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EOWG Minutes 12 December 2003 Meeting

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Shawn:  Lets get started, couple of outreach updates sent to the list, any additional comments for the list?  Anything else on outreach updates? 

Next on the agenda topic #2: Update on the best practices in Madrid.  One more pass for Shadi and I to do before we announce it.  Registration is open today.  Use a different registration form.  We’ll be working on that design of the form to change the design.  We will have sample emails to use to announce the event.  We’ll send those around to the list later this afternoon.  Anyone around Spain in February.  We’ll be sending a note to WAI ID list.  Avoid multiple people posting.  Anything missing feel free to send questions.  Any question on the Best Practices Training in Madrid in Spain.  February.  2004

Harvey:  The language is English?

Shawn:  Yes the language is English, real time text transcription in English.  The idea being it is easier to understand text reading in English.  We may have Spanish translation but we have not decided yet.  Comments on the Best Practices in Madrid.  Comments or questions about Andrews updates sent to the list?

Andrew:  We try to keep busy.

Shawn:  Any other outreach updates or questions about the event in Madrid.

Andrew:  Bob Regan (of Macromedia) was interviewed on the major Melbourne paper and Sidney Paper in the technology section.  About on line learning and I was interviewed co-jointly as a local expert in the same area.

Harvey:  There is an XML conference in Philadelphia this week.  Did not penetrate disability accessibility content as well I think.

Shawn:  Matt May is there and has a presentation.  Any other comments? 

Third agenda item:  The Wai site project report on the re-design:  I am looking at who is here.  Everyone knows that we have had a task force working on that since the first meeting at the end of September.  We have a lot of momentum.  Finishing the first stage of analysis and going to the next stage.  We wanted to bring to EO for input and additions.  I sent a message to the list about web site documents for review the re-design.  The first document is an overview.  I am not going over in detail any of that by way introduction that first document.  I do want open it up for any questions.  How the task force is working.  Any questions?  The process?  The way the task force is working.  Any introductory comments.  The folks who are on the task force.  Carol and Andrew and Charmane?

Andrew:  No comment.

Charmane:  No comment

Shawn:  We did get your email Harvey.  Thank you very much for sending last night.  A couple of suggestions for cleaning up the reference.  If your email includes any discussion.  Bring up when we get to that section?  There are some things we could discuss about the process.  Question on the process for the task force?  Let’s look at the vision statement.  That is linked from the Email.

Harvey:  This is a good model for many other people who are considering site re-design.  I am not sure which document about their own site re-design to point to.

Shawn:  One of the things to make this a case study for the rest of the W3C site and others as well.  That is a very secondary thing.  Don’t want to spend too much time for cleaning up.  One of our specific visions.  Do this with the WAI website and everyone see how successful that was.  And everyone do the re-design because it was successful and the entire W3C site would go through a re-design.  Harvey a wording comment or substance?

Andrew: Harvey was suggesting end of the site processing.  The first dot points be not repetitive there but be into presentation or structural thing.

Harvey;  That’s editorial.

Shawn:  I don’t’ want to make it sub-bullets to give too much emphasis.  maybe we can look at re-writing.  We don’t WANT to give too much emphasis.  Right now at the six bullets for readability.  On the vision this captures what captures what is important on the WAI site?  Something missing, something emphasized more or less.  Sylvie and Henk and Shadi and Helle and Doyle.

Shawn:  Doyle go on light minuting for this.

Henk:  a question at the second bullet, we can read about the wide range of audiences.  identify meeting needs and identifying needs how do we do that?  People can do requests or ask questions etc.?

Andrew:  tried to identify why people would come to the web site.  The web site does not answer everyone’s questions.  But we have a long list of potential tasks when they come to the WAI website as part of the re-design.  What else they might want to do when they come here.  Identify the gaps with what is currently on the web site.  Not a complete but partial gap analysis.

