IRC log of pmwg on 2025-11-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-pmwg-irc
03:43:24 [shiestyle]
rrsagent, draft minutes
03:43:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-pmwg-minutes.html shiestyle
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04:50:09 [ivan]
s/present+ Junko Kamata/present+/
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04:53:11 [ivan]
s/thepublisher/the publisher/
04:55:02 [ivan]
present+ bobby
04:55:13 [ivan]
present+ charlesl
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present+
05:00:39 [ivan]
s/previosu/previous/
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present+
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s/differet/different/
05:02:31 [shiestyle]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:02:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-pmwg-minutes.html shiestyle
05:03:09 [shiestyle]
zakim, start the meeting
05:03:09 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
05:03:11 [Zakim]
Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
05:03:29 [shiestyle]
present+
05:03:40 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
05:03:40 [Zakim]
Present: mgarrish, shiestyle, CharlesL, toshiakikoike, gpellegrino, MasakazuKitahara, duga, wendyreid, tzviya, Junko, Kamata, jroque, Hadrien, Gardeur, DaleRogers, bobby, ivan
05:03:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see shiestyle, toshiakikoike, MasakazuKitahara, rdeltour, RRSAgent, gpellegrino, wendyreid, CharlesL, Zakim, ikkwong, marisa, mgarrish, denkeni, fantasai, tzviya, ivan
05:03:44 [gpellegrino]
present+
05:04:14 [wendyreid]
present+
05:04:46 [ivan]
s/present+ Hadrien Gardeur/present+ Hadrien/
05:05:10 [ivan]
present+ rdeltour
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present+ ikkwong
05:05:34 [ivan]
present+ marisa
05:05:36 [Hadrien]
present+
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05:07:29 [rdeltour]
present+
05:07:30 [ivan]
present+ magnus
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05:09:42 [MasakazuKitahara]
present+
05:11:08 [duga]
present+
05:11:08 [ivan]
present+ seth2
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+
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05:15:59 [wendyreid]
present+ Bobby
05:16:10 [wendyreid]
Topic: Updating Publication Manifest
05:16:19 [LaurentLM]
present+
05:16:54 [shiestyle]
scribe+ LaurentLM
05:17:00 [ivan]
-> Presentation slides https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Uj25pywoG1Nwo2uNiloW15YkijxB8GVtssugUjPqzWc/edit?slide=id.p#slide=id.p
05:17:33 [LaurentLM]
wendyreid: let's talk about Web Publication Manifests.
05:18:54 [LaurentLM]
... there is a W3C version and a Readium version. There are subtle differences. More implementations on the Readium side. Time for us to bring them closer together, and make sure that the spec is in good shape.
05:19:30 [LaurentLM]
Hadrien: presentation of how Readium Web Publications are actually used.
05:19:58 [jkamata]
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05:20:38 [LaurentLM]
... History: starts with the AHL WG in 2012. Objective = do renditions differently.
05:21:25 [LaurentLM]
... Then for EPUB 3.1, Browser Friendly Format (BFF). Two different approaches: HTML (Dave), JSON (Hadrien). There were prototypes.
05:22:57 [LaurentLM]
... in 2017, the Readium people defined the Readium Web Publication Manifest. It was for a SDK we called Readium 2 at the time, which became later Readium Mobile. Objective: hiding differences between different types of publications (EPUB 2, 3 ...)
05:23:54 [LaurentLM]
... in 2018, profiles of Web Publications for audiobooks and comics (Divina, Digital Visual Narrative).
05:24:28 [LaurentLM]
... Same JSON base structure used for catalogs of publications = OPDS 2.
05:27:22 [LaurentLM]
... 1) RWPM as an internal format for Readium toolkits (Mobile on iOS and Android; Web; and Desktop). Conversion to RWPM (Readium Web Publication Manifest) in the reading app. Parsing (from interchange formats implemented in Swift, Kotlin, Go, Ts).
05:29:54 [LaurentLM]
... More than 200 mobile apps are using Readium Mobile -> RWPM.
05:29:58 [LaurentLM]
... Gained adoption as a distribution format -> audiobooks (stream or download) with a package format and LCP support.
05:30:14 [LaurentLM]
... Also used for protecting PDF with LCP.
05:31:44 [wendyreid]
q+
05:32:01 [LaurentLM]
... Recently, interest in its generic profile, in the education world, by Brazil and UNICEF, due to limitations of interactivity in EPUB (due to other expectations like pagination and user control).
05:34:27 [LaurentLM]
... 3) As an archival format, by the Korean government, for archiving webtoons, along with a new identifier to avoid using a large number of ISBN. Felt that EPUB was too complex for their need. Turned RWPM in its Divina flavour as a national standard (TTA). Now testing the water as an ISO standard.
05:34:47 [LaurentLM]
s/Gained/2) Gained/
05:36:25 [LaurentLM]
4) As a pivot format. Presentation made this year by Hachette at the Digital Publishing Summit (EDRLab, Dublin). They want to create a digital-first workflow, using RWPM as a pivot format before sending to print and EPUB production.
05:36:38 [wendyreid]
s/4)/... 4)/
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05:37:38 [LaurentLM]
... The print version of reflow publication can be automatic. FXL publications can be done via import of the RWPM in InDesign.
05:39:35 [LaurentLM]
... 5) As a workflow format. As an easy way to support extraction information from EPUB files. Now in Readium CLI (Command Line Interface), which can generate a Manifest on the fly, and can be used as a publication server.
05:40:51 [LaurentLM]
... As a server, it can stream an EPUB file from an Object Storage and server Web Publications for feeding the Readium Web reader.
05:41:04 [LaurentLM]
s/server/serve
05:41:06 [LaurentLM]
q?
05:41:06 [wendyreid]
ack wendyreid
05:42:36 [LaurentLM]
wendyreid: the W3C Audiobook format is also used as a pivot format by some organizations.
