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EOWG Meeting, 17 January 2003

attendees - outreach updates - translation priorities - online overview - gallery checklist - next meeting

agenda for this meeting


Present: Doyle (scribe), Judy (chair), Harvey, Shawn, Henk, Helle, Sarah, Alistair, Marja, Alan Chuter, Blossom, Kathleen, Charmane, Natasha, Sylvie.

Outreach Updates

Judy on the quick tips question, Daniel said about 100,000, but it is over 300,000.  For the agenda we have…wrap up of priorities, …further discussion of WAI gallery, continue working on policy.  A lot of people have sent stuff in and that is great.  I wanted to finish …tentative agendas any questions or comments on the agenda?  Just to deal with one or two questions that came up during the week.  A few people working together on the business case, Andrew and Miguel and I had met last Monday, and then Andrew had been expec;ting to redraft the business case resource suite and then send a draft to Judy and … and he couldn’t do that before he left on his trip.  What has happened Alistair we’ll shift this back to a later Friday meeting and give Andrew some more time to finish.  Thanks for checkingt in on that.  Helle you sent an outreach update to the list.

Helle I tried to make a summary in Engllish an action plan, what I want to do for digital government to take in some regulation to be sure when you implement a document that people with a disability can handle that.  Some government have implement inaccessible,

Judy that can be very effective, sometimes the agency want to be and if you spoon feed them, …

Helle this new competency center some of the people who will join that we have been working on that.

Harvey I hope this can be a model for other countries.

Helle I saw somewhere under the EU they had collected as appropriate in other EU countries, they are going to make a web site for testing, under EU have decided to use this model, to make a contract with the consortium in Denmark to try under a number of web sites in the member states.

Judy I have a question some people who had a need to make a more indepth check .  In the rest of Euroep they would use for the rest of Europe.

Helle we have done a lot of work, and France, the expert group we have improved on the accessibility work.  In the press they talk more about user friendliness.

Judy any other updates?  There is in agenda there is a link to the face face meeting in Boston, our main activity is Monday and Tuesday, and Wednesday and Thrusday people can ask for permission to stay for a meeting.  On Friday some discussion on the WAI glossary we would have a small room and for people with an interest in the WAI glossary if you haven’t said something about your interest, please let me know.

Helle I had asked Wendy via email.

Judy you should cc me, she is expecting a certain amount of people from EO.

Charmane I did the same thing.

Helle I didn’t say I was an expert.

Judy that is weird.  May be something wrong with the registration process.  Anything about the registration process.

Helle can’t open the hotel registration form.  Somewhere it says to open theis page and send to the hotel.

Judy could you send that link to me?  I spent some time with that in the mean time anyone planning on staying at the conference hotel.  Get your registration into the hotel.  If we show that we are fully booking the meeting rooms.

Alan the registration form said.

Judy Helle just said that.  They said that people aren’t registering.

Alistair, is the evaluation and repair group meeting?

Judy no they are not.

Alistair what is happening with that?

Judy that particular group is up in the air right now.  A number of different directions it could go, Alistair if you are particularly interested in that group, right now is not the right to discuss it but send me an email.

Harvey last email I saw was in June.

Judy I think Harvey you might have fallen off the list.  They published URLs a few months ago.  Wendy was doing that and I assumed that was something you would receive.

Blossom I have transitioned to my home computer.  I don’t have the agenda URL..

Judy I will be sending a email with a very clear header.  Iwill be sending a following up mail but it is in the agenda already.  Any other outreach updates.  Ok let’s see.  So they next thing on the agenda then is the translation priorities for WAI documents

Translation Priorities

Translaation priroties for WAI documents

I met with Martin Duerst, who is also the translation coordinator. If you follow the link to the change log.  There are many changes in the change log.  In addition I sent a request around to the WAI and to the staff of various groups, and I got a pretty strong reaction asking why we were deemaphsizing the normative document and discussing the non-normative issues first, I pointed out the second item was the …we have a lot high demand items and the sometimes we have heard that it is less in getting into English, I had thrown in XML and DAG …

Harvey still a specialized audience.

Judy first is there any comments on the changes that have been made?  Second now that we have the list spelled out here does the order of the list look ok?

Alan techniques is a long way down the list.

Judy what number

Alan number seven.  One of the ones that people I deal with use the most.

Judy any comments in response to Alan, People agree that it ought to be moved up.