Shawn:  I think I understand what you are saying Henk.  We have specific techniques for doing that.  How are we going to get this information?  Once this is complete.  You mention we would have a way to gather information from the WAI site.  We don’t, that is not specified yet.  The group wanted to make sure needs are identified.  Do we think that is an important goal to have in the mission.

Henk:  is it possible to log the search words on the site?

Shawn:  definitely one of the things we would like to do.  a WAI search for the subsite.  To go through the current logs is for the whole site.  So WHAT we hope to do is have a search that just goes through the WAI subsite.  What would like to do is look at search terms.  Great idea!!!!  Did you have any followup Henk.

Henk:  No.

Shawn:  W3C uses a google search.  There has been a whole bunch of slow downs.   To get approved has slowed things down.

Doyle:  It looks more readable to me.

Shawn:  Any other comments on the vision.  Sylvie Shadi, Helle any comments?  Wrap up vision, any comments before we close? 

The next thing is the users that come to the site and then the tasks.  In item c is the user role list.  I am looking at Harvey’s comments.  The group that isn’t covered is those that trust their software to make suggestions.  Look at number six.  Image working for a non-profit is helpful.  Look at number six web content provider.  Web content provider.  We have got number two is definitely technical.  Number six is non-technical, maybe add WYSIWIG editor.

Harvey:  Addition for that tool set that don’t make it too easy and there are far too many of those tools.

Shawn:  That would be good, to the next stuff in the personas and tasks.  For here we can add to number six.  One of the things that we have’nt done as a user group is to chunk it in sections, to group in sections, and haven’t discussed to finalize who is the primary audience in this.  The long list is 26 user roles, that’s pretty big.  What is a primary and a secondary?  That is really a discussion, that discussion applies much higher.  The task force is to think of everyone.  Focus on the priorities Higher than the EO, or the domain as a whole, to focus on what the priorities are.  Some discussion on that.  Some higher level as well.  I would be interested to talk briefly about who the primary audience is of these 26 are.

Henk:  Yes, about the disability group and specialist and where is the disabled user of the web site?

Shawn:  Yeah.

Andrew:  Like Mary.

Shawn:  Let’s add that.  Andrew will send a note.  Action item.  We actually worked on this and then let go, and then worked on personas.  How would you classify yourself Henk?

Henk:  A web accessibility consultant or evaluator.

Shawn:  We have two additions.  Any other comments on the user list?

Harvey:  If you are going to have a long list up front those links get put in.

Shawn:  Harvey I saw your comments and we’ll put those in. 

Harvey:  If you are going to have this long list upfront each one deserves to have a link to where is in the table.

Shawn:  Very good.

Andrew:  One that a colleague thought was missing was authoring tool and content management system developers.  They are a crucial audience.

Shawn:  We should have gone back on ourselves.  One of the tasks, to take back to the task for cross checking to catch one or two other things like.  Action for the task force.  Action item.

Harvey:  Number 20, policy maker for organizations, is there an inter-country EO to develop accessibility standards?

Shawn:  We have got WAI working group member # 26.  number 19 government policy maker.  I am wondering about international policies something like.  European commission would be covered on 19.  Other people minor role, others developing national and international standards?

Charmane:  Isn’t that close enough international standard lingo?

Shawn:  We definitely not but there is work going on in ISO.  Japanese standards being written.  Really important issue to avoid standards fragmentation.  Add another user for that.  Any comments National or International standards developer.  Specifically someone developing guidelines for their organization.

Charmane:  That would be 20.

Andrew:  Maybe say policy and guidelines on number 20.

Shawn:  Great.

Harvey:  ISO moves slightly faster than glaciers.

Shawn:  The group I worked on about five years ago is still not out yet.  The status on this is basically this is not quite your last chance but close.  We will send one more notice to the list, and send any comments and wrap this up and have this thorough before we go to the next step.  Any other comments to the user list before we move on.

Sylvie:  What is the difference between # 7 which involves and educator and # 21 which is also educator, …What does number 9, what is the ICT manager…?

Shawn:  &# 7 educator with course materials on line, and #21 is an educator who is including accessibility in courses.  Charmane, address that?