05:42:57 [ivan]
q+
05:43:01 [LaurentLM]
... the question is now, how do we align the specs?
05:44:01 [LaurentLM]
Hadrien: however, the primary use case for RWPM is delivering audiobooks to users. Sometime hidden by an app or an OPDS feed.
05:45:18 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
05:45:27 [shiestyle]
q+
05:46:09 [LaurentLM]
ivan: there was an influence coming from Readium, it is a pity that the 2 things diverged.
05:46:22 [mgarrish]
q+
05:46:26 [Hadrien]
q+
05:46:45 [LaurentLM]
... The main differences between the two seem to be. The HTML TOC (and the primary page).
05:47:08 [LaurentLM]
... The other differencies are unfortunate.
05:48:10 [wendyreid]
Publication Manifest: https://www.w3.org/TR/pub-manifest/
05:48:28 [wendyreid]
Readium WPM: https://readium.org/webpub-manifest/#23-links
05:48:40 [wendyreid]
q+
05:48:43 [LaurentLM]
... if the goal is to merge, i.e. make a new standard, two questions: is it in the interest of Readium to make in a W3C standard? And a new version that in backward compatible (1.1) seems impossible; so it would be a 2.0.
05:48:46 [wendyreid]
ack shiestyle
05:49:20 [LaurentLM]
shiestyle: Can the RWPM replace the OPF file?
05:49:40 [wendyreid]
ack mgarrish
05:49:56 [LaurentLM]
hadrien: it was mainly designed as an internal format.
05:50:08 [jyasskin]
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05:51:18 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
05:51:19 [LaurentLM]
mgarrish: the W3C spec was generic and has flexible constraints (TOC...). The RWPM seems more specific.
05:52:42 [LaurentLM]
Hadrien: yes, some of the goals were different. We wanted to hide the complexity of formats to RS developers. However the W3C focus was dealing with publication that "live on the web". But the web is probably good enough without it.
05:53:20 [LaurentLM]
... People have found new use of RWPM over the years.
05:54:06 [LaurentLM]
... There are some differences. The W3C spec does not require a media type, some in naming, dealing with languages, duration format ...
05:55:04 [ivan]
q+
05:55:13 [LaurentLM]
... ISO has made it a standard. The Readium community does not see a problem with it.
05:55:27 [LaurentLM]
s/ISO/Korea/
05:55:41 [LaurentLM]
q?
05:55:42 [wendyreid]
ack wendyreid
05:56:13 [LaurentLM]
... NISO is interested to use it and push is to ISO.
05:57:44 [LaurentLM]
wendyreid: There are sutble differences between the specs. If there are no breaking changes, or a way to break them gracefully, because W3C WPM are really flexible, we can study if we can make a profile of W3C WPM.
05:58:06 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
05:59:08 [Hadrien]
q+
05:59:58 [LaurentLM]
ivan: looking at the large adoption of the RWPM, any breaking change to it will be unacceptable. If we create a W3C version, we'll have to adopt the syntax of the RWPM were it is different.
06:00:19 [LaurentLM]
... we will create a different version, not an incremental change.
06:00:39 [LaurentLM]
... We also have to check if the charter allows for a major version.
06:00:48 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
06:00:58 [LaurentLM]
... We cannot decide right now if we start this work.
06:01:38 [LaurentLM]
hadrien: the RWPM can use an HTML TOC, but nobory is using it, as there is the JSON TOC in the manifest.
06:02:55 [LaurentLM]
... some features like string direction, have been also challenging in EPUB.
06:04:30 [swjoo]
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06:04:33 [LaurentLM]
wendyreid: next step is to study the differences between the 2 specs.
06:05:18 [jyasskin]
present+
06:05:24 [LaurentLM]
ivan: I'm happy to work with Laurent for updating the tables he initially wrote.
06:05:28 [wendyreid]
Topic: HTML in EPUB
06:05:34 [ivan]
present+ danbri
06:05:54 [ivan]
present+ tzviya
06:06:07 [duga]
scribe+
06:06:21 [swjoo]
present+
06:07:01 [duga]
wendyreid: Welcome TAG! There has been a long standing question in epub whether we should add the HTML serialization to epub in addition to XML
06:07:21 [duga]
... this year we sent a survey to see what people think
06:07:30 [duga]
... we got a very interesting set of responses
06:08:10 [duga]
... [presenting doc with results summary]
06:08:33 [duga]
... 4 questions, first was who you are
06:09:29 [duga]
... we got very broad results, creators or epub, open source devs, conversion providers, some users, some for-profit vendors/publishers which was very different from open source
06:09:44 [duga]
... some edu, some RS, some XML experts
06:10:25 [duga]
... Then question 2 was benefits and challenges, if we were to do this what are the pros and cons
06:10:39 [duga]
... we got a lot of interop feedback, one of the most important things
06:11:18 [duga]
... we got feedback about from different angles. Some people gave some features as a pro, others gave the same html feature as a con
06:11:37 [duga]
... we also had wild conjectures
06:11:56 [duga]
... a lot about the level of change (epub4 or a different profile)
06:12:07 [duga]
... a lot of responses about cost
06:12:38 [hadleybeeman]
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06:12:43 [duga]
... question 3 was what steps should we take to make it easy
06:13:01 [duga]
... this had a lot of feedback about epub4 or some sort of a flag
06:13:12 [ivan]
pesent+ hadleybeeman
06:13:22 [duga]
... I tracked positive/neutral/negative sentiment
06:13:49 [duga]
... there were a lot of comments about providing documentation about what is available in practice
06:13:53 [jyasskin]
present+ hadleybeeman
06:14:11 [duga]
... some people that responded didn't know about existing features (e.g. please provide a validator)
06:14:32 [duga]
... some people skipped the intro and thought we were getting rid of xhtml
06:14:44 [duga]
... then the final question was open form
06:15:00 [duga]
... a lot of people asking for best practices
06:15:09 [LaurentLM]
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06:15:18 [duga]
... even asking for a permitted subset of properties/elements
06:15:28 [duga]
... basically asking for advice on how to make books
06:15:41 [duga]
... that was the messy version, here is the cleaned up one
06:15:47 [hadleybeeman]
q?