Shawn what is the decision with WCAG the techniques new techniques 2.0

Judy the Techniques document come out with different …as notes they can be updated so the techniques for 2.0 are already being worked.  People want to continue discussion of placement of things on the list

Shawn I was just wondering of the whole timing of 2.0 and 1.0 and if 2.0 is coming out soon is a difficult question.

Alan when is it coming then?

Shawn no one knows for sure but sometime this year.

Judy I am back again.  What decisions?

Kathleen WCAG number eight doesn’t say if it is 1.0 or 2.0?

Judy how often does it get used in other languages Henk?

Henk I was thinking that both llists A and B parallel lists or serial lists?

Judy parallel but the person who reacted last night might have thought serial.

Henk I would think this is a parallel list.

Shawn maybe …

Judy that is a good point the list themselves are currently confusing in their presentation.  Explain and remove A and B and explain these are parallel lists.

Henk yes perhaps you can explain this also, depending on the time and money available you can choose one of these lists.

Judy things I was hearing that we weren’t agreeing on yet.  The technique should be moved way up to the technical list to be the third item in that list.  Is that something people agree or disagree.

Henk just thinking about.

Judy here is something else to muddy things up.  When I had gone back over this.  We had listed the separate pages as the resource suite.  Those for instance were in the bottom of the short list are part of the implementation resource suite, put in a phrase that says includes …collapse the list a little bit, by not breaking up the review teams and so forth.  If we emphasie this is a multi page resource sutie.   What do people think?

Charmane what abou t indenting.  Don’t list all together.

Judy nest the resource sutie.

Henk yes that is better.

Judy anyone if you ignore for minute the three things, …the only thing between that and t…come after techniques is the evaluation more important techniques.

Sarah I think they are very different and that is why we are getting mixed up.  One for audience and the other another audience, and you can’t say which is more imporatn because it depends upon where you are coming from.  I was trying to get at Maybe there is room for a different approach.

Marja I was thinking of another list for evaluation materials.

Charmane techniques is stable and evaluations is not stable.  Translate techniques first.

Judy some other  thing smarked unstable changes  in two weeks,  Always in flux so we don’t want to take that into consideration.  This doesn’t sound like a major problem  Otherwise this is good enough to go.

Blossom one thing is the titles were bold to stand out easier to read.

Shawn putting space between the list items.  Very difficult to read.

Sarah why are you listing the docuemtn links rather than the reference materials

Judy standard to actually display the URL

Shawn make a little easier to read.

Judy the easiest things to do is to mess aournd with bolding.  I agree the list is the style sheet is easy to mess with.  I will do a little time with the stylining and display.

Blossom I would have the titles bolded rather the text.

Judy the group said they wanted the translation easy to find. 

Shawn having their onw line gives them a lot of clarity.

Judy try debodling the translations.

Helle you have the quotes just under the titles I think we put the spaces under the titles it is easy to see where each document ends and the next begins.

Judy I had tried but harder to read.  A wrapped URL is a readability problem for some people.

Blossom got rid of the brakets would make a little simpler.

Judy I think we shouldn’t spend on formatting issues.

Alan. Spelling…

Blossom what about putting shorter materials in the medium d…

Helle we did agree on  that.

Judy …Any documents shockingly left out of list?  Ok anything else on this docuemtn?

Blossom first paragraph after translation.  I could see that first sentence being deleted it is redundant to me.

Judy you would be jumping into transition.

Shawn using that sentence to suggest that is a volunteer thing, not a paid thing.

Judy given the diverse expectations when they do translations.  People don’t process the subhead sthe same way.  Anyone else want to argue for removal.  Why don’t we leave it.  I had put out a request for feedback and the WAI team and chairs of other working groups.  We may get more comments in the next few days.  If I don’t hear anything, I may announce this as well.  Thanks everybody.  One of change requests put this into a section on the EO’s deliverables page slated for quarterly review.  Update the status section anytime that changes are made. I did add a section to the deliverables page for quarterly review. Close this page and publish it. 

Online Overview

So the next thing is the online overview.  If people could start opening that and looking at that.  Similarly took into account all the edits that were reqested.

Alan were you counting on me tbeing there next week. 

Judy are you leaving now.

Alan I thought we were going to do next week.

Judy Alan it is ok we didn’t get there last week.  You’ll get less action items.

Alan it is ok I nearly have the Spanish sectin done.

Judy you’ll be here for the whole meeting next week?

Alan yes.