Charmane:  There are people who don’t put their stuff online yet I don’t know how that distinction came about?  Do you recall?

Shawn:  We will look at that and see if we can make a discussion more clear or not a distinction we’ll put together.

Henk:  Perhaps it is just the educator in 7 is in the role of web developer, and 21 is the web educator who is teaching it in courses.

Charmane:  I am not sure that is what we are concerned with infusing accessibility in their course material.

Shawn:  The role of 21 is a trainer and 7 is a developer.  We definitely make that more clear.  We don’t have any other.  Make number 7 or 21 trainers or teachers.  The university setting.  A university setting.  Another trainer or teacher that is looking for another for information for teaching and clarify # 7 would be one of the above.

Charmane:  To make sure the distinction between who is a trainer as opposed to a professor.

Shawn:  One is doing it part time.  And the other full time.

Charmane: In relationship to 21 the element of researcher?  Element of researcher.

Shawn:  We don’t have researcher anywhere in here.  Going to add these.  Action Item  And then and some good discussions comments on 7 or 21 before we move on?  Number 9 spell out the acronyms .  IT is information technology, ICT Information Communication Technology.  I don’t’ know what is used in Australia.  Andrew?

Andrew:  We use both.

Shawn:  CIO is chief Information Officer….We will write out those acronyms

Harvey:  The acronym was linked to the glossary.

Shawn:  We need to spell out, because most user agents don’t give you the acronym. 

The next section is the user personas.  We have one other one that  John Dodge has not sent yet.  The Henk role for the web accessibility trainer.  We have one on that coming.  I didn’t everyone to read all the details on that.  To skim through the users roles.  Both the most important ones and also the ones we know the least about.  To help keep realistic users in mind.  Not supposed to be real people.  A persona or fictional story that design team doesn’t know very well.  Some of those like Jessica and Mark and Andy and Mary.  Came from the WCAG working group.  Wendy and I talked about personas.  Very important for sharing with them.  We added some others for example several folks in the web site task force are not in Academia.  Are not heavily involved in those.  Some of the other groups that the task force felt we didn’t have a good understanding of was a legislator and someone involved in government and then also a reporter.  We don’t have written yet.  Someone familiar with those roles to write those in the list also.  Skimming through do you think the more important roles are covered and captured aspects of the ones in mind?  Have any suggestions to add or these are adequate.

Charmane:  Sue is not an executive assistant that was an error.  Industry policy consultant Action item.  Otherwise you have two executive assistants. Which doesn’t make sense.  Sue is a professor and industry policy consultant.  For education research and policy. 

Shawn:  Add more to that?

Charmane:  For education research and business?  Wasn’t in the position section where it should have been.

Shawn:  If you hit refresh on your browser that change would be made.  And looking at the higher roles that would be adequately covered.  Henk had brought up one thing missing from the user role, the web accessibility evaluator, which is coming.

Carol:  Changing to a Spanish national.

Shawn:  We took out the last names.  Make more clear.  Change the first names.  When we took out the last name we lost the ethnic.

Charmane:  We can use the Sri Lankan for Sue, and Chou Ping instead of Professor Zhang.

Shawn:  We will do some more minor things.  I want to look at the higher level captured the important.

Harvey:  As a reporter we could get something out of John Williams?  Might be willing to contribute.

Shawn:  Any other comments on the personas.   Let’s move on.  If we have time we will put some photos in.  If you have or find any that we have permission to use.  Send some model and photographer permission to use.  Pictures really help.  Not a priority at this point.  This is an open invitation to anyone who has a photograph. 

The next item is the task list.  Take a minute to bring that up…..We didn’t have a clear grouping didn’t work, people focus on the group and the grouping really had no meaning.  Therefore was distracting.  Not important to spend time on that.  To waste any more time to come up with effective grouping to help us in actually looking at this list.  We really tried to come up with something that worked.  That does make this a long list.  Somewhat similar tasks are grouped together.  Not in some director or identified way.

