .. current government see it as part of the transparency agenda. Making data available in a machine readable format
08:59:45 <PhilA> Roger: Made the point that organisational capability, software support etc. is really important for commercial companies etc.
08:59:54 <PhilA> Vagner; Jeni talks about visualisation
09:00:09 <PhilA> .. has W3C done any work on visualisation?
09:00:20 <PhilA> Sandro; beyond CSS and SVG, I'm not aware of any
09:00:37 <PhilA> Vagner: You added this item on the WG. I wonder if it's something we need to discuss?
09:00:57 <PhilA> Sandro: That's coming out of the work but I don't know any more detail
09:02:53 <PhilA> PhilA: I think an RDF-SVG link would be cool
09:03:21 <PhilA> Fabien: Talks about an existing effort to link CSS, SPARQL and more
09:03:45 <PhilA> Topic: Open data initiatives in Spain
09:04:08 <PhilA> Martin: Shows map drawn in SVG, lots of tables in RDF so we're already linking RDf and SVG
09:04:16 <PhilA> Sandro: What's the linkage?
09:04:25 <PhilA> Martin: I think it's Java
09:04:32 <PhilA> Martin: begins talk
09:04:42 <FabGandon> Cytoscape combines SPARQL CONSTRUCT with a graph interface to allow the user to select and render RDF data
#09:05:09 <PhilA> s/Topic: Martin Alvarez, CTIC/Topic: Open data initiatives in Spain/
09:05:21 <PhilA> Martin: Open Data act 2007
09:05:30 <JeniT> JeniT has joined #egov
09:05:53 <PhilA> .. aim to create catalogue of open gov data
09:06:05 <FabGandon> more precisely the S*QL plugin for cytoscape
09:06:26 <PhilA> .. 3 regional governments (Asturias) Basque and Catalonia
09:06:50 <PhilA> Shows Asturias catalogue
09:06:58 <PhilA> Martin: only 4 data sets but all linked
09:07:12 <John> John has joined #egov
09:07:36 <PhilA> .. uses things like the organisation vocab, iCal etc.
09:07:49 <PhilA> .. project is 100% linked data, hosted on our own Oracle triple store
#09:08:15 <JeniT> s/won/own
09:08:16 <PhilA> .. we've added some Jena modules (and our own) to create SPARQL endpoints etc.
09:08:27 <PhilA> .. metadata modelled using VoID
09:08:41 <PhilA> .. HTML view generated dynamically
09:09:19 <PhilA> .. Basque country is similar but is focussed on raw data. They have some RDF links but they're static files to describe the data sets
09:09:30 <PhilA> .. more than 1,000 data sets in raw formats
09:09:37 <PhilA> .. useful info for citizens anda industry
09:10:05 <PhilA> .. translation memories (Euskara -> Espanol etc.)
09:10:18 <PhilA> .. Catalonia is a new one
09:10:33 <PhilA> .. this will be similar to Basque country initiative
09:10:42 <PhilA> .. most data will be in raw formats (CSV, XML etc.)
09:10:47 <PhilA> .. they will provide some info in RDf
09:11:01 <PhilA> .. as well as RDF static files
09:11:15 <PhilA> .. we're also creating a catalogue using DCAT
09:11:33 <PhilA> .. See
09:11:41 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:11:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate PhilA
09:11:44 <FabGandon> S*QL plugin for Cytoscape presentation here
09:12:12 <PhilA> Martin: they will present > 26K vCards in RDF, describing public centres, using linked data approach
09:12:59 <PhilA> .. as well as the regional governmetns we also have Zaragossa, Gijon and Barcelona as cities in the project
09:13:04 <PhilA> .. hope to have more info next month
09:13:18 <PhilA> s/Zaragossa/Saragossa/
09:13:38 <PhilA> .. Saragoss will be using linked data. Should be first city to adopt this
09:13:44 <PhilA> .. they're also using DCAT
09:14:06 <PhilA> .. Gijon is a simple project
09:14:26 <PhilA> .. adapting a CMS to provide RDF content representations in parallel byt adding RDFa to pages
09:14:45 <PhilA> .. we conclude that most governmetns are interested in publishing many data sets quickly
09:14:54 <PhilA> .. they want to release the data 'now'
09:15:00 <PhilA> .. they want good headlines
09:15:18 <PhilA> .. they are neutral on idea of linked data
09:15:38 <PhilA> .. they 'know' that semantic modelling is hard and they don't want to spend more time and money on it
09:15:48 <PhilA> .. for us it's easy to create examples. It's not so easy for the developers
09:15:58 <PhilA> .. maybe we need more examples like the Linked data API to help
09:16:15 <PhilA> .. this would help to help to foster the use of the linked data info
09:17:05 <PhilA> Jeni: It is the case that making data useable and reusable is hard. Linked data is no harder. It's making the data clean that's hard.
09:17:19 <sandro> jeni: Making data reusable is hard (not semantics, per se)
09:17:33 <karen> q+
09:17:33 <PhilA> Martin: we are trying to convince them using these examples. we gather their spreadsheets and show the linked data examples
09:17:47 <Ibrahima__> Ibrahima__ has joined #egov
09:18:13 <PhilA> ack kar
09:18:28 <martin> Example of linked data representation
09:18:31 <PhilA> Karen: Can you say a little more about the time and money. What levels of government are you working with?
09:19:12 <PhilA> Martin: The best example is Catalonia. They called us 15 days ago and said they wanted to have an open data site within a month. Can you help?
09:19:20 <PhilA> .. speed was major concern
09:19:33 <PhilA> .. get the data we have out there
09:20:09 <PhilA> .. they are convinced that linked data is a good solution, they want to follow it, but they prefer spending their resources in developing open data site, specifying the licence
09:20:17 <PhilA> .. LD comes later?
09:20:22 <PhilA> Karen: So who called you?
09:20:53 <PhilA> Martin: Not an IT person. More close to the citizenry
09:21:04 <PhilA> .. not sure of actual department
09:21:17 <PhilA> .. some are closer to the IT departments
09:21:23 <PhilA> Sandro: What was their motivation
09:21:32 <PhilA> Martin: They know about linked data because we told them about it 
09:21:46 <PhilA> .. most of them haven't heard about LD before
09:22:05 <PhilA> .. they know open data initiatives, not linked data
09:22:14 <PhilA> ..we managed to convince them ;-)
09:22:39 <PhilA> Sandro: Any other questions?
09:22:46 <PhilA> .. then we'll take our break now
09:23:01 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:23:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate PhilA
09:23:36 <sandro>
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09:58:43 <FabGandon>  Datalift:
09:58:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #egov
10:06:03 <sandro> topic: Fabien Gandon on France's DataLift Project
<sandro> scribe: sandro
10:06:08 <karen> karen has joined #egov
10:06:53 <sandro> fabien: I'm not speaking for all of France!    This is just one accepted project.     Accpted in june, kickoff was at end of September.
10:07:11 <sandro> ... Not a lot to show yet, but now is a good time to give us feedback.
10:07:46 <leocadio> leocadio has joined #egov
10:07:49 <sandro> ... Last year at ISWC we had a meetup, and discussed the lack of project in France
10:08:23 <sandro> ... We considered a prototype in Talis; first question --- where will the data physically be stored?  In the UK or France?
10:08:32 <sandro> ... considered cloud in Europe
10:08:48 <sandro> ... datalift == lifting from raw data to rdf in France
10:09:31 <sandro> ...Atos Origin will be integrator, building an open source integrated platform.    As side effect they'll be ready to offer services
10:09:50 <sandro> ... Mondeca is a KR firm in Paris, doing industrial knowledge modeling
10:10:41 <sandro> ... Academics: INRIA at Grenoble (aligning schemas), Eurocom, Lirmm (the guy from INRIA got promoted there).
