Meeting minutes
New PR Triage
<github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
melsumner: We want to wait on the "add support for namerequired" issue
… this is related to the listbox, want to look at a few other approaches
New Issue Triage
<github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
spectranaut_: Deep dive added to the menu element proposal
spectranaut_: Question from the web: "What does it mean when a role has no allowed accessibility child roles section"
jamesn: sounds like a good first issue, as long as we know the actual right answer.
spectranaut_: yes, peter answered it.
WPT Open PRs
<github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
Deep Dive planning
<github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
dgrogan: Chrome is working on these new attributes, and we have some idea on how to make this screen reader and keyboard friendly.
… hoping to have a discussion on our proposal, thought it would be appropriate for a deep dive
jamesn: sounds like a good idea, even if we had a week with a light agenda we could do it in a standard meeting.
… but a deep dive would be good.
spectranaut_: can we schedule this May?
dgrogan: Next week works for us.
dgrogan: I'd like Scott's input here, apple thoughts would be amazing.
CSS scroll-marker-group modes && WAI-ARIA patterns
spectranaut_: I was looking at this this morning and tabbing wasn't working as expected. I'm wondering if I am on the right version
spectranaut_: When I tab, it goes to the other focusable content in the tabs that shouldn't appear
… and the scroll marker doesn't update
@daniil: sounds like a bug
Daniel: I don't think this was happening to me, this was working right when I tested.
Daniel: this resembles the expected tab behavior, nothing to say at this point.
… looks good to me, it works.
<np-at> I'm getting the same behavior as valerie on macos with the latest canary build
jamesn: I am not sure if I am seeing the feature correctly, I see some bars appearing.
@daniil: that looks as expected, the bar is a scroll bar.
… this is the expected behavior, authors can hide these if they like
Daniel: Now noticing some differences between tab order and screen reader order.
… I would have expected that after the tabs I would go to the headings, but the tab order isn't matching the screen reader order.
Daniel: If you want to get to the tab panel, you have to arrow up, with is counter intuitive
jamesn: I have a lot of questions, but I assume a lot of them are answered in the spec
… such as name calculation for the markers, etc
@daniil: These calculations are documented in the spec link you can find from the explainer.
jamesn: In the tab mode, the scroll marker psuedo-element name calculation is what I am looking for.
@daniil: we only define the role for that.
jamesn: The browser seems to be using the name for either the heading or title of the surrounding div.
jamesn: This seems fine, but I want to understand where it is coming from.
@daniil: This would be folloing the normal rules.
jamesn: I don't think there is a defined rule for this, it needs to be defined.
jamesn: I'm seeing it in devtools.
jamesn: Its coming from the surrounding div title, so this needs to be defined, and shouldn't be entirely reliant on title.
@noah: it looks like this is coming from the surrounding content.
@noah: it picks it up from aria-label
jamesn: the name calculation needs to be defined.
jamesn: Another question: are you setting aria-selected on the selected tab or now? (or expanded)
@daniil: yes it is being set.
@noah: does aria-details use name as a fallback?
melsumner: this seems strange.
@noah: this might be a bug
spectranaut_: Do we need more time now or can we move on?
jamesn: I have other concerns, I have some weird behavior with find on page
… it switches the tab but the controls don't switch
@daniil: sounds like a bug.
@jamesn: I still have some concerns that people may use this wrong
… but that isn't the fault of the feature
@daniil: please review the spec when you can.
How should alt text be exposed?
spectranaut_: there is a mathml alttext that isn't well supported or defined.
… this is asking for a fallback for when mathml is not supported
… the question here is "are there cases where the label should complement rather than fall back"
jamesn: I think I aggree that the label or alt-text could be fallback content for when mathml is not supported.
… couldn't they use description already for when they want it to supplement?
jamesn: I don't care which are the fallback and which are the supplemental, as long as both exist.
np-at: I'm wondering if there is any danger or issue with aria-label's behavior being different here.
<melsumner> strong agree with Noah here
jamesn: That would mean that label should always be an addition.
<spectranaut_> Jacques: This is kind of tangental, one thing I've heard that is hard from the author, if there is a lot of math content, not using mathml, rendering it in html to make it pretty, but they want to use mathml instead, it is hard to provide a good experience for screenreaders that do support it and don't support it
<spectranaut_> Jacques: I don't think the alt text solves that, but it would be nice to have one
<spectranaut_> Jacques: if a screen reader doesn't support mathml at all, rendering in html is better. Possible better than one giant alt text for the whole blob
<spectranaut_> spectranaut_: like canvas fallback
<spectranaut_> melsumner:
<Zakim> melsumner, you wanted to ask if someone needs to use MathML and a SR, wouldn't they use a SR that supports MathML already?
<spectranaut_> Jacques: there is a narrator on windows doesn't support mathml
<spectranaut_> Jacques: there are microsoft product are trying to support other screen readers
<spectranaut_> melsumner: I strongly believe we should not use aria-label as a fall back
np-at: I think mathl content works as inline text, and inline text + aria label is already one of the exceptions
… or at least that is how some screen readers treat it.
… for the paragraph role or other inline content, it may ignore the label sometimes
… I'm not sure what the standard behavior is here.