06:16:10 [duga]
... in terms of points in favor, things like longevity since it would ensure epub would continue on
06:16:36 [duga]
... also like tooling, integration, getting closer to web platform, even new features, new workflows, new types of content
06:16:54 [duga]
... there was also comments about bringing in new people
06:17:22 [duga]
... and integrating more modern a11y, design, etc that has appeared on the web in the last few years
06:18:11 [duga]
... against was complexity, more content errors, current tooling would need updates, not fully supported on all RSes, old books may not work on new readers
06:18:20 [duga]
... don't want to change tooling
06:18:28 [LaurentLM]
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06:18:34 [duga]
... Some people from watermarking claim it will destroy their business
06:19:08 [duga]
... a11y was a pro and a con, might be better, might be worse
06:19:25 [LaurentLM]
present+ Magnus
06:19:30 [LaurentLM]
q+ Magnus
06:19:37 [duga]
... Request for feature coverage, update epub check
06:19:58 [duga]
... suggest to do it in Pub Manifest, or a new profile
06:20:14 [duga]
... Help with tooling, maybe native epub support
06:20:30 [duga]
... could new epub reading systems be html only
06:20:40 [duga]
... maybe watermarking won't work
06:20:57 [duga]
... there is slow adoption, epub 3 barely passed epub2
06:21:06 [duga]
... but that is why we are discussing this now
06:21:17 [duga]
... Older RSes may not support this content
06:21:48 [ivan]
q+
06:21:51 [hadleybeeman]
q+
06:21:52 [duga]
... we got some responses from XML people asking us to push XML forward in the html community
06:22:04 [duga]
... These are the results, all very interesting
06:22:04 [wendyreid]
ack Magnus
06:22:15 [duga]
magnus: What was it used for?
06:22:21 [duga]
wendyreid: DRM
06:22:38 [LaurentLM]
q+
06:22:39 [duga]
magnus: I created watermarking for a company, it would break in html, but it could be fixed
06:23:11 [duga]
wendyreid: This was about breaking workflows
06:23:22 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
06:23:27 [duga]
magnus: They are probably right, it would break it
06:23:58 [duga]
ivan: One interesting thing in the comments, there were several responses that showed the community believes we are still using xhtml 1.1
06:24:01 [Bobby]
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06:24:16 [duga]
... so people were upset about the new features of html 5 appearing in content
06:24:23 [Hadrien]
q+
06:24:33 [duga]
... they didn't realize that epub 3.0 already made that change 15 years ago
06:24:44 [duga]
... which casts a very strange light on the responses
06:24:51 [wendyreid]
ack hadleybeeman
06:25:11 [duga]
Hadley: I am glad you did this research
06:25:35 [duga]
... what can we do to help? We get involved when there are issues that impact web, or big picture interop
06:25:55 [duga]
... or if a group wants a particular question answered
06:26:04 [jyasskin]
q+
06:26:08 [duga]
wendyreid: I think it is the latter, this is a big architectural change
06:26:11 [duga]
q+
06:26:54 [duga]
... we would like an outside perspective, are we missing something, has anyone else ever done something like this?
06:27:05 [wendyreid]
ack LaurentLM
06:27:35 [duga]
LaurentLM: from the results of the survey, etc, the issue come from both extremities. Producion and end user display
06:28:02 [duga]
... everyone in the middle seems fine. Distros, aggregators, etc are happy with html
06:28:19 [duga]
... on production side there is a hope that there may be something more shiny
06:28:35 [duga]
... on RS side, people are worried about breakage
06:28:58 [duga]
... they are both wrong. On prod side, If you want to use html, there are plenty of ways to transform it
06:29:08 [duga]
... on RS side, you can just use XSLT to convert
06:29:35 [duga]
... so is there a need in the future to support html
06:29:44 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
06:29:47 [gpellegrino]
+1 to Laurent
06:29:56 [duga]
... I think we shouldn't touch epub, and examine the extreminities
06:30:16 [duga]
Hadrien: I have a different take. for instance in Brazil they have decided to not use epub. Why?
06:30:34 [jroque]
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06:30:45 [duga]
... a lot was UX. They felt epub was giving away control as the producers and giving it to end users
06:31:03 [duga]
... they wanted more complex or responsive layout, or interativity
06:31:13 [duga]
... the only thing they like about epub is packaging
06:31:30 [duga]
... they like that part, not the rest. They don't like pagination code
06:31:31 [hadleybeeman]
q+ to ask Hadrien a question
06:31:39 [tzviya]
bug +1 to hadleybeeman
06:31:48 [tzviya]
oops bug +1 to Hadrien
06:31:49 [wendyreid]
ack hadleybeeman
06:31:49 [Zakim]
hadleybeeman, you wanted to ask Hadrien a question
06:31:54 [duga]
... I know it is different, but it is interesting to see why people have changed
06:32:09 [duga]
hadley: I was in govt for a while, we tried to move them from PDF to html
06:32:24 [duga]
... they wanted to control it all, and look like essentially print
06:32:40 [duga]
... we had to explain that they were making it harder for people to use
06:33:05 [duga]
... in that context, they were articulating as benefitting themselves, not their users
06:33:09 [gpellegrino]
q+
06:33:13 [duga]
... is that what these people were saying?
06:33:42 [duga]
Hadrien: Not really. They felt they had more control with html, since it avoids the RS from messing with things
06:34:03 [duga]
... they actually prefer web pages better, the only issue for them is packaging
06:34:15 [duga]
... so it is kind of different
06:34:22 [wendyreid]
ack jyasskin
06:34:26 [duga]
jyasskin: I don't think we have an answer
06:34:27 [duga]
q-
06:34:38 [duga]
... it seems the main benefit is tooling
06:34:56 [ivan]
q+
06:34:58 [wendyreid]
q+
06:35:01 [duga]
... That is an uncertain benefit. The main downside is making implementation harder
06:35:13 [duga]
... So which dominates?
