17:02:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:02:15 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/30-aria-irc
17:02:15 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:02:16 <jamesn> Agendabot, find agenda
17:02:16 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:02:16 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/690d057f-db6d-4169-b13f-68d7f1336b59/20260430T130000/
17:02:16 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:02:16 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-04-23+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
17:02:16 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://is.gd/dHBUZx
17:02:16 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:02:17 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:02:19 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:02:58 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:04:38 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
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17:04:54 <katez> present+
17:04:55 <np-at> present+
17:04:56 <melsumner> present+
17:04:59 <Jacques> scribe+
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17:05:25 <Jacques> zakim, next item
17:05:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-04-23+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:25 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:05:31 <CurtBellew> present+
17:06:15 <Jacques> melsumner: We want to wait on the "add support for namerequired" issue
17:06:43 <Daniel> present+
17:06:45 <Jacques> ... this is related to the listbox, want to look at a few other approaches
17:08:23 <Jacques> zakim, next item
17:08:23 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://is.gd/dHBUZx -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:08:23 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:09:32 <Jacques> spectranaut_: Deep dive added to the menu element proposal
17:11:16 <Jacques> spectranaut_: Question from the web: "What does it mean when a role has no allowed accessibility child roles section"
17:11:36 <Jacques> jamesn: sounds like a good first issue, as long as we know the actual right answer.
17:11:47 <Jacques> spectranaut_: yes, peter answered it.
17:12:51 <Jacques> zakim, next item
17:12:51 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:12:51 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:13:30 <Jacques> zakim, next item
17:13:30 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, Jacques
17:13:38 <Jacques> zakim, close this item
17:13:38 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:13:39 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:13:39 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:13:41 <Jacques> zakim, next item
17:13:41 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:13:41 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
17:14:28 <Jacques> dgrogan: Chrome is working on these new attributes, and we have some idea on how to make this screen reader and keyboard friendly.
17:14:52 <Jacques> ... hoping to have a discussion on our proposal, thought it would be appropriate for a deep dive
17:15:19 <Jacques> jamesn: sounds like a good idea, even if we had a week with a light agenda we could do it in a standard meeting.
17:15:25 <Jacques> ... but a deep dive would be good.
17:15:52 <Jacques> spectranaut_: can we schedule this May?
17:16:44 <Jacques> dgrogan: Next week works for us.
17:17:40 <Jacques> dgrogan: I'd like Scott's input here, apple thoughts would be amazing.
17:18:20 <Jacques> zakim, next item
17:18:20 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, Jacques
17:18:32 <spectranaut_> agenda?
17:19:49 <jamesn> agenda+ [CSS scroll-marker-group modes && WAI-ARIA patterns](https://github.com/w3c/css-aam/issues/18)
17:19:49 <jamesn> agenda+[How should alt text be exposed?](https://github.com/w3c/mathml-aam/issues/37)
17:19:56 <Jacques> zakim, next item
17:19:56 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [CSS scroll-marker-group modes && WAI-ARIA patterns](https://github.com/w3c/css-aam/issues/18) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:20:10 <spectranaut_> q?
17:21:19 <Jacques> spectranaut_: I was looking at this this morning and tabbing wasn't working as expected. I'm wondering if I am on the right version
17:22:10 <Jacques> spectranaut_: When I tab, it goes to the other focusable content in the tabs that shouldn't appear
17:22:18 <Daniel> q+
17:22:18 <Jacques> ... and the scroll marker doesn't update
17:22:37 <Jacques> @daniil: sounds like a bug
17:22:56 <spectranaut_> ack Daniel
17:23:23 <Jacques> Daniel: I don't think this was happening to me, this was working right when I tested.
17:24:21 <Jacques> Daniel: this resembles the expected tab behavior, nothing to say at this point.
17:24:34 <Jacques> ... looks good to me, it works.
17:25:02 <np-at> I'm getting the same behavior as valerie on macos with the latest canary build
17:25:18 <Jacques> jamesn: I am not sure if I am seeing the feature correctly, I see some bars appearing.
17:26:32 <Jacques> @daniil: that looks as expected, the bar is a scroll bar.
17:26:52 <Daniel> q+
17:26:59 <Jacques> ... this is the expected behavior, authors can hide these if they like
17:27:01 <spectranaut_> ack Daniel
17:27:21 <Jacques> Daniel: Now noticing some differences between tab order and screen reader order.
17:28:50 <Jacques> ... I would have expected that after the tabs I would go to the headings, but the tab order isn't matching the screen reader order.
17:29:33 <Jacques> Daniel: If you want to get to the tab panel, you have to arrow up, with is counter intuitive
17:30:14 <Jacques> jamesn: I have a lot of questions, but I assume a lot of them are answered in the spec
17:30:22 <Jacques> ... such as name calculation for the markers, etc
17:31:03 <Jacques> @daniil: These calculations are documented in the spec link you can find from the explainer.
17:32:36 <Jacques> jamesn: In the tab mode, the scroll marker psuedo-element name calculation is what I am looking for.
17:32:56 <Jacques> @daniil: we only define the role for that.