10:10:59 <sandro> ... I'll be using DataLift as a scenario for pushing Named Graphs
10:11:21 <sandro> ... INSEE has all the national statistics for France, IGN has all the maps
10:11:47 <sandro> ... Fing is new generation of tools - use cases and business models
10:12:03 <sandro> ... Phase 1: an easy open end of data, open platform
10:12:28 <sandro> ... not re-inventing wheel.    We'll re-use existing solutions if they pass our benchmarks; all dev will be open source.
10:12:49 <sandro> ... - Assist the selection of data
10:13:17 <sandro> ... (every thing must be proven on INSEE and IGN data)
10:13:26 <sandro> ... - identify appropriate schemas
10:13:39 <PhilA> q+ to ask about licensing/openness of IGN data
10:14:33 <sandro> ack PhilA 
10:14:33 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to ask about licensing/openness of IGN data
10:15:11 <sandro> phil: glad to see IGN in there (we have Ordnance Survey, in UK, which does the mapping); OS wants money for some of the data.
10:15:59 <sandro> fabien: IGN has to get half their budget from sales, so that is a concern
10:16:03 <David> David has joined #egov
10:16:20 <sandro> roger: RDF only, or OWL too?
10:16:34 <sandro> fabien: We'll use OWL when the scenario calls for it
10:17:01 <sandro> fabien: We are concerned about speed of reasoning, so we'll have to strike the balance
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10:17:34 <sandro> sandro: you don't have to do the reasoning
10:17:49 <sandro> fabien: it depends on the scenario
10:18:16 <sandro> roger: Is this typical in eGov, to do this tradeoff?
10:18:57 <sandro> fabien: Everyone needs to make this kind of tradeoff
10:19:06 <sandro> jeni: we're mostly staying away from OWL
10:19:17 <sandro> fabien: if we need some bit of OWL, then we can use it.
10:19:36 <sandro> fabien: With Atos, we'll benchmark every solution and see what scales well enough.
10:20:10 <sandro> roger: in HCLS, I saw a very elaborate authentication scheme, that was depending on just being in RDF [[S?]].
10:20:21 <sandro> fabien: I heard of this in Freebase
10:20:52 <emma> emma has joined #egov
10:21:29 <sandro> ... not even using RDFS because it was deemed too expensive.
10:21:42 <sandro> ... - format conversion & connectors
10:21:47 <Roger> I believe it was RDFS
10:22:00 <sandro> ... (eg csv to rdf)
10:22:10 <Roger> The system was called S3.  It's pretty interesting.
10:22:46 <sandro> ... - data publication itself (led by Atos)
10:22:59 <sandro> ... - interconnecting data
10:23:28 <sandro> .. eg URI for Paris connected to other URIs for Paris
10:23:33 <sandro> ... (or re-used)
10:24:01 <sandro> phil: What about talking to developers about using the data?
10:24:12 <sandro> fabien: Yes, we should have raised that topic more.
10:24:27 <sandro> ... it's one thing to show how to publish data; it's another thing maintain it
10:24:31 <Roger> Sorry -- S3DB
10:24:59 <sandro> ... our developers mostly don't speak SPARQL and many don't speak English.
10:25:15 <sandro> ... so a cookbook in English wont be enough
10:25:32 <sandro> BANDHOLTZ: (missed question)
10:25:37 <sandro> fabien: As soon as possible
10:26:15 <sandro> fabien: Other topics: visualize, API for mobile, clouds, legal advice, cookbook
10:27:16 <sandro> fabien: can you legally protect a URI?
10:27:32 <sandro> phil: *boom*    TimBL exploding on hearing that   [imagined]
10:27:57 <sandro> fabien: R&D challenges:
10:28:05 <sandro> ... methods and metrics for schema selection
10:28:27 <sandro> ... balance of specific needs & reusability  (I think there is a tradeoff between usability and reusability)
10:28:43 <sandro> ... data conversion & identifiers generation
10:29:03 <sandro> ... automation of dataset interconnection (via Jerome Euzenat)
10:29:32 <sandro> ... named graphs [hopefully aligned with RDF 1.1), provenance, licenses and rights   
10:29:34 <Roger> S3DB Permissioning:
10:30:33 <sandro> ... First 18 months get platform running by www2012 in this building in Lyon!, then 18 more months. 
10:30:47 <sandro> ... user's club -- folks who want to use it
10:31:19 <sandro> ... includes City of Bordeaux
10:31:28 <sandro> ... Various Liaisons
10:31:56 <sandro> sandro: how much money is the funding?
10:32:22 <sandro> fabien: 3 years, about 2-3k per year, some more for leader.
10:32:45 <sandro> fabien: may create related sub-projects.
10:33:05 <sandro> fabien: we're trying to disturb the environment to create bubbles.   :-)    
10:33:32 <sandro> Topic: Linked Environment Data in Germany (Thomas Bandholtz) 
10:38:42 <sandro> bandholtz: Open Environment Data in the 90s
10:38:52 <sandro> ... Aarhus Convention 1998
10:39:06 <sandro> ... European Env. Agency (EEA) until 2002
10:39:25 <sandro> s/until 2002/
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10:39:57 <sandro> ... Environmental Agencies in Germany
10:41:12 <sandro> ... (slide 4)
10:42:09 <sandro> ... INSPIRE based on open geospacial consortium, nor RDF yet
10:42:21 <sandro> ... access to raw data in OGC feature service
10:43:26 <sandro> ... many public sector portals about water, soil, etc --- web pages, pdf, csv, xml of web services --- exhausting harmonization process 
10:44:31 <sandro> ... sub-clouds like Linked Open Drug Data, linked to dbpedia; we probably wont use dbpedia as the central ref point, but it looks like they will map to us.
10:45:03 <sandro> ... (slide 13)
10:45:57 <sandro> ... (slide 14)
10:46:51 <sandro> ... GEMET and EUNIS published as Linked Data by EEA
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10:47:41 <sandro> ... (slide 15)
10:51:05 <sandro> ... (slide 17 has involve rdf vocabs)
10:51:20 <sandro> ... SKOS, SKOS(XL) -- only stable/w3c
10:51:24 <sandro> ... Dublin Core
10:51:27 <sandro> ... geonames
10:51:36 <sandro> ... linked events ontology, for the chronicle
10:51:44 <sandro> ... Darwin Core (for species)
10:51:53 <sandro> ... SCOVO
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10:52:20 <sandro> fabien: I think there's a commercial version of geonames for more/better/current data
10:52:30 <timbl> With a different ontology?
10:53:06 <sandro> bandholtz: German govt has their own data, and the agency that owns the data wants to sell it.  There's a free version, but it doesn't include the polygons.
10:53:14 <timbl> q+ to OSM
10:53:30 <sandro> bandholtz: We us geograph names; we don't use maps; this river flows through these cities, one by one.
10:53:59 <sandro> bandholtz: sensor web, many developments to come
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10:54:19 <sandro> bandholtz: Darwin Core seemed to like the version I did of their work using SKOS.
10:54:56 <sandro> timbl: Have you looked at Open Street Map as a source of geospacial?
10:55:09 <sandro> timbl: is a LD mirror of it.
10:55:15 <sandro> bandholtz: I'll take a look at that.
10:55:36 <sandro> timbl: I'm told open streetmap is a better source of data than geonames
10:56:17 <sandro> bandholtz: We use SCOVO or env. specimen bank, and some extensions.   SDMX data came along.
10:56:54 <sandro> Jeni: We've looked at using SDMX -- just using the datacube part looks good, as a midpoint between SCOVO and SDMX. 
10:57:05 <sandro> bandholtz: We used the specialized subproperties of dimensin
10:57:09 <sandro> jeni: Yes
10:58:00 <sandro> bandholtz: In skos-xl, class literals, so you can link labels.