06:35:18 [duga]
q+
06:35:49 [wendyreid]
scribe+
06:36:14 [wendyreid]
duga: There is a different, there are some libraries that don't work, no new features are going into the XML serialization, but don't know what is going to HTML though
06:36:20 [wendyreid]
gpellegrino: ShadowDOM
06:36:25 [wendyreid]
ack gpellegrino
06:36:44 [hadleybeeman]
q+ danbri
06:36:51 [duga]
... another question is is there something you can do in html but not xhtml? [this goes earluer]
06:36:55 [hadleybeeman]
present+ danbri
06:36:57 [duga]
q-
06:37:11 [duga]
gpellegrino: it is an issue more with format than serialization
06:37:18 [LaurentLM]
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06:37:22 [Hadrien]
+1 to what gpellegrino just said, it's about UX/features/expectations tied to formats
06:37:24 [jyasskin]
s/seems the main benefit is tooling/seems the main benefit is that it becomes easier to create epubs in the first place/
06:37:26 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
06:37:45 [duga]
ivan: what jyasskin said, I would turn it back to the TAG
06:38:16 [duga]
... how serious is the concern that if we do not make this move, that we fall behind because the html world leaves us behind?
06:38:38 [duga]
... there is a negative feeling in whatwg to xhtml
06:38:45 [duga]
... this evolution was a main trigger
06:39:14 [duga]
... ifs the fear is overrated?
06:39:42 [duga]
... I am not sure about jsdom and such. I don't think parsing is the main issue.
06:40:02 [duga]
... I think in the xhtml community, new apis are made by explicitly ignoring the xml versions
06:40:19 [duga]
jyasskin: I doubt browsers will remove xhtml serialization
06:40:46 [wendyreid]
ack wendyreid
06:40:49 [duga]
... but if there are new features they will only be in html, so new features in parsing won't be in xhtml
06:41:05 [duga]
wendyreid: I think the slowness is why we are discussing it now
06:41:16 [duga]
... there was some worry that we would switch, not add
06:41:38 [duga]
... some tangible complaints are technical quirks like entities
06:41:51 [duga]
... common validator error is incorrect entity usage
06:42:00 [duga]
... the other area is around scripting
06:42:12 [Hadrien]
q+
06:42:25 [duga]
... the current rec is don't script, but people really want to
06:42:40 [wendyreid]
ack danbri
06:42:44 [jyasskin]
q+ to mention Chromium not adding `defer` support to XML scripts
06:43:14 [duga]
danbri: I want to ask what this means for embedding things like SVG and mathml.
06:43:37 [duga]
wendyreid: We don't really say much about that. Things have gotten better recently
06:43:41 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
06:43:48 [duga]
danbri: and html method would be ok?
06:43:50 [duga]
wendyreid yes
06:44:22 [wendyreid]
s/wendyreid yes/wendyreid: yes/
06:44:27 [gpellegrino]
+1 to Hadrien
06:44:33 [duga]
Hadrien: What people want from html is often different from what you would get from epub
06:44:41 [duga]
... so two formats can actually help make that clear
06:45:00 [duga]
... what is important is making clear what to expect
06:45:00 [wendyreid]
q+ to get to the part where we make a decision on this
06:45:11 [duga]
... switching to html won't make scripting better in epub
06:45:28 [duga]
... I know this is a big sidestep, but I don't think mixing the two will work
06:45:35 [jyasskin]
https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/loading-dev/c/abRvsaclp0Q/m/fjLyFZtqDAAJ: "we have decided that we cannot support the implementation of defer in XML documents at this time", in the SVG context
06:45:37 [wendyreid]
ack jyasskin
06:45:37 [Zakim]
jyasskin, you wanted to mention Chromium not adding `defer` support to XML scripts
06:46:06 [duga]
jyasskin: I did remember one feature where they decided not to add a feature to xhtml. It was about `defer`, but that probably doesn't apply to epub
06:46:18 [duga]
... but browsers likely won't support them in xml
06:46:19 [duga]
q+
06:46:21 [wendyreid]
ack wendyreid
06:46:21 [Zakim]
wendyreid, you wanted to get to the part where we make a decision on this
06:47:04 [wendyreid]
duga: Wanted to add one quick thing, many of the reading systems don't actually display XHTML, they display HTML, XHTML as though it is HTML, the stuff inbetween is a lot of XML parsers
06:47:25 [wendyreid]
... new features would probably still work, some people have their own engines, but it may not be that big a deal
06:47:29 [wendyreid]
ack duga
06:47:43 [duga]
wendyreid: we have discussed this a lot over the years
06:48:11 [duga]
... I went into this thinking we should add html. After looking at the results I have changed that opinion
06:48:55 [duga]
... I think we should do that elsewhere. Not that we are discussing pub manifest, maybe it is time to introduce a more modern web adjacent format
06:49:21 [duga]
... pub manifest is probably the place to do it, and html is probably the tech to use
06:49:38 [duga]
... at the same time keep epub stable
06:49:46 [hadleybeeman]
q+
06:49:52 [duga]
... I think it is time to go on a different pathway
06:49:53 [wendyreid]
ack hadleybeeman
06:50:06 [duga]
hadleybeeman: Do you imagine the use cases evolving?
06:50:07 [duga]
wendyreid:
06:50:08 [duga]
yes
06:50:11 [duga]
wendyreid: yes
06:50:14 [duga]
hadleybeeman: how?
06:50:27 [tzviya]
q+ to answer hadley
06:50:30 [jyasskin]
q+ to discuss scripting
06:50:36 [duga]
wendyreid: There is a desire for more interactive content, linked content, offlineable
06:50:53 [ivan]
q+ to make a final decision for the WG...
