12:59:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:59:33 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/04/01-matf-irc
12:59:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:59:34 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:59:36 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 1 April 2026
12:59:36 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:59:43 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 1 April 2026
12:59:48 <JJ> chair+
12:59:53 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.2 Page Titled
12:59:58 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured (Minimum)
13:00:03 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.3 Label in Name
13:00:08 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.7 Dragging Movements
13:00:12 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.8 Target Size (Minimum)
13:00:18 <JJ> agenda+ 3.1.1 Language of Page
13:00:25 <JJ> agenda+ 3.1.2 Language of Parts
13:00:35 <JJ> agenda+ Software Layers
13:01:06 <tayef> tayef has joined #matf
13:02:50 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
13:03:34 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
13:04:10 <Tanya> present+
13:04:39 <tayef> present+
13:05:02 <pauljadam> present+
13:05:13 <JJ> zakim, nominate a scribe
13:05:13 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose tayef
13:05:34 <JJ> zakim, nominate a scribe
13:05:34 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pauljadam
13:05:57 <JJ> scribe: pauljadam
13:06:08 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:06:08 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- 2.4.2 Page Titled -- taken up [from JJ]
13:06:10 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #matf
13:06:12 <Tim> Tim has joined #matf
13:06:12 <RobW> RobW has joined #matf
13:06:15 <RobW> present+
13:06:20 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ad334782-11dc-4a43-9dbe-49b97bd800fa/20260401T090000/
13:06:21 <Joe_Humbert> presemt+
13:06:27 <Tim> present+
13:06:55 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/9
13:07:59 <pauljadam> JJ: checking to see if anyone has any insights on the Page Titled SC
13:08:23 <pauljadam> JJ: no updates for Page Titled
13:08:29 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:08:29 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.4.11 Focus Not Obscured (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]
13:08:38 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/52
13:09:53 <pauljadam> JJ: we had a poll asking if keyboard focus should consider other assistive technology, and poll responders  mostly felt that other AT should also be considered for focus not obscured
13:10:16 <shoobe01> q+
13:10:33 <pauljadam> JJ: no updates needed further for assignees for focus not obscured
13:10:38 <JJ> ack shoobe
13:12:34 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:12:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.5.3 Label in Name -- taken up [from JJ]
13:12:42 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/39
13:13:39 <pauljadam> JJ: is still assigned to Label in Name and may have time to work on it in a week or so
13:14:20 <pauljadam> JJ: key points for label in name, dealing with grouped elements, when it something a control, etc.
13:14:31 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:14:31 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 2.5.7 Dragging Movements -- taken up [from JJ]
13:14:38 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/53
13:15:11 <pauljadam> JJ: confusing on when it something dragging vs pointer events
13:15:29 <pauljadam> JJ: there can be many single tap alternatives to the dragging movement
13:16:05 <pauljadam> JJ: panning on a map, zooming, may have the zoom in out button alternatives to the gestures
13:16:56 <pauljadam> JJ: adding shoobe01 to assignment for the dragging movements sc
13:17:17 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:17:17 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- 2.5.8 Target Size (Minimum) -- taken up [from JJ]
13:17:27 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/10#issuecomment-4069143395
13:17:56 <pauljadam> JJ: had a poll where most of group agreed that we should increase minimum target sizes from 24 to larger
13:17:58 <shoobe01> q+
13:18:30 <pauljadam> JJ: Detlev voted no because this would not harmonize with other guidance
13:18:58 <pauljadam> JJ: wondering if it's a good approach to change the normative guidance ?
