Meeting minutes
2.4.2 Page Titled
<JJ> https://
<Joe_Humbert> presemt+
<JJ> w3c/
JJ: checking to see if anyone has any insights on the Page Titled SC
JJ: no updates for Page Titled
2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured (Minimum)
<JJ> w3c/
JJ: we had a poll asking if keyboard focus should consider other assistive technology, and poll responders mostly felt that other AT should also be considered for focus not obscured
JJ: no updates needed further for assignees for focus not obscured
2.5.3 Label in Name
<JJ> w3c/
JJ: is still assigned to Label in Name and may have time to work on it in a week or so
JJ: key points for label in name, dealing with grouped elements, when it something a control, etc.
2.5.7 Dragging Movements
<JJ> w3c/
JJ: confusing on when it something dragging vs pointer events
JJ: there can be many single tap alternatives to the dragging movement
JJ: panning on a map, zooming, may have the zoom in out button alternatives to the gestures
JJ: adding shoobe01 to assignment for the dragging movements sc
2.5.8 Target Size (Minimum)
JJ: had a poll where most of group agreed that we should increase minimum target sizes from 24 to larger
JJ: Detlev voted no because this would not harmonize with other guidance
JJ: wondering if it's a good approach to change the normative guidance ?
shoobe01: added research as a comment to the target size ticket
<JJ> shoobe: research dump w3c/
shoobe01: research discusses pitfalls like scaling
JJ: in touch with folks working on WCAG 3 and asking us to do a review of WCAG 3
JJ: we may be able to have an impact on WCAG 3 and their related target size requirements
JJ: 5 years maybe until WCAG 3 finished but we could have a big impact since WCAG standard last so long
JJ: JJ will review WCAG3 and bring ideas to the group about diving work, maybe in google doc or GitHub issues and then bring that back to WCAG3 task force and have a positive impact there
JJ: in WCAG 2 mobile make drafts and get feedback and after our second draft is up for review
3.1.1 Language of Page
<JJ> w3c/
JJ: we have open PR about lang not possible on all operating system, iOS vs Android, etc. looking at platform level if lang supported, Flutter would also need to meet requirement, or would fail it if they dont support the lang
JJ: checking if there are any comments or input from Tanya
Tanya starting on new draft next week
3.1.2 Language of Parts
<JJ> w3c/
JJ: feedback on PR most people voted on this one and it's good to go
Tanya asking how to proceed on lang of parts
<JJ> Existing draft: w3c/
JJ: netlify and markdown technical parts may need updates
JJ: more deployments once the PRs are finished soon
shoobe01: issues with netlify links, and talking about workaround to read HTML to approve
JJ: may need to explain about how to install NPM dependences to generate HTML
JJ: will be adding guidance about GitHub how to review branch with work shown in your browser
Software Layers
JJ: software layers may need a draft then expanding by more people
<JJ> https://
JJ: shoobe01 did some updates in the miro file
shoobe01 discussing the Miro diagram boxes, lines, simplifying the terms in the boxes about the software layers
shoobe01 says diagram is open for discussion
shoobe01 asking for feedback / discussion on the software layers diagram
JJ: how will we show this in our guidance in an accessible format
Miro may be pretty accessible
JJ: showing a web accessibility bridge diagram on a google presentation
JJ: shows DOM, then ARIA, then a11y tree, then AT, then user
JJ: showing Android a11y bridge slide about Semantics then a11y node info, then a11y service, then AT, then user
JJ: showing iOS a11y bridge , a11y modifiers, ui a11y, ... more
JJ: showing cross platform a11y bridge slide about flutter react native .net MAUI
JJ: Semantics tree, a11y bridge, ally node info
JJ: hybrid a11y bridge slide, native + web view all the different native platforms plus web views
JJ: will put these slides in the GitHub or slack
Yes that looks great, thanks!
JJ: key insight is each layer increase your chance to fall down the a11y bridge, the more layers you add the more problems could happen for a11y
JJ: will share all the slides soon
yeah I think it's good!
yeah I think it would help
JJ: asking if these diagrams would help in our guidance
RobW thinks diagrams are great wonders how useful they are for regular people :)
RobW says they look complex
RobW how many people really need to know about the semantics rendering into an a11y tree
<tayef> Yes, I think it would help to have the diagrams. I do agree with Rob and wondering how they can be "simplified"
JJ: maybe it could be in expand collapse so it's not always visible by default
JJ: maybe we could offer simplified version of that for our guidance so it's not so technical
JJ: diagrams shown may have been too deep platform level
JJ: folks may not be really worried about how platform software is rendering the a11y stuff
shoobe01 saying these complex diagrams could be down at the bottom somewhere like how the WCAG docs can get very technical explaining SCs
RobW android diagram could be confident how that works but iOS is all hidden so it's more difficult to no the accuracy of the iOS diagram, apple says dont assume how SwiftUI works because it changes from one version to the other of iOS, something might go away for iOS without us knowing because Apple changes
JJ: android is open source so it's easier to know the specifics vs iOS closed source
JJ: maybe iOS shows more as a black box to handle that issue
Tanya wants to remind the goal of exercise of drawing the diagram is to show how the layers are connected and how we call them so it was to understand among ourselves how the components are connected to each other and drawing the lines of who is responsible for exceptions etc in WCAG
Tanya so we can explain who is responsible to auditors, people reading our guidance
JJ: a11y bridge diagrams help see where developers have ability to modify and were they can stop influencing things like on android a11y node info but in a11y service like talkback then developer no longer has control there
JJ: like web html you can code it properly in HTML and ARIA but may work differently in each browser OS even though you did the right code
JJ: diagrams may need to help explain to developer where they have influence e.g. for fixing a11y issues meeting SCs
JJ: says we're done :)
JJ: we have lot of data in miro, comments, diagrams, will share next week maybe
JJ: need to make some final decisions on how our readers will interpret the software layers, responsibility of developers or authors, excepts applicable in mobile apps vs web apps etc
JJ: says for us to look at issues to contribute, think about layers
JJ: may not have a meeting next week due to an event
JJ: so we have 2 weeks to make progress on this
Tanya asking if anyone assigned to definition of software layers
JJ: asking if someone would like to work on definition
JJ: sub definitions of the diagram parts
RobW is happy to get involved on the definitions
JJ: explaining may need to link GitHub account to w3c website
JJ: if you are not accessing GitHub let JJ know
JJ: no meeting next week ,spend hour working on our issues