06:51:04 [duga]
... so there is a lot of good things in epub, but there have been a lot of huge changes that we don't take advantage of given the older constraints
06:51:12 [duga]
... it is time to revisit the use cases
06:51:29 [duga]
hadleybeeman: does that mean the dev base will grow?
06:51:32 [duga]
wendyreid: yes
06:51:50 [duga]
hadleybeeman: So the people you talked to may not include them? That is important to remember
06:51:59 [duga]
wendyreid: yes there would be new devs
06:52:21 [duga]
hadleybeeman: You need to keep that in mind, you can grow the dev base
06:52:22 [wendyreid]
ack tzviya
06:52:22 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to answer hadley
06:52:35 [wendyreid]
ack jyasskin
06:52:35 [Zakim]
jyasskin, you wanted to discuss scripting
06:53:01 [duga]
jyasskin: There is a bigger problem around scripting. Are you all talking about what scripts work?
06:53:20 [duga]
wendyreid: No. People want that, though
06:53:21 [mgarrish]
q+
06:53:40 [duga]
... we need to be clearer, but we will never get to defining scripting
06:53:47 [hadleybeeman]
q+ to suggest/ask something more about the developer ecosystem
06:54:03 [duga]
jyasskin: I don't mean speicific libraries, but rather what generally works
06:54:11 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
06:54:11 [Zakim]
ivan, you wanted to make a final decision for the WG...
06:54:11 [duga]
q+
06:54:35 [duga]
q-
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06:54:41 [duga]
ivan: we have to make a decision.
06:54:54 [jyasskin]
"Yes" or "maybe later"
06:54:54 [duga]
... and we are running out of time (looking at the clock)
06:55:19 [duga]
... I agree with Wendy, I don't think we should change. It is futile to do it
06:55:43 [duga]
... the discsussion about the web manifest recalls web manifest, which was a disaster
06:56:01 [duga]
... looking back, one of the errors was to consider that the big publishers would jump on it
06:56:09 [duga]
... that was a naive assumption
06:56:22 [duga]
... if we create a new version, the goal has to be different
06:56:53 [duga]
... big publishers are happy with epub, we maintain it and keep them happy, then find a new community that wants html
06:57:01 [wendyreid]
ack mgarrish
06:57:06 [hadleybeeman]
q-
06:57:38 [duga]
mgarrish: If we do go to something else, and don't abandon epub 3, then we end up duplicating everything
06:58:04 [duga]
... The easiest way is probably to fiddle with the version numbers, but then we pull a lot of baggage forwar
06:58:07 [duga]
q+
06:58:35 [duga]
... at some point we have to make a decision. Otherwise we just spin in circles
06:58:57 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
06:59:04 [wendyreid]
q?
06:59:07 [duga]
... If we stay with xhtml we lose the html people
06:59:14 [wendyreid]
duga:
06:59:16 [wendyreid]
jack duga
06:59:20 [wendyreid]
ack duga
06:59:42 [LaurentLM]
LaurentLM has joined #pmwg
06:59:44 [wendyreid]
duga: I don't like the idea of messing with version numbers, if we have an EPUB4 "that is the future", that doesn't have XHTML, people will be mad
06:59:58 [ivan]
+1 to duga
07:00:03 [jyasskin]
q+
07:00:04 [hadleybeeman]
q+
07:00:10 [wendyreid]
... if we want to do something new or different, it should be a new spec, it shouldn't be EPUB4, I think we need to find an audience first
07:00:15 [wendyreid]
ack jyasskin
07:00:30 [duga]
jyasskin: there is some interest in packaging from browsers
07:00:39 [duga]
... chrome has isolated web apps
07:00:53 [wendyreid]
ack hadleybeeman
07:00:58 [duga]
... that could be use for other things, but I don't know what the appetitie is
07:01:19 [duga]
hadleybeeman: If you put the html in a different spec, then you are clearly fragmenting
07:01:31 [duga]
... then you add a lot of complexity
07:01:50 [duga]
... if you plan to do it, then do it at one go and don't have multiple specs
07:02:05 [duga]
jyasskin: I would say don't do that, don't have a new format
07:02:35 [duga]
wendyreid: I think the decision is we won't do html in epub 3.4
07:02:44 [wendyreid]
PROPOSED: We will not add HTML serialization to EPUB 3.4
07:02:49 [duga]
+1
07:02:50 [gpellegrino]
+1
07:02:51 [ivan]
+1
07:02:51 [CharlesL]
+1
07:02:51 [shiestyle]
+1
07:02:52 [LaurentLM]
+1
07:02:52 [wendyreid]
+1
07:02:52 [Hadrien]
+1
07:02:53 [MasakazuKitahara]
+1
07:02:54 [rdeltour]
+1
07:02:56 [toshiakikoike]
+1
07:02:57 [ikkwong]
+1
07:03:10 [wendyreid]
RESOLVED: We will not add HTML serialization to EPUB 3.4
07:03:11 [ivan]
q+
07:03:19 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
07:03:38 [duga]
ivan: we should communicate this somehow
07:03:48 [duga]
... including the rationale for the decision
07:03:58 [duga]
wendyreid: Yes, we will blog post
07:04:09 [duga]
... and thanks to the TAG for proposing some questions
07:04:32 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:04:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
07:04:52 [swjoo]
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07:05:22 [CharlesL]
CharlesL has left #pmwg
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Hadrien has joined #pmwg
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ryokik has joined #pmwg
07:31:01 [MasakazuKitahara]
MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg
07:35:16 [gpellegrino]
present+
07:42:01 [duga]
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07:42:07 [toshiakikoike]
persent+
07:42:37 [wendyreid]
Topic: Issue Clean-up
07:42:58 [ivan]
s/persent+/present+/
07:42:58 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues
07:43:11 [duga4]
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07:43:14 [Hadrien]
present+
07:43:44 [duga4]
scribe+
07:43:48 [jkamata]
jkamata has joined #pmwg
07:43:56 [MasakazuKitahara]
present+
07:43:56 [taka]
taka has joined #pmwg
07:44:20 [duga4]
wendyreid: However long we last we can review the issues
07:44:35 [duga4]
... just do some general cleanup since we have discussed a lot of these issues
07:44:52 [duga4]
... Success would be covering all the rendition properties
07:45:11 [duga4]
Hadrien: I also think the whole FXL with a reflowable alternative is worth discussing
07:45:35 [duga4]
wendyreid: Where to start?