10:58:24 <sandro> bandholtz: inflectional forms of one word, extended properties of label class.
10:58:29 <timbl> For an RDF mapping see  
10:58:38 <sandro> bandholtz: you could talk about this for years, we never came to an end.
#10:58:38 <PhilA> s/skox-xl/skos-xl/
10:58:55 <sandro> bandholtz: (slide 18)
10:59:26 <sandro> bandholtz: SPARQL end points -- can easily give accidental Denial of Service attack.   :-)
10:59:57 <sandro> bandholtz: but providing SPARQL would be nice.
11:00:14 <sandro> bandholtz: authentication and access control would be good.
11:00:17 <timbl> (or a default limit =1000 for non-authenticated users)
11:01:07 <sandro> sandro: 4store includes a built-in resource limit, but default
11:01:32 <sandro> fabien: we built in a default limit, although that can confuse users who dont know about it.
11:01:46 <sandro> bandholtz: This is good advice
11:02:53 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
11:02:53 <RRSAgent> See
11:03:26 <sandro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:03:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate sandro
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13:09:22 <sandro> topic:
<sandro> scribe: jeni
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13:10:05 <JeniT> sandro: using same model as RDF Core Work Items list
13:10:28 <PhilA> Sandro: inspiration for methodology here is the RDF Core
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13:10:46 <JeniT> sandro: four categories for the work items
13:10:57 <JeniT> sandro: 1. helping deployment happen
13:11:11 <JeniT> sandro: 2. liaison items such as provenance & named graphs
13:11:30 <JeniT> sandro: 3. vocabulary items
13:11:54 <JeniT> sandro: 4. other technical development work items such as design patterns for URIs
13:12:22 <JeniT> sandro: promised charter by end of January
13:12:31 <JeniT> sandro: would mean start in April, running for two years
13:12:55 <JeniT> sandro: expect F2F meetings to be useful but hard for people to travel, so may try split F2F meetings
13:13:30 <JeniT> ... video conferencing between two places
13:13:57 <JeniT> ... to specific work items:
13:14:07 <JeniT> ... 2.1 Procurement Definitions
13:14:17 <JeniT> ... @johnlsheridan mentioned that this is an issue
13:14:58 <JeniT> ... having standardised definitions of terms/products to include this in ITTs etc
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13:15:47 <JeniT> PhilA: something that is very important for government procurement
13:16:15 <JeniT> ... similar to WCAG guidelines, governments can point to them and say 'you must produce according to these standards'
13:16:57 <JeniT> FabGandon: would this include success stories?
13:17:02 <JeniT> ... real scenarios?
13:17:13 <JeniT> Sandro: not in this piece
13:17:22 <JeniT> Sandro: beautiful license out of UK
13:17:35 <JeniT> ... could be understood as a human
13:17:44 <JeniT> ... is there something we can do internationally?
13:17:53 <JeniT> ... having a list of licenses used in different countries?
13:18:03 <JeniT> FabGandon: I've been using double licensing
13:18:38 <JeniT> ... RDFa/GRDDL profile was licensed LGPL and a french license
13:19:10 <JeniT> Sandro: yesterday Daniel talking about getting bicycle accident data
13:19:18 <JeniT> ... had to sign a paper license
13:19:31 <JeniT> ... included things to say that he had to keep his application up to date
13:19:54 <sandro> vocab for describing licenses
13:20:24 <sandro> sandro: let me query for datasources I;m allowed to use for my app
13:20:45 <JeniT> FabGandon: something to indicate where licenses are roughly equivalent
13:21:44 <sandro> jeni: maybe some recommendations about what makes a good license for gov data --- allowing reuse
13:22:08 <sandro> jeni: guidance for licenses which enable the right kind of use
13:22:27 <JeniT> Sandro: 5-10 page note maybe?
13:22:47 <JeniT> Sandro: is this W3C says this or just the working group says this?
13:23:01 <JeniT> PhilA: be hard to have a recommendation for licenses
13:23:14 <JeniT> ... but a recommendation carries more weight
13:23:48 <JeniT> ... how would you include two independent implementations?
13:23:58 <JeniT> Sandro: two governments that follow the practices
13:24:40 <JeniT> ... might make sense to have it as one of several points within a recommendation
13:24:57 <JeniT> ... need the WG to work out what granularity of documents they want
13:25:03 <JeniT> Sandro: 2.3 Community Survey
13:25:14 <JeniT> ... self-sustaining database of vendors
13:25:25 <JeniT> PhilA: would this include apps that use the data?
13:25:38 <JeniT> Sandro: wasn't thinking so but data consuming systems would be good
13:25:47 <JeniT> ... the hardest part is to make it self-sustaining
13:26:11 <JeniT> FabGandon: only example that comes to mind is Semantic Web Tool Wiki page
13:26:19 <JeniT> ... but you're talking about a real database
13:26:31 <JeniT> Sandro: it could be a wiki page, but there are some people who aren't happy with that
13:26:39 <JeniT> ... would give WG freedom to decide how to do it
13:27:38 <JeniT> PhilA: why do you care that this gets done?
13:27:39 <sandro> sandro: it's more important that this is done than that ie be a demo.
13:28:00 <JeniT> PhilA: about the whole government linked data thing
13:28:12 <JeniT> Sandro: got a very enthusiastic yes from the AC
13:28:38 <JeniT> PhilA: building community is very important
13:28:42 <JeniT> ... how far does it go?
13:28:51 <JeniT> ... it's hard to keep it coherent and up to date
13:29:01 <JeniT> ... high hurdle for WGs
13:29:06 <JeniT> Sandro: these lists tend to atrophy
13:29:23 <JeniT> FabGandon: only successful example is this wiki page, because it survived the group that started it
13:29:43 <JeniT> Sandro: even if it doesn't survive the group, the list working for a year or two would be very useful
13:29:49 <JeniT> PhilA: certainly as the group is going
13:30:10 <sandro> jeni: make it be a resource for the WG as it's runnig.
13:30:26 <JeniT> Sandro: would hope that it could aim to be potentially self-sustaining
13:31:05 <sandro> jeni: It should be a success just to have it run during the live of the wg.
13:31:15 <JeniT> PhilA: would hope that at the end someone would want to pick it up and continue with it, but it would not be a failure of the WG if that didn't happen
13:31:28 <JeniT> Sandro: maybe the mediawiki solution is good enough in that case
13:31:42 <JeniT> ... fairly dogfoody, even if RDF is not very linked data
13:32:19 <JeniT> ... helps us make sure that we know who to ping to try to get public review of our specs
13:32:28 <JeniT> ... and is useful to the communities
13:32:36 <JeniT> Sandro: 2.4 Cookbook or Storybook
13:32:48 <JeniT> FabGandon: yes, scenarios and success stories
13:33:09 <JeniT> ... when I talk to people in public sector, as a researcher they think everything I say is science fiction
13:33:22 <JeniT> ... I want a place to point them
13:33:34 <JeniT> PhilA: would that be the equivalent of a use cases document?