13:19:06 <JJ> ack shoobe
13:19:52 <pauljadam> shoobe01: added research as a comment to the target size ticket
13:19:53 <JJ> shoobe: research dump https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/10#issuecomment-3997891523
13:20:45 <pauljadam> shoobe01: research discusses pitfalls like scaling
13:21:29 <pauljadam> JJ: in touch with folks working on WCAG 3 and asking us to do a review of WCAG 3
13:21:50 <pauljadam> JJ: we may be able to have an impact on WCAG 3 and their related target size requirements
13:22:20 <pauljadam> JJ: 5 years maybe until WCAG 3 finished but we could have a big impact since WCAG standard last so long
13:23:10 <pauljadam> JJ: JJ will review WCAG3 and bring ideas to the group about diving work, maybe in google doc or GitHub issues and then bring that back to WCAG3 task force and have a positive impact there
13:23:39 <pauljadam> JJ: in WCAG 2 mobile make drafts and get feedback and after our second draft is up for review
13:24:27 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:24:27 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- 3.1.1 Language of Page -- taken up [from JJ]
13:24:34 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/14
13:25:36 <pauljadam> JJ: we have open PR about lang not possible on all operating system, iOS vs Android,  etc. looking at platform level if lang supported, Flutter would also need to meet requirement, or would fail it if they dont support the lang
13:26:12 <pauljadam> JJ: checking if there are any comments or input from Tanya
13:26:42 <pauljadam> Tanya starting on new draft next week
13:26:56 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:26:56 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- 3.1.2 Language of Parts -- taken up [from JJ]
13:27:09 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/15
13:27:44 <pauljadam> JJ: feedback on PR most people voted on this one and it's good to go
13:28:27 <pauljadam> Tanya asking how to proceed on lang of parts
13:28:27 <JJ> Existing draft: https://github.com/w3c/matf/pull/278
13:29:00 <pauljadam> JJ: netlify and markdown technical parts may need updates
13:29:04 <shoobe01> q+
13:29:23 <pauljadam> JJ: more deployments once the PRs are finished soon
13:29:32 <JJ> ack shoobe
13:30:12 <pauljadam> shoobe01: issues with netlify links, and talking about workaround to read HTML to approve
13:30:42 <pauljadam> JJ: may need to explain about how to install NPM dependences to generate HTML
13:31:07 <pauljadam> JJ: will be adding guidance about GitHub how to review branch with work shown in your browser
13:31:25 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:31:25 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- Software Layers -- taken up [from JJ]
13:32:04 <shoobe01> q+
13:32:05 <pauljadam> JJ: software layers may need a draft then expanding by more people
13:32:12 <JJ> https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVGCgwkGY=/
13:32:20 <pauljadam> JJ: shoobe01 did some updates in the miro file
13:32:20 <JJ> ack shoobe
13:33:09 <pauljadam> shoobe01 discussing the Miro diagram boxes, lines, simplifying the terms in the boxes about the software layers
13:33:26 <pauljadam> shoobe01 says diagram is open for discussion
13:33:57 <pauljadam> shoobe01 asking for feedback / discussion on the software layers diagram
13:34:18 <pauljadam> JJ: how will we show this in our guidance in an accessible format
13:34:28 <pauljadam> Miro may be pretty accessible
13:34:55 <pauljadam> JJ: showing a web accessibility bridge diagram on a google presentation
13:35:12 <pauljadam> JJ: shows DOM, then ARIA, then a11y tree, then AT, then user
13:35:38 <pauljadam> JJ: showing Android a11y bridge slide about Semantics then a11y node info, then a11y service, then AT, then user
13:35:58 <pauljadam> JJ: showing iOS a11y bridge , a11y modifiers, ui a11y, ... more
13:36:22 <pauljadam> JJ: showing cross platform a11y bridge slide about flutter react native .net MAUI
13:36:46 <pauljadam> JJ: Semantics tree, a11y bridge, ally node info
13:37:07 <pauljadam> JJ: hybrid a11y bridge slide, native + web view all the different native platforms plus web views
13:37:30 <pauljadam> JJ: will put these slides in the GitHub or slack
13:37:35 <pauljadam> Yes that looks great, thanks!
13:38:12 <pauljadam> JJ: key insight is each layer increase your chance to fall down the a11y bridge, the more layers you add the more problems could happen for a11y
13:38:34 <pauljadam> JJ: will share all the slides soon
13:38:44 <pauljadam> yeah I think it's good!