07:45:44 [duga4]
Hadrien: I have a bunch of open issues
07:45:56 [duga4]
wendyreid: Do we want to start with layout overrides?
07:46:03 [duga4]
Hadrien: That might be a hard one
07:46:14 [duga4]
... I would start with the flow one.
07:46:28 [duga4]
... maybe #2754 or #2750
07:46:33 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2750
07:46:37 [ryokik]
ryokik has joined #pmwg
07:46:42 [wendyreid]
https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2754
07:46:58 [wendyreid]
Subtopic: rendition:flow issues #2750 and #2754
07:47:24 [duga4]
... One thing we have now (for rendition flow) is to provide a hint how reflowable resources should be presented
07:47:36 [duga4]
... you can say auto, paginated, or scroll
07:48:20 [duga4]
... this is problematic because authors shouldn't have control over it. And it shouldn't switch mid book. Also, no one does 2 types of scrolling
07:48:55 [duga4]
... since these have been used in Japan, we have to be clear that the current undefined use should be documented as equivalent to roll.
07:49:02 [duga4]
... but otherwise we should drop them
07:49:25 [duga4]
... So once again this mean moving to deprecated, etc
07:50:03 [duga4]
ivan: I did the a different PR, the question of tests came up. Do we need deprecated tests, or just remove them?
07:50:28 [duga4]
wendyreid: I would say for the tests it might be appropriate to have a deprecated test suite as examples or demos
07:50:40 [duga4]
... so RSes can use those tests
07:51:01 [duga4]
ivan: We would need to figure out how to do that, but that is for later
07:51:20 [duga4]
Hadrien: I don't think this breaks any reading system, since it is so poorly implemented
07:52:24 [duga4]
wendyreid: We actually had passing tests
07:52:36 [duga4]
... looks like it was for ignoring the property
07:53:05 [duga4]
... scrolled doc and continuous both have passing tests
07:53:21 [duga4]
... on collibrio, thorium etc
07:53:54 [ivan]
q+
07:53:58 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
07:54:06 [duga4]
Hadrien: I am surprised since thorium has no scrolled mode
07:54:27 [duga4]
ivan: I remember reading some books that did scrolling per chapter
07:54:47 [duga4]
... I remember having read it in Thorium, no idea how it was marked up
07:54:59 [duga4]
... but at least one example where scrolled-doc was used
07:55:41 [duga4]
Hadrien: Most reading systems let users paginate or scroll. Scroll is either per doc or continuous. So Ivan had a book that forced scrolled behavior even though he didn't set it
07:55:44 [duga4]
ivan: Correct
07:56:21 [duga4]
laurent and Hadrien: [Arguing over scrolling]
07:57:03 [duga4]
ivan: Looking back it included a lot of code, which is often bad with pagination. So not wanting to paginate is better
07:57:20 [duga4]
wendyreid: Thorium 3 it no longer works, but it did in 2.2
07:57:42 [duga4]
... the core question is do we deprecate the rendition flow at meta and item levels?
07:57:50 [duga4]
Hadrien: That is my opinion
07:58:10 [duga4]
ivan: The reason we propose it, is it because it is wrong to do it, or because it is unused
07:58:12 [duga4]
q+
07:58:19 [duga4]
Hadrien: It is both
07:58:26 [wendyreid]
scribe+
07:58:29 [duga4]
... If respected it can be harmful
07:58:33 [wendyreid]
q+
07:58:56 [duga4]
... forcing scrolling or paginated is not put at the top. It is bad on multiple levels.
07:59:01 [ivan]
q+
07:59:16 [wendyreid]
ack duga
07:59:17 [duga4]
... it is bad for UX and accessibility. And it is bad to have something we don't use
07:59:52 [wendyreid]
duga: I remember when we added this, some people liked it, the point was to tell the user what the original thing was, this is the Torah, it was originally scrolled
07:59:56 [wendyreid]
... a hint to the user
08:00:28 [wendyreid]
... I think we have now confused what it means to what it should switch to, this is how this content must be displayed, and that was not the intention
08:00:37 [wendyreid]
... add to the reasons to deprecate, confusion over what these properties mean
08:00:44 [wendyreid]
... at least, it is under specified
08:00:47 [shiestyle]
q+
08:00:55 [wendyreid]
ack wendyreid
08:01:35 [duga4]
wendyreid: I think, to duga4 when we added the renditions properties, was to allow the publishers to give hints to the RS
08:01:57 [duga4]
... the problem being we never specified what that hint was supposed to look like
08:02:11 [duga4]
... So RSes displayed it one way, then users wanted it different
08:02:49 [duga4]
... We now have hindsight and user information. Readers will tell us what they want, and how they want to read something
08:03:24 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
08:03:25 [duga4]
... if we want to allow publishers to provide these hints we need to explain to RSes what that means
08:04:01 [duga4]
ivan: It seems we have a more general thing than these properties. Personally I am more in favor making it clearer in the spec
08:04:08 [Hadrien]
q+
08:04:17 [duga4]
... Make it clear this is a hint
08:04:30 [duga4]
... just removing it is pretty heavy handed
08:04:37 [LaurentLM]
q?