13:33:50 <JeniT> FabGandon: use cases aren't always implemented, scenarios are things that are already deployed
13:33:59 <JeniT> ... using UK a lot for this
13:34:13 <JeniT> PhilA: but this would be early input to the group
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13:34:35 <JeniT> FabGandon: making them visible in a document gives me something to point to
13:34:45 <JeniT> ... there are best practices
13:34:50 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:34:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate PhilA
13:35:03 <JeniT> Sandro: use cases tend to abstract from scenarios
13:35:20 <JeniT> FabGandon: GRDDL use cases were a fiction
13:35:33 <JeniT> PhilA: I'm expecting WG to come up with best practices and recommendations
13:35:43 <JeniT> ... need to have scenarios as input for that
13:35:50 <JeniT> ... same function as use cases
13:36:04 <JeniT> Sandro: a product of WG is to have gathered a collection
13:36:17 <JeniT> ... could be written by people associated with scenarios, if we can get them to do it
13:36:33 <JeniT> ... not sure about stories about failures
13:36:57 <JeniT> PhilA: having stories about failure are really useful
13:37:12 <JeniT> ... being able to talk about failures in a constructive way
13:37:20 <JeniT> Sandro: may be hard to do that in published writing
13:37:24 <JeniT> ... but worth a try
13:37:32 <JeniT> Sandro: 3.1 Provenance
13:37:43 <JeniT> ... been incubator running for a year
13:37:48 <JeniT> ... final year is going to recommend WG
13:37:54 <JeniT> ... suspect that there will be one in the next 6 months
13:38:04 <JeniT> ... this group interacting with that group would be useful
13:38:12 <JeniT> Sandro: 3.2 Named Graphs
13:38:18 <JeniT> ... similarly, this interacts with provenance
13:38:28 <JeniT> Sandro: 3.3 POI WG
13:38:39 <JeniT> ... not sure how much government geography is addressed by this
13:38:48 <JeniT> ... think it's just going to be lat/long + polygons
13:38:57 <JeniT> PhilA: I ran workshop that led to POI WG
13:39:10 <JeniT> ... going to be struggle to get them to acknowledge linked data exists
13:39:27 <JeniT> ... one guy from DERI trying to get them to think about it
13:39:38 <JeniT> ... augmented reality main group
13:39:51 <JeniT> ... will need active steering to ensure liaison
13:39:58 <JeniT> Sandro: need a person in both groups
13:40:08 <JeniT> ... I was being optimistic about RDF vocabulary
13:40:14 <JeniT> PhilA: yes, very
13:40:31 <JeniT> ... as interested in moving objects as static
13:40:43 <JeniT> ... and motion in relative direction
13:41:09 <JeniT> Sandro: in worst case, someone could take formal model and map to RDF
13:41:34 <JeniT> Sandro: probably other liaisons I've forgotten
13:41:38 <JeniT> ... SPARQL?
13:41:51 <JeniT> ... don't know exactly what dependency looks like
13:42:07 <JeniT> ... are there any outside of W3C?
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13:42:16 <JeniT> ... organisations doing some close to GLD?
13:42:47 <JeniT> PhilA: need people from from different countries
13:42:54 <JeniT> Sandro: hoping that they get involved in the working group
13:43:01 <JeniT> ... thinking about peer organisations
13:43:16 <JeniT> ... normally have standards, vendors & other standards bodies
13:43:43 <JeniT> FabGandon: wonder if relying on local offices to synchronise locally
13:43:54 <JeniT> ... W3C office in Paris will be good point of synchronisation
13:44:11 <JeniT> ... of communicating, diffusing, making sure right people are aware
13:44:17 <JeniT> PhilA: not just national governments
13:44:30 <JeniT> ... colleague talking to Helsinki, Berlin, city authorities
13:44:37 <JeniT> ... not just national governments, but local ones as well
13:45:34 <JeniT> Sandro: check with OASIS and OMG and usual suspects
13:45:51 <JeniT> Thomas: INSPIRE and OGC?
13:46:07 <JeniT> ... they are doing something not so different, but with URNs and XML
13:46:30 <JeniT> ... someone would have to write a technical spec for RDF
13:46:39 <JeniT> Sandro: is there funding available if someone has the skills to do it?
13:46:55 <JeniT> Thomas: it's a EU directive, and each government has people who are working on it
13:47:07 <JeniT> Sandro: seems like the kind of thing that a university might do
13:48:02 <JeniT> Sandro: is it a good model that anyone else might be interested in?
13:48:09 <PhilA> Jeni: Stuart Williams is working with the UK end of INSPIRE to do some mapping of the object modles into RDF
13:48:17 <JeniT> Thomas: harmonising on what each member should provide on each topic
13:48:22 <JeniT> ... they have a dozen themes
13:48:32 <JeniT> ... mandatory data items on each theme
13:48:39 <PhilA> Stuart Williams, formerly of HP, TAG member, now at Epimorphics, Bristol-based Sem Web consultancy
13:48:43 <JeniT> ... we shouldn't care about domain-specific things
13:49:01 <JeniT> ... we could get a huge mass of more data if we mapped into RDF
13:49:08 <JeniT> ... get a lot of benefits from organisational power of INSPIRE
13:49:17 <JeniT> PhilA: the one bit of data that sticks in my head
13:49:25 <JeniT> ... is target for implementation is 2018
13:49:31 <JeniT> ... so don't want to depend on INSPIRE
13:49:36 <JeniT> ... this group would inspire INSPIRE
13:49:49 <JeniT> ... W3C is known to be slow, but we're faster than that!
13:50:01 <sandro> OGC
13:50:01 <JeniT> Thomas: there are many agencies publishing data using OGC services
13:50:21 <JeniT> ... maybe better to talk about SDI
13:50:30 <sandro> spacial data infrastructure
13:50:41 <JeniT> ... they have a G (Global) SDI conference every year
13:50:50 <JeniT> ... have questions about how to publish this in RDF
13:50:56 <JeniT> ... all fragmentary contributions
13:51:04 <JeniT> ... would be a different level
13:51:12 <JeniT> ... they have a catalogue service web, like DCAT
13:51:23 <JeniT> Sandro: is OGC a reasonable way to interact with them?
13:51:27 <JeniT> ... they are W3C members
13:51:38 <JeniT> ... we might be able to get them to participate in a liaison capacity
13:52:00 <JeniT> Thomas: geoSPARQL is one of these topics
13:52:09 <JeniT> ... encoding of sensor observation services in RDF
13:52:15 <JeniT> ... these are ongoing activities
13:52:22 <JeniT> ... not specific for government, but INSPIRE is
13:52:39 <JeniT> Sandro: every nation has a lot of legal issues around geographical information
13:52:52 <JeniT> Thomas: this is one of the things, that you describe the data that you will sell
13:53:04 <JeniT> ... I used to talk about linked data
13:53:26 <JeniT> ... not talking about LOD any more, because we shouldn't exclude non-open data
13:53:47 <JeniT> FabGandon: And accessing the data from my company I have access to things on the intranet
13:54:07 <JeniT> Sandro: these are good pointers, but I'm not sure what it makes sure to do in this charter
13:54:17 <JeniT> ... my thought was that POI would take care of it, but I guess not
13:55:31 <JeniT> JeniT: feels like a rat hole
#13:55:40 <MacTed> (I'm concerned every time I see a line like "I used to talk about linked data, but I don't talk about LOD anymore" because "Linked Data" is bigger than "LOD" ... so I hope you [Thomas] still talk about "Linked Data" which absolutely includes non-open data)
13:55:46 <JeniT> Sandro: we can make it in scope, out of scope, or get the WG to decide
13:56:11 <JeniT> FabGandon: think it's difficult to rule out geographic data in a government data charter
13:56:19 <JeniT> ... so many scenarios where you need geographical data
13:56:27 <JeniT> PhilA: some liaison would be useful
13:56:57 <JeniT> ... 'we will liaise with POI WG, and be aware of other work going on in this area, but not core duty of GLD WG to codify'
13:57:13 <JeniT> FabGandon: going to be the same with temporal data representation
13:57:29 <JeniT> ... want to say that 'this data is only valid for this financial year'
13:57:32 <JeniT> ... another rat hole
13:57:40 <sandro> PhilA: "We think this is important, and we'll liaise, but we wont develop a vocab for geo"
13:57:51 <JeniT> ... good part is that you don't have proprietary aspects
13:58:06 <JeniT> ... again needs liaison with people in time data
13:58:23 <JeniT> PhilA: this is relevant for POI, because important in crisis management
13:58:45 <JeniT> FabGandon: we have someone who may be involved in this aspect
13:59:23 <JeniT> Sandro: The next two groups were vocabulary and non-vocabulary technical items
13:59:34 <JeniT> ... I had some idea of doing vocabularies later, but let's proceed in order
14:00:02 <JeniT> ... TimBL at dinner last night said something...