Harvey:  I preferred the old version.

Shawn:  If you look at the old list, it was much shorter.  We have added a lot of tasks since then.  And they don’t fit.  Task three shouldn’t be there but in another category.  We tried.  So on the task list.  I think Sailesh sent some tasks later yesterday.  There are few tasks that are not incorporated.  May discuss take a minute and think about why people would come to the web site.  Why people come to the web site.  To make sure that is covered in the task list.  Number 12 and the very last one my organization needs help with accessibility who can we contact locally about contracting is not on the web site.  We wanted to know here why they are going to the site.  We still want to know even if we don’t provide.  We may want to have that information.  Instead of searching and searching they see something that says we won’t provide a list of consultants but you might find them here?  Comments? Some of the user roles we have mentioned we do have in the task list for example.  Number 45….and 46 A web site doeosn’t work with accessibility any comments.  I think Harvey the best way to approach it is the best way to do task and see if they are included or not.  Any comments by the first of the year.

Harvey:  In table markup.  There is an ability to identify head role. 

Shawn:  Yeah you can identify T-head but you can’t do that in every browser yet.  One of the things in draft we haven’t cleaned up the markup yet.

Harvey:  That big table is a good example of it.

Shawn:  One of the things is these are in a draft area.  To move out to makes sure the draft is good.  Surrounded by a T-head but not marked with a TH yet.  Comments.  Probably too overwhelming for people to have much comment now.  Comments on task.  Gone.  The last thing, a similar thing, to look at the WAI contents list.  Harvey asked if generated list from a public tool.  A tool called Shawn Henry does that.  Not available in stores near you.  Actually then Wendy did another level for WCAG.  She went a level deeper for the WCAG focuses on ones that people outside of a working group would want to get to.  And did have input from other folks in WAI.  Judy and Shadi and Wendy added some things I had missed as well.  Think oh here is an obscure page that make sure this gets on to the list.  This is an activity called card sorting.  This card sorting gets at the information architecture.  Target users source those cards & group the cards.  The groups.  To define the information architecture the grouping of the information on the site.  Comments? 

Harvey:  Your last comment suggests that the first the category columns suggest culd be a header for each group.

Shawn:  I stuck in there to help me in organizing the whole thing. Quickly picked to help make this list.  It would be interesting to see how card sorting works with similarity.

Harvey:  What library did card sorting come from?

Shawn:  It is taking cards, put the name of the index card, and have a physical this thing.  It is much more effective with good old paper.  Every now and then we go back to the chisel and stone.  That is basically an overview to most of the activity we've done up to now.  We will talk about card sorts on Monday.  We are moving forward to information to design at the beginning of the year.  In terms of the big picture.  We plan on having a prototype at the beginning of March. For the technical plenary in France in March.  And CSUN in March.  Good and unique audiences to do that with.  We have that facility scheduled for that in both places.  Questions on the web site re-design?  Comments.

Harvey:   Bravo!!!

Shawn:  We will take that to the group on Monday.  For the main meeting will wrap up anything you want to discuss.  Last item how to arrange that for people who volunteered for doing that.  For minuters.  Andrew and Shadi, Doyle, Charmane Chuck, Justin, Libby, volunteered… anyone is welcome to stay on for that.

Helle:  Did you do the update on the Madrid meeting?

Shawn:  We are announcing that today.  Shadi and I need to take one more look.  Make sure we ddidn’t cut out a whole chunk of that.  We will send out email announcements later today.

Shadi:  Presenters make sure you are ok with your time slot.

Shawn:  Shadi will contact Sylvie and other folks.  Anyone who doesn’t want to talk about minuting.  Wanted to check on and look over the template.  I wanted to check in and look over the template for minuting. 

Carol:  I am on the list.

Harvey:  As well.

Shawn:  I wanted to check in about how things are going for the template.  Go look at the template.  I tried putting some more specific directions, nicer to have there or more annoying to take out?  Go over the templates, and to talk in general about making easier.  And finally the schedule.  What would be the most effective way to do that.  Comments.