08:04:39 [LaurentLM]
LaurentLM has joined #pmwg
08:04:49 [duga4]
... which brings into question our decision from yesterday
08:04:49 [wendyreid]
ack shiestyle
08:04:56 [gpellegrino]
q+
08:05:14 [duga4]
shiestyle: I don't know the use case for scrolled doc, but in ancient time in Asia we had the rolled document
08:05:34 [duga4]
... we don't have those now, but we use scrolled continuous for webtoons
08:05:49 [duga4]
... the current spec must ignore the scrolled continuous in fixed layout
08:06:01 [LaurentLM]
q+
08:06:08 [duga4]
... I don't know what the use cases are for such scrolled properties in Japan
08:06:10 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
08:06:28 [duga4]
Hadrien: So as ivan says, for consistency we should treat this the same way
08:06:49 [duga4]
... Even if we clarify it, there isn't really a way to properly support it
08:07:01 [duga4]
... so no one will support both types of scrolled
08:07:19 [duga4]
... As to a hint, I think it is better to just write it in the book
08:07:26 [duga4]
... that way there is no annoying UI
08:07:45 [duga4]
... One example is manga in the west, where it explains to read right to left
08:08:27 [wendyreid]
ack gpellegrino
08:08:33 [LaurentLM]
q-
08:08:53 [duga]
duga has joined #pmwg
08:09:16 [wendyreid]
gpellegrino: To what Ivan said, orientation in FXL, most reading system doesn't allow the user to unlock, if its set, it can't be changed. With scrolled it is up to the user to change in the settings
08:09:58 [duga]
wendyreid: to your point, in my experience, we would do the thing where we showed it initially, but if you turned the phone we would switch to portrait
08:10:06 [LaurentLM]
q+
08:10:32 [duga]
Hadrien: and some RSes have one type of scroll, others have only the other type
08:10:32 [wendyreid]
ack LaurentLM
08:11:00 [duga]
LaurentLM: only looking at w3c rules, it shouldn't be in the spec since it is under implemented
08:11:14 [duga]
... if it is not implemented by now, then it should go
08:11:32 [duga]
... and if it is a hint, then it really shouldn't be allowed as a spine override
08:12:22 [duga]
wendyreid: I think we set precedent with the orientation thing. Maybe we should decide what our philosophy is
08:12:44 [duga]
... is it the user and their on device prefs, or do we want to empower the publisher to provide their own guidance
08:12:46 [ivan]
q+
08:13:16 [duga]
ivan: As co-editor, anything that makes the spec simpler is good for me
08:13:25 [shiestyle]
+1 to Ivan
08:13:28 [duga]
... I don't know how many properties that is
08:13:42 [duga]
... so it means deprecating quite a number of properties
08:13:54 [duga]
... so smaller is better for me (simpler)
08:14:17 [duga]
... As far as removing we have to leave them for backwards compat
08:14:23 [duga]
Hadrien: That's fine
08:14:36 [duga]
ivan: A book with these should still be conformant
08:14:38 [wendyreid]
POLL: Do we think that EPUB should 1) Prioritize user reading preferences for content appearance and reading experience; OR 2) Continue to provide publishers with the rendition properties to declare initial rendering characteristics for books
08:15:01 [LaurentLM]
1
08:15:02 [Hadrien]
1
08:15:03 [shiestyle]
1
08:15:06 [MasakazuKitahara]
1
08:15:07 [toshiakikoike]
1
08:15:12 [duga]
1
08:15:13 [wendyreid]
1
08:15:13 [ivan]
1
08:15:15 [marisa]
1
08:15:24 [rdeltour]
1
08:15:52 [wendyreid]
RESOLVED: EPUB should prioritize user reading preferences for content appearance and reading experience
08:15:53 [duga]
Hadrien: this will affect some other properties
08:16:10 [ivan]
q+
08:16:14 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
08:16:39 [duga]
ivan: Instead of going through one at a time, can we have a list or such properties
08:16:50 [duga]
Hadrien: Yeah, I would spreads in but not layout
08:17:16 [duga]
ivan: Just put in a separate all the items that should be closed from this decision?
08:17:24 [duga]
Hadrien: Yes, I will take that as an action item
08:17:27 [wendyreid]
ACTION: Hadrien to open issue outlining which rendition properties need to be changed
08:17:58 [duga]
ivan: There is a pr I made yesterday. Maybe I should expand it or do a new big one
08:18:04 [duga]
wendyreid: Expanding makes the most sense to me
08:18:09 [duga]
ivan: ok
08:18:27 [wendyreid]
Subtopic: Layout Overrides - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2749
08:18:35 [duga]
wendyreid: Next is layout override
08:19:06 [duga]
... this is how we can have mixed reflow and prepaginated
08:19:19 [Hadrien]
q+
08:19:21 [duga]
... this is a tricky one, because we have a solid set of use cases and idea
08:19:30 [duga]
... There are reading systems that support it
08:19:40 [shiestyle]
q+
08:19:46 [duga]
... there are a lot of RSes that can't/don't implement it
08:19:57 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
08:19:58 [duga]
... there are probably better solutions
08:20:26 [duga]
Hadrien: I think layout override is problematic as it can create complex UX problems, and it doesn't solve all the problems
08:20:51 [duga]
... I would keep this at the resource level, but not in the spine, and I would limit it to things outside of the spine
08:21:06 [duga]
... so I could have a link to a reflowable from fixed or vice versa
08:21:31 [duga]
... I don't think we need mixed fixed and reflowable when going cover to cover
08:21:42 [LaurentLM]
q?