Judy Now the one thing that is definitely not done on this is the slide maker fixes.  Shawn sent a list of what is to be done on that.  Let’s start on that.  I’m going ot open the change log.  We were last talking about this on Janauayr third.  The changes not done was grouping the resources.  I moved one or two things done we could live with a slightly scrambed list.  On slide 22 aobut call for participation of a new group.  I was not sure why we wanted to link to this slide here, and the renaming to get started goes to a different change request bin.  Otherwise all the changes are done.  Any general reactions first.  We are all done then.  Any specific reactions.

Alistair are the numbers down the side affected on their computer.

Judy that was noted it is a style sheet bug. Will address separately.

Aloistari on slide foue the word unprecedented.  I am alwsya for a good definition of web accessibility but I don’t know about that word unprecedented.

Judy I think historically it is probably accturate to say this.  If you look at most disability groups, access to for instance information in libraries in the past was poor in most countries.  Being inaccessible to wheelchairs; books not accessible to people with print disabilities; the discourse not accessible to deaf people.  The web brings more potential for access.  Peter Bosher of British Computer Society for the Blind said this so eloquently in a presentation four or five years ago.  Even with the extent towhich the Web is currently inaccessible, still the amount of information people with disabilities have access to is thousands of times more than before.  In grad school I couldn't turn the pages of research journals after pulling them down from the shelf because my arms were so tired. But when I hit the web, I could go anywhere in the world. The meaning here is that the level of access to information can be like never been before.

Shawn I am going to argue with both of you.  I am agreeing with access is unprecendented.  I don’t think that a lot of people will be looking at the web as information to a lot of people read of web is unprecendented.

Judy how aobut explain the unprecendendted a little bit.

Shawn a lot of people don’t think about.

Judy I think about everyday.  Worked for people?

Harvey unprecedent and universal are the same thing.  Unrestricted.

Judy let me try to make different ways to explain this. 

Shawn the other thing is when you look at the slide as a whole is the definition of web accessibility.  Help people to talk aobut this.

Alistair I would mirror what Shawn was sayingt the idea people looking at the end.  Definition of web accessibility.  The presentation has to provide a clear defgintion of accessibility.

Judy next slide do that?

Shawn I agree with Alistiar

Judy add in a slide that defines web accessibility.  Maybe we could break up the information on slide five, take the beginning sentence and generalize it, make the front part be more of general statement.  Trying to agree on web accessibility.  Write a quick tips card.

Shawn I agree with Alistair that people are looking for that.  Move from five to one.

Judy who would define web accessible.

Shawn I will pull up my presentation.

Kathleen on slide the first bullet would be web accessbilitly

Judy ok

Shwan.The ability to use web content even under limiting conditions functional and situational limitations..More people can use your web site effectively.

Judy sound like nothing to do with disability.  Functional accessibility is jargon used by people in the field.

Alistair The conceptual understanding of each piece of content is the same for everyone who accesses that.

Judy how do we know how understand that.  People may take very different understandings or impacts from what they read.

Helle my concern we get a mixture of the content, the accessibility, …

Judy isn’t web accessibility …

Shwan designing so that more peoplecan use your web site effectively in more situations.  More of marketing thing than accessibility.

Judy Natasha what do you use.

Natasha we use what you use.  Provide access for people with disabilities.

Judy there is a tendency to be afraid of the word disabilities.  Yours sounds fine.

Natasha two different aspects to that.

Judy there has been this static presentation, not looking with fresh eyes.  To come up with this.  I am going to ask people who haven’t spoken.  Sylvie what do you use.

Sylvie I use the slides.

Judy if just informally.  What does web accessiblitly.

Sylive the way to access to the web regardless of the technicques regardless of

Judy what aobut your Henk.

Henk always the first slide we start.  Everyone can use the functions of the web site.  Operating of the system different user agents.  A browser is for two different groups different user agents, and different disability.

Judy device indepence regardless of disability.  Interesting using everyone.  What about a severe cognitive disability.

Henk everyone is everybody.  A general way of speakinging.

Judy I am wondering about use the functions of web site.  Alternative access and not using all of the functions.

Helle I was trying to say, everybody should be use a web site, without obstacle, and identify what is the site.

Judy I was interested in the preamble to the guidelines.

Henk you can use the navigation.  Any function of web site.

Judy is anybody sitting on a gem?  Their favorite definition they would like to raise right now.