14:00:21 <JeniT> ... I had always envisioned that W3C would write the vocabulary, document it and so on
14:00:43 <JeniT> ... but TimBL said that if foaf:name is what people should use, we can say in the W3C Recommendation that that's what people should use
14:00:56 <JeniT> ... but we could set a bar for what we mean for a 3rd party vocabulary
14:01:02 <JeniT> ... and if FOAF can get over that bar
14:01:04 <JeniT> ... then that's fine
14:01:11 <JeniT> PhilA: we wanted to use FOAF
14:01:26 <JeniT> ... and if DanBrickley goes under a bus, the server goes with him
14:01:32 <JeniT> ... (this is in POWDER)
14:01:43 <JeniT> ... got around it by using Dublin Core
14:01:57 <JeniT> ... we had conversations for ages about this, about how FOAF could become more stable
14:02:02 <JeniT> ... doesn't have an organisation behind it
14:02:07 <JeniT> ... could W3C manage it? no
14:02:29 <sandro> jeni: I think there are some important things here, around check boxes for what vocabs we will trust.   
14:03:06 <sandro> ... lots of stuff around the org behind it, documented policy on change control, ...   it would be useful to document these up front.  THESE ARE THE THINGS WE EXPECT A GOOD VOCAB TO DO.
14:03:23 <JeniT> Sandro: going meta, aside from the terms that we recommend...
14:03:30 <JeniT> ... this is going to be useful for Governments as well
14:03:41 <JeniT> ... to help Governments to identify which vocabularies they can use
14:03:56 <JeniT> ... could be GLD or could come from somewhere else
14:04:43 <sandro> jeni; Wider LD cloud might not care so much about stability.   Academic projects don't mind so much.
14:04:56 <sandro> fabien: France wont use schemas of the UK.
14:05:07 <JeniT> PhilA: going to be a problem all over
14:05:13 <JeniT> ... W3C isn't designed to manage vocabularies
14:05:19 <JeniT> FabGandon: scalability problems as well
14:05:25 <JeniT> ... only standardise what's domain independent
14:05:29 <JeniT> ... can standardise provenance
14:05:37 <JeniT> ... cannot standardise biology ontology
14:05:43 <JeniT> ... this changes things a little bit
14:05:58 <JeniT> ... here we're crossing that line a bit
14:06:17 <JeniT> Thomas: we don't have to standardise geographical vocabulary, just specifying serialisation
14:06:34 <JeniT> FabGandon: there could be a well-known XML vocabulary, just provide RDFS version
14:06:41 <JeniT> PhilA: I think purls provide the way out of this
14:06:49 <JeniT> ... if it can't be on
14:06:58 <JeniT> Sandro: I wouldn't say it can't be on
14:07:05 <JeniT> ... there's the organisation vocabulary
14:07:51 <JeniT> ... @der42 approached TimBL to host it
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14:08:04 <JeniT> ... there's a maintenance headache that comes with that
14:08:14 <JeniT> ... this is something TimBLs been pushing a long time
14:08:25 <JeniT> ... I've been pushing this for a long time too
14:09:12 <JeniT> PhilA: the person to convince is Ted Guild
#14:10:36 <PhilA> s/Gild/Guild/
14:10:39 <JeniT> Sandro: vocabulary hosting in general is a huge issue for governments
14:10:48 <JeniT> FabGandon: more important than in any other domain
14:11:12 <JeniT> Sandro: I've been advocating that someone like IBM should get into the vocabulary hosting business
14:11:27 <JeniT> PhilA: same issue with Talis hosting it: we're a commercial company!
14:11:33 <JeniT> Sandro: so you get what you pay for
14:12:19 <JeniT> ... could pay a company to host it for a period of time
14:12:30 <JeniT> PhilA: we would host the stuff with a purl pointing to it
14:12:47 <JeniT> ... the purl points somewhere else if Talis goes under a bus
14:12:53 <JeniT> Sandro: I would say domain name per vocabulary
14:13:01 <JeniT> ... rather than xmlns whatever it is
14:13:17 <JeniT> ... that gives the most flexibility
14:13:28 <JeniT> PhilA: or whatever
14:13:39 <JeniT> Sandro: but then you bind together several vocabularies in one organisation
14:13:52 <JeniT> ... if they are controlled by different people then you don't want them on the same domain name
14:14:01 <JeniT> PhilA: it's an issue because of neutrality
14:14:05 <JeniT> ... FOAF is a good example
14:14:19 <JeniT> Sandro: were you serious, Fabien, when you said that France wouldn't use any UK vocabularies?
14:14:29 <JeniT> FabGandon: I haven't checked, I know the reaction about hosting the data
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14:14:50 <JeniT> ... wouldn't be surprised if French objected
14:15:02 <JeniT> ... issue with internationalisation as well
14:15:16 <JeniT> Sandro: would hope that any vocabulary provider would accept translations
14:15:26 <JeniT> PhilA: but who guarantees translation is accurate
14:15:42 <JeniT> FabGandon: in EU, have whole process of maintaining translation of different documents
14:16:09 <JeniT> PhilA: if you had a vocabulary that had anything but a .com, .org ending...
14:16:16 <JeniT> ... no way Americans would accept that
14:16:49 <JeniT> Sandro: end up using .com, .org or .net for the vocabularies
14:17:06 <JeniT> Sandro: 4.1 Metadata for Data Catalogs
14:17:14 <JeniT> ... no brainer that we want to move along DCAT in this group
14:17:29 <JeniT> ... had an interest group telecon with @cygri
14:17:40 <JeniT> ... wanted to spin off taskforce to do it
14:18:00 <JeniT> ... had large group that quickly dwindled
14:18:11 <JeniT> ... stopped entirely when Semtech came around, and didn't start up again
14:18:18 <JeniT> ... lots of interest there
14:18:38 <JeniT> ... big question is does it end up as WG Note, as a Recommendation, as a pointer to something else?
#14:18:42 <JeniT> s/bit/big
14:18:49 <JeniT> FabGandon: how specific is it to eGov?
14:18:59 <JeniT> Sandro: right now taskforce in eGov IG
14:19:23 <JeniT> ... in doing taskforce charter
14:19:34 <JeniT> ... said clearly applicable beyond government
14:19:42 <JeniT> ... but let's take narrower scope for now
14:20:01 <JeniT> ... can see that it could be broader
14:20:07 <JeniT> FabGandon: it could even be a task of the new RDF WG
14:20:14 <JeniT> Sandro: I think it's too late to go there now
14:20:20 <JeniT> ... or in the provenance WG
14:20:35 <JeniT> ... someone asked what's the difference between provenance and DCAT
14:20:49 <PhilA> xLooking at
14:21:01 <JeniT> PhilA: one thing that is missing is refresh rate
14:21:21 <JeniT> JeniT: think that's part of VoiD
14:21:29 <JeniT> PhilA: ah right
14:21:37 <sandro>
14:21:43 <JeniT> ... Alex Tucker has done RDF dump of CKAN data
14:22:02 <JeniT> Sandro: Wiki page includes use cases, deliverables, minutes and participants: 28 participants
14:22:12 <JeniT> ... huge amount of interest
14:22:29 <JeniT> ... reminded that Thomas was listening
14:22:38 <JeniT> Thomas: got a little bit bored...
14:22:49 <JeniT> ... did so much work on data catalogs in Germany...