13:38:58 <pauljadam> yeah I think it would help
13:39:16 <RobW> q+
13:39:16 <pauljadam> JJ: asking if these diagrams would help in our guidance
13:39:28 <JJ> ack RobW
13:39:48 <pauljadam> RobW thinks diagrams are great wonders how useful they are for regular people :)
13:39:56 <pauljadam> RobW says they look complex
13:40:13 <pauljadam> RobW how many people really need to know about the semantics rendering into an a11y tree
13:40:15 <tayef> Yes, I think it would help to have the diagrams. I do agree with Rob and wondering how they can be "simplified"
13:40:27 <pauljadam> JJ: maybe it could be in expand collapse so it's not always visible by default
13:40:49 <shoobe01> q+
13:40:51 <pauljadam> JJ: maybe we could offer simplified version of that for our guidance so it's not so technical
13:41:10 <pauljadam> JJ: diagrams shown may have been too deep platform level
13:41:24 <RobW> q+
13:41:31 <pauljadam> JJ: folks may not be really worried about how platform software is rendering the a11y stuff
13:41:33 <JJ> ack shoobe
13:41:47 <Tanya> q+
13:42:13 <pauljadam> shoobe01 saying these complex diagrams could be down at the bottom somewhere like how the WCAG docs can get very technical explaining SCs
13:42:18 <JJ> q?
13:42:22 <JJ> ack RobW
13:43:35 <pauljadam> RobW android diagram could be confident how that works but iOS is all hidden so it's more difficult to no the accuracy of the iOS diagram, apple says dont assume how SwiftUI works because it changes from one version to the other of iOS, something might go away for iOS without us knowing because Apple changes
13:43:58 <pauljadam> JJ: android is open source so it's easier to know the specifics vs iOS closed source
13:44:19 <pauljadam> JJ: maybe iOS shows more as a black box to handle that issue
13:44:21 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:45:21 <pauljadam> Tanya wants to remind the goal of exercise of drawing the diagram is to show how the layers are connected and how we call them so it was to understand among ourselves how the components are connected to each other and drawing the lines of who is responsible for exceptions etc in WCAG
13:45:44 <pauljadam> Tanya so we can explain who is responsible to auditors, people reading our guidance
13:46:46 <pauljadam> JJ: a11y bridge diagrams help see where developers have ability to modify and were they can stop influencing things like on android a11y node info but in a11y service like talkback then developer no longer has control there
13:47:30 <pauljadam> JJ: like web html you can code it properly in HTML and ARIA but may work differently in each browser OS even though you did the right code
13:47:53 <JJ> q?
13:47:59 <pauljadam> JJ: diagrams may need to help explain to developer where they have influence e.g. for fixing a11y issues meeting SCs
13:48:11 <pauljadam> JJ: says we're done :)
13:48:43 <pauljadam> JJ: we have lot of data in miro, comments, diagrams, will share next week maybe
13:49:28 <pauljadam> JJ: need to make some final decisions on how our readers will interpret the software layers, responsibility of developers or authors, excepts applicable in mobile apps vs web apps etc
13:50:00 <pauljadam> JJ: says for us to look at issues to contribute, think about layers
13:50:12 <pauljadam> JJ: may not have a meeting next week due to an event
13:50:27 <pauljadam> JJ: so we have 2 weeks to make progress on this
13:50:50 <pauljadam> Tanya asking if anyone assigned to definition of software layers
13:51:06 <pauljadam> JJ: asking if someone would like to work on definition
13:51:38 <pauljadam> JJ: sub definitions of the diagram parts
13:52:04 <pauljadam> RobW is happy to get involved on the definitions
13:52:21 <pauljadam> JJ: explaining may need to link GitHub account to w3c website
13:52:46 <pauljadam> JJ: if you are not accessing GitHub let JJ know
13:53:17 <pauljadam> JJ: no meeting next week ,spend hour working on our issues
13:53:58 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
13:53:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tanya, tayef, pauljadam, RobW, Tim
13:54:16 <JJ> present+ Tim
13:54:27 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
13:54:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/04/01-matf-minutes.html JJ
13:55:56 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
13:55:56 <RRSAgent> I see no action items