Charmena implementing accessiblit formatting features for web pages facilitate more efficient connectivity information and services for all visiotires.   It also allows us to reach us to reacht thye broadest possible audience.  And facilitate access for people with disability.  The compliance issue you have to give multiple reasons.

Judy a business case that not just a simple definition.

Charman ebroadest possible audience.  Rational behind it.

Shawn another  approach of WCAG 2.  Percieinvabe operable navigable understandable robust.

Marja that is a good approach. 

Judy by and for people with disability 

Sarah being able to reach more audience it makes it easier for you never know who you reach.

Charmane navigable. 

Judy breaks the conceptual flow.

Helle to translate Tim Berner Lees quote.

Judy Blossom, Harvey?

Blossom making web sites about disabilities.  I kind of llike the perceivable operable to condense.  Just almost overwhelming.  Operable

Judy I am going to suggest we not try to come up with final wording today.  We all dwell on this and look at the intro to WCAG 2.0.  I am tempeted trying to tie together.  See if I can tie together into a slide that is simple and come early in the flow.  We revisit this next Friday.  Maybe we’llland on somethat will work.  If we haven’t come up with a clear definition.  We had better figure that out.  Does that work for people?

Marja, one thing I am missing is images.

Judy any one else with closing comments.

Sarah one thing a lot of times I do talk about web accessible and the context of universal design and give a world definition.  The other thing most of time I just show people.  I do all the browser and show how they can transform to meet peoples needs.

Judy I wanted to check to see if anyone had any other comments on the slide set.  About 20 changes that occurred, I am hoping that people are looking through those changes the only thing to talk aobut is the new slide on a definition of web accessibility.

Alistair I was looking through why the web accessibility was set up.

Judy that is abit of a story.  I think it would be we don’t say when it was started.  Let me put in try adding something about when and how it started.  It started.  People like that idea?  Let me give that a shot.  What else?

Harvey prior information trace work for example?

Judy I am thinking about not too much depth.  One thing we could do is make sure that links are clear in the docment.  I don’t know how much detail Harvey.

Harvey started in 96

Judy 97 first launch in April.  Do something simple here though.  Is that ok with people?  Anything else on this slide set for now.  Apart from the definition.  Maybe next we’ll be really done.

Gallery Checklist

Next thing on the agenda is gallery stuff.  Actually reviewing sites.  Apologies for that worth looking at the updated version what Henk is working on. 

Henk What did we change?  On the home page if you see the link bar, the help is not ready yet.  We need an explanation right now.  To explain how this works.  The check list document will ask you to choose a web site address if you do that you will get a full checklist, and of course marking the list.  We also did a possibility to make some notes of the specific pages you want to review.  Efeyrone of us.  To work on line at the moment.  On the checklist that is open a base URL and the date of the day.  With six different web sites go into the government of Ireland.  Click on that link.  Government of Ireland web site, and then get the checklist.  Under the base URL you will see the page selection and remarks.  The name of the website is the name of the web site.  There was a comment on the web browser you can choose your browser.  Good for compaing the results what different kind of browser for this review of the situation.  And then there was the preliemanry review.  Three checkpoints.  An area where you can put in notes.  There was always how to deal with a whole web site.  On each page you review, or one URL.  Since we don’t do an entire web site.  We do five or ten pages.  I think the best way is to print oe list , and then go to webstie and then fill out the checklist when you are ready.  When there is osme specific remarks and to the next page.  You will see you will have to choose again for specrfic web sites.  Then you see again the URL and the page selection .  At this moment at the government of Irelend.  ADM means the administrator.

Shawn have you done all these pages.

Henk, so for this page selection I have checked all the checkpoints.  Without any commands they are under each other and you can easily compare three or four reviewers.  You can condluce this could be the right evaluation.  Three or four people were revieweing a web site, and coming up with different results three or four ways to review.  You can now review the results and everybody is doing the same thing on the same page.

Harvey your review is asking all the right queston.  It is a complete rather than a partial.  If there is conern that it is done the same way.  It asserts that doing the same way is that an inclusive set of questions.

Judy it sounds pretty inclusive working off the checklist.

Henk all aobut the priorities one and two.  We are checking a web site in compliance to the checklist.

Harvey many have subject judgement.

Judy that is where you use the note field.

Henk when appllicalbe

Judy Harvey you are saying…

Charmane I use that a fair amount, use the checklist only have yes and no, often times if they see yes they wouldn’t look at the comment.