14:23:01 <JeniT> ... ended up disappointing because no one used it
14:23:15 <JeniT> ... idea of having one data catalog as an access point is not a priority
14:23:24 <JeniT> ... in linked data domain discovery is following links
14:23:30 <JeniT> ... not looking at catalogs
14:23:40 <JeniT> ... it's OK, we need it, but...
14:23:52 <JeniT> Sandro: you don't need 28 people to design a vocabulary
14:23:59 <JeniT> ... you want 3 people to do the work, and wide review
14:24:09 <JeniT> ... you don't want big telecons with everyone who cares
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14:24:18 <JeniT> ... in general that's going to be true
14:24:35 <JeniT> ... sometimes there will be issues that you want discussion for, but a lot is design by a small group
14:24:48 <JeniT> PhilA: I still think in terms of best practice document
14:24:59 <JeniT> ... say 'use DCAT and VoiD to describe your catalog'
14:25:08 <JeniT> Thomas: how is VoiD involved?
14:25:20 <JeniT> Sandro: DCAT can be for non-RDF data, VoiD for RDF data
14:26:11 <sandro> jeni: Some vocab (dcat) is about EVERY data set, and then some other vocabs are for certain kinds of data (eg geo about geo data, void about RDF data)
14:26:45 <sandro> PhilA: Neither void nor dcat covers refresh rate.
14:27:07 <JeniT> Sandro: I've never heard anyone assess quality or suitability of VoiD
14:27:11 <JeniT> ... only game in town
14:27:58 <JeniT> ... if we're going to recommend a vocabulary, in a recommendation
14:28:05 <JeniT> ... then we need implementation experience
14:28:10 <JeniT> ... which includes going through to consumers
14:28:19 <JeniT> Thomas: VoiD has been designed without DCAT in mind
14:28:27 <JeniT> ... so didn't care about separation of concerns
14:28:36 <JeniT> ... I think someone has to make a new version of VoiD, to fit in
14:29:16 <JeniT> Sandro: we could ask @cygri whether he thinks a new version of VoiD is needed
14:29:27 <JeniT> ... another thing on DCAT is I don't know how it relates to CKAN
14:29:40 <JeniT> ... I don't know how happy CKAN were with it
14:30:04 <JeniT> ... another force in play is the Sunlight Foundation in the US
14:30:18 <JeniT> ... they have done national data catalog that combines Federal, State and Local levels
14:30:48 <JeniT> JeniT: do you need input about what to put in the charter?
14:31:01 <JeniT> Sandro: I feel we should say a W3C Recommended vocabulary along the lines of DCAT
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14:31:27 <JeniT> PhilA: so the group would create and maintain the vocabulary
14:31:48 <JeniT> Sandro: I think DCAT should enable multiple catalogs, for a decentralised system
14:32:15 <JeniT> ... each data source should describe itself using DCAT
#14:32:24 <sandro> s/catalog/data source/
14:33:49 <JeniT> JeniT: there's the set of terms (Dublin Core + DCAT + VoiD etc) and the namespace for DCAT
14:34:19 <JeniT> FabGandon: when you look at FOAF, FOAFomatic really helped encourage its use
14:34:36 <JeniT> Sandro: OKFN has a form where they're asking people to fill out questionnaire about their government data
14:34:43 <JeniT> ... be nice if it gave back RDF
14:35:14 <JeniT> PhilA: keen to do outreach as well
14:35:20 <JeniT> ... ideally as part of this working group
14:35:26 <JeniT> ... important part of the implementation
14:35:58 <JeniT> Sandro: OK, add under Procurement Assistance
14:36:10 <JeniT> BREAK TIME UNTIL 16:00
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15:05:09 <FabGandon> scribe: FabGandon
15:05:50 <FabGandon>   resuming on vocabularies.
15:06:06 <FabGandon> ... JeniT: what are the next stages?
15:06:54 <FabGandon> Sandro: next stage is identify what can be done within the WG charter/timespan/force
15:07:44 <FabGandon> ... avoid shoot for too little or too much.
15:08:05 <FabGandon> ... identify what can be done in other TF / WG.
15:08:37 <FabGandon> ... for vocs we could work on the basis of having an identified editor for each voc.
15:08:50 <sandro> sandro: maybe the vocabs will each be time-permitting / nice-to-have
15:09:04 <JeniT>
15:09:06 <FabGandon> JeniT: Organization Ontology
15:10:00 <sandro> JeniT: foaf and vcard exist
15:10:10 <FabGandon> ... Dave Reynolds put that together because nothing was putting togerther what we needed about Org.
15:10:30 <FabGandon> ... so we took that and extended that for UK gov.
15:11:03 <FabGandon> Sandro: this is reusable in other organizations.
15:11:32 <FabGandon> PhilA: very UK centric.
15:11:57 <FabGandon> Sandro: this should be blessed by W3C for others to use
15:12:13 <FabGandon> PhilA: an schema :-)
15:13:20 <martin> In Spain, we use it, and it was OK for our purpose (city council and departments)
15:13:21 <FabGandon> JeniT: change event is used to capture a change in an Organization, it is hook
15:13:31 <sandro> JeniT: changeEvent hook for saying org1+org2 => org3
15:14:22 <FabGandon> tban: very useful to follow changes in structures and names, acronyms, etc.
#15:14:37 <sandro> s/Vagner-br/TB/
15:14:49 <FabGandon> PhilA: does your national library archives web sites?
15:15:46 <JeniT> FabGandon: In France, we have law that says we must archive every French official media channel
15:15:51 <JeniT> ... and we don't know how to do that
15:16:45 <FabGandon> Sandro: question of ontology engineering process and the way to go for a new voc.
15:17:22 <FabGandon> tban: I wouldn't use UML, this is not object-oriented work
15:17:33 <FabGandon> ... I use TopBraid composer
15:17:57 <FabGandon> ... nice figures. 
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15:18:38 <FabGandon> ... Richard came up with SDMX but not enough sem. web oriented.
15:19:38 <FabGandon> JeniT: we work with Richard on that because SDMX is important in the statitician community
15:19:57 <sandro> jeni: ONS used SDMX already, so it was opportunistic for us to use it.
15:20:27 <FabGandon> ... SDMX is hard but may be necessary.
15:21:02 <FabGandon> Sandro: we haven't solve the evolution story of how we move from a voc to the next.
15:21:49 <FabGandon> JeniT: also hard to know when a voc is stable enough to be really used.
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15:22:17 <FabGandon> ... check list of what you expect from a voc.
15:22:26 <sandro> jeni: checklist item: have documentation which is good, have ref guide, examples, etc
15:22:48 <FabGandon> ... e.g. it must have ref guide, examples, managed by an org with a longevity, etc.
15:23:19 <FabGandon> PhilA: for FOAF for instance the longevity of the domain is a problem.
15:24:17 <JeniT> FabGandon: reading through the minutes yesterday, there's a good thing happening in eGov in that we have very stable bodies involved
15:24:24 <JeniT> ... INRIA is a government institute
15:24:35 <JeniT> ... so we have hosting that is very stable
15:24:42 <JeniT> ... people believe we will continue to exist
15:25:03 <JeniT> ... won't want to use a namespace hosted by the UK
15:25:20 <JeniT> ... but one hosted by a government would have longevity
15:25:46 <JeniT> ... We tried several things, including knowledge engineering approach
15:25:55 <JeniT> ... tried VoCamp approach, where people come with a need for a vocabulary
15:26:01 <JeniT> ... break up in small groups and hack
15:26:07 <JeniT> ... some of these were successful
15:26:20 <sandro> FabGandon: We tried Knowledge Engineering - limits, VoCamp fairly successful, ... 
