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Comment from the i18n review of: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ Comment 20 At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/html5-bidi/ Editorial/substantive: S Tracked by: AL Location in reviewed document: undefined [http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/spec.html#contents] Comment:This is a part of the proposals made by the "Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML" W3C First Public Working Draft. For a full description of the use cases, please see http://www.w3.org/International/docs/html-bidi-requirements/#lists [http://www.w3.org/International/docs/html-bidi-requirements/#lists] . Here is the proposal made there: The HTML specification should state that, by default, the markers of all "list-style-position:outside" items should disregard the list item element's computed direction, using the list element's computed direction instead for the marker's display and positioning. CSS will provide means to control this. If the CSS default in this respect must differ, the default stylesheet should achieve the default behavior specified above. Furthermore, the list marker text will be directionally isolated from the list item text, appearing in its own UBA paragraph.
Seems like this should be defined in CSS, not HTML. Ideally the CSS default would be the desired behavior. It could be rather confusing if HTML had to override the CSS default. Has this feedback item been submitted to the CSS WG?
fantasai should know...
I actually worked with i18n on this comment. The default behavior cannot be different from what is in CSS2.1, which is to place the marker based on the directionality of the list item. We already have full interop on this behavior, and there are non-list use cases for marker for which it is appropriate. It's reasonable to add controls for for this in CSS3 Lists, however, so when that happens i18n is asking that this behavior be specified for the default UA stylesheet.
(In reply to comment #3) > I actually worked with i18n on this comment. The default behavior cannot be > different from what is in CSS2.1, which is to place the marker based on the > directionality of the list item. We already have full interop on this behavior, > and there are non-list use cases for marker for which it is appropriate. > > It's reasonable to add controls for for this in CSS3 Lists, however, so when > that happens i18n is asking that this behavior be specified for the default UA > stylesheet. Right, but the HTML spec should also describe the expected behavior without reference to CSS, since HTML theoretically is still supposed to work without CSS.
(In reply to comment #4) > (In reply to comment #3) > > I actually worked with i18n on this comment. The default behavior cannot be > > different from what is in CSS2.1, which is to place the marker based on the > > directionality of the list item. We already have full interop on this behavior, > > and there are non-list use cases for marker for which it is appropriate. > > > > It's reasonable to add controls for for this in CSS3 Lists, however, so when > > that happens i18n is asking that this behavior be specified for the default UA > > stylesheet. Is there reason to believe HTML could change the default behavior safely, even though CSS cannot? > > Right, but the HTML spec should also describe the expected behavior without > reference to CSS, since HTML theoretically is still supposed to work without > CSS. HTML5 does not have any rendering requirements, since it is a device-independent technology and a conforming implementation could render very differently from what is typical, or not at all. In the rendering section, it does describe a recommended default rendering, based entirely on CSS. It doesn't have an alternate description of rendering in non-CSS terms.
> Is there reason to believe HTML could change the default behavior safely, even > though CSS cannot? Yes. The case affected here is fairly rare, and in most cases the current rendering is awkward and has to be worked around by use of <span> or <div> tags inside the <li>. While I don't have any data for you, it seems likely that content-compatibility is not a concern here. For CSS, the argument for not changing is that we have full interop on the current initial value, and since the behavior is useful for non-list-item cases, it does not make sense for us to attempt to change all implementations. It makes more sense for us to introduce a switch in CSS3, and suggest that the new value be used by default for <li> items. (The CSSWG already has formal resolutions responding to this issue that we will not alter the behavior specced in CSS2.1.) I agree that this is not an HTML5 spec issue except insofar as the new value should be adopted in the recommended CSS defaults once it is specced out. So imo fixing this depends on an update to CSS3 Lists.
(In reply to comment #6) > > Is there reason to believe HTML could change the default behavior safely, even > > though CSS cannot? > > Yes. The case affected here is fairly rare, and in most cases the current > rendering is awkward and has to be worked around by use of <span> or <div> tags > inside the <li>. While I don't have any data for you, it seems likely that > content-compatibility is not a concern here. > > For CSS, the argument for not changing is that we have full interop on the > current initial value, and since the behavior is useful for non-list-item > cases, it does not make sense for us to attempt to change all implementations. If the "we already have full interop" argument has weight, then surely it also applies at the HTML level. Or are there implementations that handle <li> in some way other than the CSS default for list markers?
EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Rejected Change Description: no spec change Rationale: HTML explicitly doesn't define rendering except by reference to CSS, which applies whether or not the browser actually implements CSS the spec says "User agents that use other presentation mechanisms can derive their expected behavior by translating from the CSS rules", where "expected to" is the normative equivalent of "must" in that section. So as far as I can tell this is all already defined, and if it's not it's a CSS problem.