17:33:53 <Jacques> jamesn: The browser seems to be using the name for either the heading or title of the surrounding div.
17:34:11 <Jacques> jamesn: This seems fine, but I want to understand where it is coming from.
17:34:30 <Jacques> @daniil: This would be folloing the normal rules.
17:34:55 <Jacques> jamesn: I don't think there is a defined rule for this, it needs to be defined.
17:35:53 <Jacques> jamesn: I'm seeing it in devtools.
17:37:10 <Jacques> jamesn: Its coming from the surrounding div title, so this needs to be defined, and shouldn't be entirely reliant on title.
17:38:03 <Jacques> @noah: it looks like this is coming from the surrounding content.
17:38:30 <Jacques> @noah: it picks it up from aria-label
17:39:20 <Jacques> jamesn: the name calculation needs to be defined.
17:40:32 <Jacques> jamesn: Another question: are you setting aria-selected on the selected tab or now? (or expanded)
17:41:00 <Jacques> @daniil: yes it is being set.
17:42:36 <Jacques> @noah: does aria-details use name as a fallback?
17:42:57 <Jacques> melsumner: this seems strange.
17:43:09 <Jacques> @noah: this might be a bug
17:43:46 <Jacques> spectranaut_: Do we need more time now or can we move on?
17:44:25 <Jacques> jamesn: I have other concerns, I have some weird behavior with find on page
17:44:37 <Jacques> ... it switches the tab but the controls don't switch
17:45:10 <Jacques> @daniil: sounds like a bug.
17:46:15 <Jacques> @jamesn: I still have some concerns that people may use this wrong
17:46:21 <Jacques> ... but that isn't the fault of the feature
17:47:12 <Jacques> @daniil: please review the spec when you can.
17:47:15 <Jacques> zakim, next item
17:47:15 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [How should alt text be exposed?](https://github.com/w3c/mathml-aam/issues/37) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:48:23 <Jacques> spectranaut_: there is a mathml alttext that isn't well supported or defined.
17:48:41 <Jacques> ... this is asking for a fallback for when mathml is not supported
17:49:12 <jamesn> q+
17:49:16 <Jacques> ... the question here is "are there cases where the label should complement rather than fall back"
17:49:53 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:50:20 <Jacques> jamesn: I think I aggree that the label or alt-text could be fallback content for when mathml is not supported.
17:50:51 <Jacques> ... couldn't they use description already for when they want it to supplement?
17:51:18 <np-at> q+
17:51:21 <Jacques> jamesn: I don't care which are the fallback and which are the supplemental, as long as both exist.
17:51:24 <spectranaut_> ack np-at
17:52:01 <Jacques> np-at: I'm wondering if there is any danger or issue with aria-label's behavior being different here.
17:52:03 <melsumner> strong agree with Noah here
17:52:42 <Jacques> jamesn: That would mean that label should always be an addition.
17:52:48 <Jacques> q+
17:53:42 <spectranaut_> Jacques: This is kind of tangental, one thing I've heard that is hard from the author, if there is a lot of math content, not using mathml, rendering it in html to make it pretty, but they want to use mathml instead, it is hard to provide a good experience for screenreaders that do support it and don't support it
17:54:00 <spectranaut_> Jacques: I don't think the alt text solves that, but it would be nice to have one
17:54:58 <spectranaut_> Jacques: if a screen reader doesn't support mathml at all, rendering in html is better. Possible better than one giant alt text for the whole blob
17:55:38 <melsumner> q+ to ask if someone needs to use MathML and a SR, wouldn't they use a SR that supports MathML already?
17:55:41 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_: like canvas fallback
17:55:46 <spectranaut_> melsumner:
17:55:50 <spectranaut_> ack melsumner
17:55:50 <Zakim> melsumner, you wanted to ask if someone needs to use MathML and a SR, wouldn't they use a SR that supports MathML already?
17:56:08 <spectranaut_> Jacques: there is a narrator on windows doesn't support mathml
17:56:43 <spectranaut_> Jacques: there are microsoft product are trying to support other screen readers
17:57:12 <melsumner> ack me
17:57:14 <spectranaut_> melsumner: I strongly believe we should not use aria-label as a fall back
17:57:56 <np-at> q+
17:58:08 <Jacques> scribe+
17:58:23 <spectranaut_> ack Jacques
17:58:28 <spectranaut_> ack np-at
17:59:07 <Jacques> np-at: I think mathl content works as inline text, and inline text + aria label is already one of the exceptions
17:59:18 <Jacques> ... or at least that is how some screen readers treat it.
18:00:04 <Jacques> ... for the paragraph role or other inline content, it may ignore the label sometimes
18:00:15 <Jacques> ... I'm not sure what the standard behavior is here.
18:00:44 <Jacques> zakim, end this meeing
18:00:44 <Zakim> I don't understand 'end this meeing', Jacques
18:00:47 <Jacques> zakim, end meeing
18:00:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'end meeing', Jacques
18:01:19 <Jacques> zakim, end meeting
18:01:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been cyns, filippo-zorzi, katez, np-at, melsumner, CurtBellew, Daniel
18:01:21 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:01:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/30-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:29 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Jacques; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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