Henk I don’t think that won’t work.  When you say the web site complies with the guidelines you have to say yes or no.  Then in the notes you can say almost and why.  It is almost there.  When the checkpoints are correct and put in the right way, you can say yes or no.

Shawn I agree I used to working with people you are more worried about approval.  To make sure that comments with a yes and those don’t get lost.

Natasha when they are very close, addressed all the issues.  Missed something.  We put on the same level have no compliance and very close.

Henk yes in the notes make a summary of what we have seen.  Here is the checklist you comply to.  A checklist is a checklist.

Judy for the purposes of finding a web site for a double gallery.  For the purposes of generally evaluating web sites.  This then could be a really interesting questions.  Rather than explaining A double A and triple.  The questions in that are so complex that is very troublesome that certain things that are broken you get into an issue to block those folks and Henk I want to acknowledge is an important question.  We have to spend mor etime on, but for right now for this purpose we have to do what Henk is doing.

Helle the proble is if you odn’t check all the images. 

Alistair I totally agree with Henks work.  I didn’t think any feedback for people

Judy the intent is to be in diablogue wth people who are close.

Alistair if I choose a browser a text brwosers I meigh tsay yes, and then voice browers test.

Judy I think that conflicting responses on a lot of this.  It is one reason to be screened for any site.  The fun part is going to be once the data is in .  Debating it and trying to come up with agreement.  If I had been using that tool I would have seen that.  My understanding that Henk it doesn’t all go into the same set.

Henk for the web site. They are recorded separately.  The viewer results is….go to the left hand you will see the different reviewers.  When you click on the reviewers initials on the web site.  I do agree with the comment aobut difference text and a voice browser different possiblitlies.  Text browser and ujsut delete the whole thing put into a different list of browsers you are suing.

Judy any other comments?

Alistari page selectins be in URL form.  Pick exactly the same pages.

Henk given by the evaluation comparison.

Alistair URLs rather than name.  Driect URL has no confusion.

Henk as link that is possible.

Helle wouldn’t it be under the base the exact title.  Have the URL for the page selection.  Done a marvelous job here.

Henk I think that is possible to make a link right away.

Helle I want to you have the home page and the URL afterwards.

Henk in the web site reuse.  Have the link there instead of the name.

Helle both.  Where you same homepage put the link to that home page.

Sarah along the same lines where pages that failed one of the guidelines.  If I was reviewers I missed something I want to know where they could find that.

Henk yes that can be done.  I found one problem in the feedback page.

Sarah that would be great Up to the reviewer to give not a required field.

Henk you can compare the entire reviewers.  You can see what comments they made about each page.  If you are doubtingt the evalution.

Sarah if the field and you are clicking on one of the …I see a result column.

Henk are you in the checklist or review results page.  When you see the priority list.  When you don’t see all the remarks they made you can’t compare the reviewers made, then you can click on the name of the reviewer and then yu can see all the remarks.  If you click under one dot one, there is not any command.

Sarah I t might be useful to have a required field for any null result.  May make the process easier.

Henk when yu have to click a no, you have to get command.

Sarah and a name.

Natasha clilck on the name I will be brought to any specific paoint. 

Henk that can be a kind of behavior.  When you say no at any checkpoint.  Put in any URL that is also possible.  Instead of making that dynamic not go further until you put int a further remark.

Judy how many people have specific comments.  We almost at the ned of the call.  Henk can you tell me if we need to revisit this next  week.  And I wanted to take a minute about next,

Charmane I was looking at this on a MAC I couldn’t do that pull down menu.

Henk going to a page you can’t see a select.

Judy Henk do you want to have a few minutes next week?

Henk the only thing that I’ve heard is that is doable make links in many case.  In page selectin would be nice to have.  Have to instruct the reviewer how to use.  Not clear that we will have to delete the browser section, if something to be changed.

Judy people wanted to change that?

Helle split up text and voice browsers.

Judy why don’t’ we not talk aobut that next week.

Helle already sent something out?

Judy I haven’t.  Thank you Henk this is incredibly helpful.

Helle want us to start playing with this?

Judy yes!

Next Meeting

Judy with regard to next week.  We can spend a little time on the online overview.  On the policy references section We could

Sarah could we do in the second hour.

Judy I will try to start some in the second part.  I may send a note or two to the list, people have seen notes and want to reply to that.  That wraps up for today.  See you next week.

Last updated 23 January 2003 by Judy Brewer <jbrewer @w3.org>

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