Granting that the HTML spec does not need to describe the rendering, we will still need the default style sheet change, which is a matter for the HTML spec. I can not at present provide the final form of the desired change because the CSS Styles modules has yet to include the new feature, but the proposal was received favorably by the CSS WG face-to-face at TPAC and the feature should be added soon. The proposed default style sheet change would apply only to li elements, and would have no visible effect on those that have the same direction as the list. It would indeed change the rendering of those items that have the opposite direction, but this is ok from the point of view of backward compatibility because by default, such lists are currently rendered unacceptably poorly, with the marker displaying only partially or not at all.
So what will the change be? Right now we don't set 'list-style-position' at all, we just rely on the default. Isn't that the preferred behaviour? i.e. shouldn't we just change CSS' default?
EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Did Not Understand Request Change Description: no spec change Rationale: Not sure what to change. Reopen the bug if there is a specific change requested.
(In reply to comment #10) > So what will the change be? What I have proposed on the CSS list is: li { list-style-position:outside-parent; text-align: match-parent; } This would have no visible effect on list items that have the same direction as the list. It would indeed change the rendering of those items that have the opposite direction, but this is ok from the point of view of backward compatibility because by default, such lists are currently rendered unacceptably poorly, with the marker displaying only partially or not at all. The list-style-position change has been favorably discussed by the CSS WG, but the outside-parent value has yet to be actually added to the CSS Lists spec. The match-parent value for text-align has already been added to the CSS Text module, but this part of the proposed change to li has yet to be discussed by the CSS WG. Thus, neither change can actually be done in the default style sheet yet. I will reactivate this bug when that changes. > Right now we don't set 'list-style-position' at > all, we just rely on the default. Isn't that the preferred behaviour? i.e. > shouldn't we just change CSS' default? See comment 6 for fantasai's explanation of why it would be against CSS WG policy to change the default for list-style-position, but is ok by them if it is done in the default style sheet. Of course, the text-align change just for li can only be done in the default style sheet.
(In reply to comment #12) > (In reply to comment #10) > > So what will the change be? > > What I have proposed on the CSS list is: > > li { > list-style-position:outside-parent; > text-align: match-parent; > } > > This would have no visible effect on list items that have the same direction as > the list. It would indeed change the rendering of those items that have the > opposite direction, but this is ok from the point of view of backward > compatibility because by default, such lists are currently rendered > unacceptably poorly, with the marker displaying only partially or not at all. > > The list-style-position change has been favorably discussed by the CSS WG, but > the outside-parent value has yet to be actually added to the CSS Lists spec. > The match-parent value for text-align has already been added to the CSS Text > module, but this part of the proposed change to li has yet to be discussed by > the CSS WG. Thus, neither change can actually be done in the default style > sheet yet. I will reactivate this bug when that changes. > > > Right now we don't set 'list-style-position' at > > all, we just rely on the default. Isn't that the preferred behaviour? i.e. > > shouldn't we just change CSS' default? > > See comment 6 for fantasai's explanation of why it would be against CSS WG > policy to change the default for list-style-position, but is ok by them if it > is done in the default style sheet. > > Of course, the text-align change just for li can only be done in the default > style sheet. (In reply to comment #10) > So what will the change be? CSS Lists Level 3 has accepted the position that the CSS default, list-style-position:outside, will now mean that the marker position is dependent on the list element direction, not the list item direction. (Backward compatibility was decided not to be a factor because browser behavior was not interoperable anyway.) It would still be best if the HTML5 default style sheet had li { text-align: match-parent; }
Actually, that decision hasn't undergone CSSWG review; it's so far just Tab's proposal. (I think the list-style-position definition will undergo changes as it gets reviewed more closely by various members of www-style. It is not stable yet.)
mass-move component to LC1
Hey Tab, can you look at this and let me know what you think the right thing is here? Thanks. Reassign to me if you think something needs to change.
This bug is waiting on further action from Tab. (In reply to comment #16) > Hey Tab, can you look at this and let me know what you think the right thing is > here? Thanks. Reassign to me if you think something needs to change.
(In reply to comment #17) > This bug is waiting on further action from Tab. > > (In reply to comment #16) > > Hey Tab, can you look at this and let me know what you think the right thing is > > here? Thanks. Reassign to me if you think something needs to change. I'm waiting on review of the Lists spec in the CSS group before asking for a change to the HTML default style sheet. This section of the Lists spec hasn't been vetted by the people who'd be implementing it yet.
This bug was cloned to create bug 17770 as part of operation convergence.
EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the Editor to reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the Tracker Issue; or you may create a Tracker Issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For more details, see this document: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html Status: Additional Information Needed Change Description: No spec change. Rationale: Waiting for information from Tab, as described in <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17770#c2>.