15:26:28 <JeniT> ... depends on scope of vocabulary
15:26:45 <FabGandon> Sandro: this a question for the chairs and the group.
15:26:54 <FabGandon> ... any other org ontology.
15:27:04 <FabGandon> JeniT: there is a blog post from Dave
15:27:11 <sandro> sandro: I'll just link to DER's blog post, with its references
15:27:25 <JeniT>
15:28:00 <sandro> bandholtz: what about sameAs inflation?
15:28:09 <FabGandon> tban: the inflation of sameAs, and misuse of sameAs.
15:28:34 <FabGandon> ... I wouldn't sameAs, but what else.
15:28:59 <sandro> bandholtz: mapping vocab like skos but without inferring it's a skos concept.
15:29:45 <JeniT> FabGandon: subClassOf subPropertyOf also used in alignment
15:29:53 <FabGandon> ... provide a mapping voc with only properties and no classes to avoid inferences
15:30:17 <sandro> sandro: bad sameAs is just bad data
15:30:54 <sandro> FabGandon: in datalift, we are thinking about how to do mapping, from sameAs onto procedural declaration.
15:31:31 <sandro> FabGandon: okaam huge eu project on this -- efficient sameAs resolution for semweb.    give uri, it gives back ones which might be equivalent.
15:31:59 <sandro> FabGandon: (let's stay away from this...)
15:32:21 <FabGandon>
15:33:40 <FabGandon> tban: when we try to link e.g GEMET and German Thesaurus we need the same in SKOS without domain and range. 
15:35:29 <sandro> jeni: a school is not a skos:Concept according to the SKOS spec
15:35:36 <sandro> sandro: skos is just broken.  :-(
15:36:10 <FabGandon> JeniT: same name for a local authority vs. the area
15:36:41 <FabGandon> Sandro: you need to formalize properly.
15:37:31 <FabGandon> tban: we should include the problems aboout alignment to be discussed in the charter
15:39:28 <FabGandon> JeniT: if RDF 1.1 don't want to do it we have to come up with a convincing scenario
15:40:22 <FabGandon> Sandro: the key thing for people is to see if we can stabilize FOAF.
15:40:26 <sandro> jeni: important to understand how foaf works with vcard
15:40:53 <FabGandon> tban: what about foaf+ssl?
15:41:20 <FabGandon> JeniT: I wondered if we should include something about identitity in the eGov WG.
15:42:04 <sandro> 4.4 Statistical/Data Cube Datasets 
15:42:23 <FabGandon> sandro: statistical, so far there is a sub-set of SDMX
15:42:32 <sandro> sandro: I'm hearing there's a subset of SDMX, cube, that's pretty good.
15:42:38 <JeniT>
15:42:48 <sandro> PhilA: It's good for describing what you see in CSVs.
15:43:02 <FabGandon> PhilA: the cube ontology is good to describe the sort of data you find in CSV file.
15:43:55 <FabGandon> JeniT: Cube comes from the hypercube structure of the data.
15:44:09 <FabGandon> JeniT: an observation is a cell in the cube
15:44:27 <FabGandon> ... each dataset is described by a dataset def
15:45:38 <FabGandon> ... for statistical data, payment data, etc. any thing you put in a Spreadsheet
15:45:49 <FabGandon> ... we use it a lot
15:47:03 <FabGandon> sandro: how can be sure this meets most needs?
15:47:33 <sandro> sandro: if we make this a Rec, who might object?      Among people who buy into SDMX & RDF already....
15:48:03 <sandro> PhilA: Statisticians might find this reduces too much.
15:48:32 <FabGandon> Sandro: if we need more of SDMX can we extend it?
15:48:44 <sandro> Jeni: that was the goal, yes.
15:48:48 <FabGandon> JeniT: yes it was designed to be extended
15:49:07 <FabGandon> tban: we use it for measurment data
15:50:11 <FabGandon> JeniT: we wanted to publish statistic for a larger audience than the statistician community
15:50:37 <FabGandon> sandro: if we want to change these schema, how do we do that? what would be the process?
15:51:02 <FabGandon> JeniT: feel free to take it !
15:51:43 <FabGandon> sandro: it rare that somebody does this kind of work and does follow it as an editor of the Rec.
15:52:12 <FabGandon> sandro: Data Cube seems important.
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15:52:58 <sandro> [edit] 4.5 Data Quality, Timeliness, Status 
15:53:48 <FabGandon> JeniT: I am sure that voiD as something about temporal validity
15:53:50 <sandro> jeni: we use dc:temporal for expressing the temporal range for which the data is true
15:54:03 <FabGandon> ... we have our own small voc for that
15:54:09 <sandro> jeni: we use our own for draft-ness
15:54:15 <FabGandon> ... nothing on data quality at the moment
15:54:28 <FabGandon> PhilA: can't find this in voiD
15:54:38 <FabGandon> JeniT: in must be in RSS then
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15:55:04 <sandro> PhilA: Who is responsible for cleaning it up?   Who will update it, and when?
15:55:11 <FabGandon> PhilA: need to know if the data I am using now will be here tomorrow
15:55:19 <sandro> PhilA: Ooften the data comes from screen-scraping!
15:55:27 <FabGandon> ... need to know how often data updated
15:55:52 <sandro> FabGandon: This is in Provenance -- an expiration
15:56:23 <FabGandon> JeniT: this is new work probably
15:56:27 <sandro> JeniT: I think this is new work, much less baked than data cube
15:56:50 <FabGandon> sandro: the WG could provide such voc.
15:57:04 <FabGandon> JeniT: it fits under dcat
15:57:05 <sandro> jeni: This goes under dcat -- it applies to data sets.
15:57:42 <sandro> FabGandon: Granularity might be small -- some bit of the data changes often, some bit doesn't.
15:59:10 <sandro> FabGandon: this might not be about the dataset, it might be about one subgraph within the dataset.
15:59:49 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate PhilA
16:00:05 <sandro> bandholtz: In the Gazettier, when we have changes in communities, merging, the official service just drops the old communities.    We don't drop them, we mark them expired.
16:00:16 <sandro> bandholtz: dcat should describe your policies about such things.
16:00:22 <FabGandon> tban: the policy should be also described on the dcat level.
16:01:18 <FabGandon> sandro: the granularity problem might be more general with dcat and dataset.
16:01:37 <FabGandon> ... granularity can be a political game.
16:02:36 <sandro> sandro: so if dcat can handle the gran. then this can be folded in.
16:02:52 <sandro> 4.6 Assumptions/Basis/Comparability of Data
16:03:17 <FabGandon> JeniT: we need to know if we can compare two values.
16:03:22 <sandro> jeni: In statistical data they really care if you can compare two values, because defn of some bit in your data changed.
16:03:26 <FabGandon> ... e.g. after a policy change.
16:04:09 <sandro> JeniT: annotate a qb:observation to say this is not comparable, etc.
16:04:28 <sandro> JeniT: Vocab for classiying these kinds of annotations
16:04:36 <FabGandon> PhilA: we have a 10 month data vs. an 11 month data
16:04:53 <FabGandon> tban: different methods in differents countries.
16:04:55 <sandro> bandholtz: lining maps up between country, INSPIRE Harmonization effort.
16:05:33 <sandro> FabGandon: The notion of an unemployed person in France is totally different than in some other countries -- not comparable.
16:05:55 <FabGandon> JeniT: encourage people to use different terms when they use different notions
16:06:01 <sandro> JeniT: Sometime you just mean datafr:unemployment has a different URI than datauk:unemployment
16:06:27 <FabGandon> ... there may be some matches but when we use the same URI it IS the same thing
16:06:50 <sandro> JeniT: this is more about same vocab, same dimension, ...    this is to annotate where it's different.
16:07:45 <FabGandon> JeniT: at least we should be able to say "this is a statement about comparability".