Andrew:  I think directions, but missed one.  At the top also change the meta tag that reflects of the meeting date.

Harvey:  I didn’t get that email.

Shawn:  Subject is to minuters.  I can give you the URL directly to the page.  Point you there and you know how to get there. W3C.org/WAI/EO/minutes.html.  Minute template available.  So to the template.  Action item Add meta date. 

Andrew:  Not all is automatically produced.  Remind people when they update the title.  Not all of the stuff is automatically produced.

Shadi:  The first thing I will do is to have a local (hard drive) copy taken out.  I would be also happy with up loading the skeleton. 

Shawn:  One of the things is to have a local copy.  If we make changes to the template when you have a local copy.  Email folks we have a change and a skeleton, then I have to change two lots.  I would propose one version up here for a minor change that won’t make a difference, I won’t tell folks, But if a major change I will tell folks.  In the past I would take the template.  Change the date myself. Send to the minuter.  Doyle got all the names?  How helpful to people who don’t recognize all the names?

Carol:  Helpful.

Shawn:  An xform.  If you want to put the time of course.  No shortage of good ideas.  Just a shortage of time.  Comments on the templates.  To make easier?  Tips to share.

Doyle:  Tips page as they are doing to send in.

Shawn:  Ok. Action item.  Might want to do later.  Everyone can see that.  The last thing to talk about how to schedule.  A way that is easiest and most effective.  One is at the end a rotation.  A list of names   When one scribes goes to the bottom of the list.  Next person’s turn.  Another way to do.  People volunteer for specific days.  Then have a primary and back up.  Figure out to take out the least amount of juggling.  Andrew and he can’t make.  Notify the back up.  How does he do that?  What if the back up is not available?

Doyle:  I prefer that rotation list.  Only one person that shows up they have to do again.  What somebody does a couple of times.  Taken off twice.

Shawn:  That sounds like that is the other comments

Charmane:  My one concern is to do a strict rotation don’t work well to review well.  Strict rotation tend not work well.  Four to six week and then review.

Shawn:  We would have a list, whoever is at the top of the list.  Not be there that day.  Andrew carol.  Chuck.  Andrew sends ….if you are at the top of the list.  The next scribe knows they are not up.  Whatever reason you don’t want to take minutes send a message to the top of the list. 

Doyle:  Put a plus sign when you have done extra scribing. 

Shawn:  Did the dates of when you did

Andrew:  Put a plus sign.

Shawn:  Let us do that with a date.  Do for the order?  Reverse?

Charmane:  Take me off the list altogether.  Occasionally I might, at conferences it is better for me to do.

Shawn:  Allright.  We had it depended.

Harvey:  Re-sort attendees.  Andrew should start.

Andrew:  By the initials.

Shawn:  Sort by initials, fine to use names also.  Right now we don’t have anyone with the same first name.  Feel free to use names if that works better for you.

Andrew:  The alt text for the W3C is the W3C logo. To link to the home page or the logo?  Secondary purpose the W3C we are branding at the same time, change to the home page.  Putting this on the table that comes up with governments and corporates the web people is a primary as a link but the marketing people think is to brand the page. 

Shawn:  A good question not for now but a good question.  This is not something we will change now.  What would the link to the WAI logo.  The W3C logo make a request to a standard throughout the site.  Not change the template for the whole.

Justin:  I can only do part of the call sometimes how do we handle that?

Shawn: Sometimes someone can be only there for the first half of the call.  

Doyle:  One person to put together when the job is split.

Shawn:  Quite a few people who volunteered.  If not up to the message.  The other thing is if you would ask.  If you are up at the top of the list.  Don’t want to minute, send a message ahead of time.  Comments or suggestions.  I will put this together.  If we do, looking at the alphabetical.  Andrew would be up for next week….. Next meeting is the Nineteenth of December and Judy will be chairing, and Andrew will be scribing.

Last updated on $Date: 2005/08/24 13:41:07 $ by $Author: jthorp $

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