16:08:03 <sandro> JeniT: This is for categories of ways to annotate observations.
16:08:22 <FabGandon> tban: using different URIs is different from using different terms.
16:09:15 <FabGandon> sandro: no candidate voc on that right now?
16:09:16 <JeniT>
16:09:33 <FabGandon> JeniT: some of the SDMX voc may be relevant
16:09:55 <FabGandon> ... Dave has mapped those onto a voc which could be a candidate
16:10:15 <JeniT>
16:10:56 <sandro> [edit] 4.7 Describing Visualization and Presentation 
16:11:10 <sandro> fresnel
16:11:40 <FabGandon>
16:12:36 <sandro> sandro: not hearing a lot of interest/experience on this one.
16:12:45 <sandro> FabGandon: Fresnel has a huge potential
16:13:46 <FabGandon> sandro: design pattern for URIs
16:13:53 <sandro> 5.1 Design Patterns for URIs 
16:14:12 <FabGandon> JeniT: updated version:
16:14:22 <JeniT>
16:14:41 <FabGandon> ... it takes a different kind of angle.
16:16:02 <FabGandon> sandro: huge design space, how much we want to expand or focus the design space
16:16:33 <FabGandon> ... should we give all the options or pescribe some good practices?
16:16:45 <sandro> PhilA: use of id, 303 to doc, SHOULD be in LD
16:17:07 <PhilA> I mean - the pattern breaks down as
16:17:11 <sandro> JeniT: sayig do 4.2 from coolURIs
16:17:39 <PhilA> {sector}{department}/unique_identifier
16:18:02 <FabGandon> JeniT: sometimes the pattern does work well
16:18:23 <PhilA> If you dereference that, the /id/ gets replaced by /doc/ as part of the HTTP 303 (see other) response, and that leads to a document that describes the original identified thing
16:18:27 <sandro> JeniT: Although that pattern works really well in some circumstances, it doesnt for others.      eg for the people in the org structures, we dont have a good URI pattern.    so we end up using hash URIs in the datasets, thinking they might be linked up later.
16:18:32 <FabGandon> ... we used # URIs depending on the dataset.
16:18:44 <sandro> JeniT: just using pattern 4.2 doesn't always work well.
16:18:46 <FabGandon> ... not simple to just say use that pattern.
16:20:02 <sandro> FabGandon: need keys  :-
16:20:06 <sandro> FabGandon: need keys  :-)
16:20:19 <sandro> sandro: Just get everyone to mint URIs for themselves  :-)
16:20:40 <FabGandon> tban: the original URL of TimBL also described what you should not do.
16:21:15 <sandro> bandholtz: '98 cool uris, don't put classifications/datatypes into URI, or other things that would make them change.
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16:22:20 <sandro> FabGandon: Don't forget there are scenarios where you want to do the opposite -- to anonymous people.
16:23:56 <sandro> bandholtz: I've come to prefer totally opaque URIs.
16:23:59 <FabGandon> tban: generally I prefer URI that don't tell anything by themselves
16:24:54 <FabGandon> sandro: what should we do?
16:25:11 <JeniT> FabGandon: it could be 'follow the guidelines of the LOD group'
16:25:27 <FabGandon> sandro: one output could be follow 4.2
16:25:59 <sandro> sandro: maybe a flowchart, even!
16:26:28 <sandro> JeniT: I found we needed design patterns not just for schools, but also for vocabs, concept schemes, datasets.
16:26:34 <FabGandon> JeniT: we also need design patterns for URIs for schemas
16:27:47 <FabGandon> sandro: versioning of dataset crosses with the temporal point before.
16:29:12 <sandro> sandro: shoud I fold this into designing-URI, or timeliness vocab ?
16:29:32 <FabGandon> tban: what does versioning mean here, e.g. statiscal data changes every year
16:29:33 <sandro> bandholtz: Every year has year more --- discussion of versioning.
16:29:44 <sandro> bandholtz: verionsing of vocab, too.
16:29:59 <sandro> Jeni: how you design URIs, how you design the data....
16:30:37 <sandro> 5.3 Change Propagation and Notification 
16:30:50 <sandro> dady -- dataset dynamic
16:31:16 <sandro> I think of this as protocol, 
16:31:40 <sandro> FabGandon: RSS feed of changes -- talis changest vocab
16:31:48 <sandro> JeniT: Sparql push
16:31:52 <JeniT>
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16:32:56 <JeniT>
16:33:04 <sandro> seems out of scope
16:33:09 <sandro> JeniT: we need to do it anyway
16:33:27 <sandro> JeniT: (we =
16:33:28 <FabGandon> PhilA: also about SPARQL Push
16:34:01 <FabGandon> JeniT: we need that for data that we are publishing every week
16:34:13 <sandro> JeniT: We'll see data published on a weekly basis, so we need
16:34:13 <FabGandon> ... we need to a a design pattern for that
16:34:39 <FabGandon> sandro: just publishing the new data is not enough?
16:34:44 <FabGandon> JeniT: no
16:35:24 <FabGandon> ... links back to the named graphs.
16:36:34 <sandro> FabGandon: It's too big for this....
16:36:57 <sandro> 5.4 Distributed Query 
16:37:22 <FabGandon> sandro: too big to be handled here.
16:37:29 <sandro> same as above -- needs to be done, too big for us.
16:37:54 <FabGandon> SPARQL 1.1 has some elements of answer.
16:38:09 <sandro> JeniT: Maybe it goes into procurement guidelines, eg Sparql 1.1 service descriptions suitable fo rhtis
16:38:16 <sandro> 5.5 Developer-Friendly API and Serialization
16:38:23 <sandro> linked-data api
16:39:01 <FabGandon> sandro: JSON syntax for RDF should be part of the charter of RDF 1.1
16:39:25 <sandro> PhilA: should be relatively easy to get out the door
16:39:57 <sandro> JeniT: Yes, 3 impls, could be fast, but does need wider review -- eg for impementations.
16:40:46 <FabGandon> PhilA: it is manageable and we should pursue this
16:40:47 <sandro> PhilA: this is really important, and doable.
16:40:59 <FabGandon> ... important in terms of deployment 
16:41:20 <FabGandon> sandro: will still exist even if we don't do anything within W3C
16:41:44 <FabGandon> PhilA: from a visibility point of you this is important
16:42:48 <sandro> sandro: I'm worried about arbitrary decisions in the design coming back to be a problem in the WG
16:42:59 <sandro> JeniT: the JSON might be a problem.
16:43:39 <sandro> JeniT: I think we're a lot of the way there, but leaning towards its own WG.
16:44:26 <FabGandon> PhilA: need to talk about outreach
16:44:31 <sandro> [edit] 2.5 Outreach 
16:44:41 <FabGandon> ... it needs to happen somehow
16:44:50 <sandro> PhilA: somehow this has to happen, perhaps via EU funding
16:45:10 <FabGandon> ... some way to distribute the output of the group among the governments
16:46:05 <FabGandon> sandro: counter argument: the focus of the WG is the how not the why.
16:46:44 <FabGandon> ... the demos of the "how" will make the job of the people doing the "why" easyer 
16:47:10 <sandro> robin: In general, WGs are pretty bad at selling their own stuff, being so involved in the technical work.
16:47:50 <sandro> ... people who were writing great blogs went silent when they joined the WG.
16:47:55 <FabGandon> robin: may be outreach should happen outside the WG
16:49:21 <FabGandon> sandro: could still be included in the charter.
16:50:03 <sandro> PhilA: marketing is important in making markets
16:52:05 <FabGandon> sandro: I don't have any exact data about the number of members for the WG.
16:55:24 <sandro> JeniT: great value to have new folks in WG, so people experience having to explain this stuff
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17:09:04 <PhilA> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:09:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate PhilA
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