08:21:44 [duga]
... this is what we need for magazines and textbooks
08:21:48 [ivan]
q+
08:21:55 [LaurentLM]
q+
08:21:58 [wendyreid]
ack shiestyle
08:22:04 [duga]
... what we have no is problematic and we should explore other options
08:22:19 [LaurentLM]
q-
08:22:22 [duga]
shiestyle: We use this feature in e.g. light novels
08:22:46 [duga]
... There are often some pages that need to be fixed for precise layout
08:22:57 [duga]
... at least kadokawa uses this feature
08:22:58 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
08:22:59 [LaurentLM]
q+
08:23:25 [wendyreid]
q+
08:23:49 [duga]
ivan: shiestyle gave an example that I was thinking about. So something complex in the book that needs to be specified exactly
08:23:53 [wendyreid]
ack LaurentLM
08:24:16 [duga]
LaurentLM: I wonder in this case how RS ui can be consistent, particularly if the first part is paginated
08:24:50 [Hadrien]
q+
08:24:58 [duga]
... so you will have one pagination, then you have something that is fixed, do you have to invent blank pages? How do you get a consistent reading experience?
08:25:24 [duga]
shiestyle: When the spread mode happens, we don't expect the reflow pages to be on the screen at the same time
08:25:41 [wendyreid]
ack wendyreid
08:25:50 [duga]
LaurentLM: So you have to finish one, then show the fixed page, then switch back
08:26:11 [duga]
wendyreid: The question points to something interesting, and maybe we don't need to get rid of this entirely
08:26:23 [duga]
... maybe they work better in one layout than the other
08:26:44 [duga]
... so going from fixed to reflow is hard, but going from reflow to fixed may be easier
08:27:04 [duga]
... so can you go the other way?
08:27:09 [duga]
shiestyle: Yes, sometimes
08:27:31 [duga]
... sometimes split view is required
08:27:52 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
08:27:55 [duga]
LaurentLM: It would be interesting to see a sample, and it would be great to have a test donated to the w3c
08:28:42 [duga]
Hadrien: So LaurentLM thinks it is hard one way, but I think it is hard the other way. So say you have it set to scrolled, then you hit a fixed page, what do you do?
08:28:53 [duga]
... the only use case so far is full bleed images
08:29:04 [duga]
... is this the only way to do it? Or can we do it another way?
08:29:21 [duga]
... and finally we should do this at the manifest level, not spine
08:29:51 [duga]
... so I am very interested in exploring the move from spine to manifest
08:30:35 [duga]
wendyreid: There is a test, mixed results
08:31:07 [ivan]
q+
08:31:16 [duga]
... not sure if we can decide today
08:31:20 [duga]
duga: I agree
08:31:26 [duga]
Hadrien: I did warn in advance
08:31:31 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
08:31:38 [duga]
... maybe a resolution would be better spec language?
08:32:03 [duga]
ivan: Yeah that is one way, another is more detail about moving to the manifest level
08:32:24 [duga]
... so maybe deprecate this and move, though that may be a problem if it is currently in use
08:32:45 [duga]
... maybe put in a proposal to move this to manifest
08:32:51 [wendyreid]
ACTION: Hadrien to make a proposal about manifest level properties
08:32:52 [duga]
Hadrien: So an action item to me?
08:33:21 [duga]
Hadrien: So move to manifest?
08:33:30 [duga]
wendyreid: Yes, and maybe perceived benefits
08:33:44 [duga]
Hadrien: Looking at the remaining things we are mostly done
08:33:47 [ivan]
q+
08:34:17 [duga]
... we could move to alternatives, or maybe to how to idenitify AI generated content
08:34:26 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
08:34:54 [duga]
ivan: Hadrien what is the status of roll? It is a pr? Pending on images in spine which is now resolved
08:35:22 [duga]
Hadrien: roll document was blocked, but now that we have an answer I can rework it to adopt the decision
08:35:35 [duga]
... so there is still work, but we are no longer blocked
08:35:44 [LaurentLM]
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08:35:48 [duga]
... give me some time, as I am travelling for a few weeks
08:36:25 [wendyreid]
Subtopic: AI contributions to ebooks
08:36:34 [duga]
wendyreid: Since it is pertinent, let's talk AI
08:36:37 [wendyreid]
https://www.editeur.org/files/ONIX%203/APPNOTE%20Aspects%20of%20AI%20in%20ONIX.pdf
08:37:18 [duga]
... ONIX has AI contributor, you can say which parts are AI generated
08:37:23 [Hadrien]
q+
08:37:37 [ivan]
q+
08:37:45 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
08:37:49 [duga]
... so for us we are talking epub metadata, we don't have to follow ONIX, but we can copy a bit
08:38:04 [duga]
Hadrien: A lot of this is opf metadata, so we could just refine everywhare
08:38:19 [duga]
... I don't think would work for alt text, though
08:38:29 [duga]
... we might need something in the markup
08:39:03 [duga]
... I don't know if we can just use OPF info. An image could be listed once in the OPF but appear multiple times with different alt text
08:39:06 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
08:39:29 [duga]
ivan: Starting with the markup, I would be very hesitant for us to do that
08:39:39 [wendyreid]
q+
08:40:02 [duga]
... we need someone else to do it, then we just use it. We can ask for it, but we shouldn't do it ourselves
08:40:11 [duga]
... I don't want to repeat epub:type
08:40:21 [duga]
... for the metadata, yes of course
08:40:34 [duga]
... do we want to replicated, or just directly refer to onix?
08:40:38 [wendyreid]
ack wendyreid
08:40:40 [duga]
... why reinvent the wheel
08:41:12 [duga]
wendyreid: I agree. if we think this is important enough, then we should discuss with agwig [???]
08:41:40 [Hadrien]
q+
08:41:48 [duga]
... I don't want to have it repeated that AI generated this all the time?
08:42:00 [duga]
Hadrien: Could just be a one time warning
08:42:06 [LaurentLM]
q+
08:42:10 [duga]
wendyreid: Who is the intended audience?
08:42:16 [ivan]
q+
08:42:23 [wendyreid]
s/agwig [???]/AGWG/
08:42:28 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
08:42:59 [duga]
Hadrien: I think it is interesting for both. For production it can helpful to know if the desc was authored or generated
08:43:25 [duga]
... so good to know if a particular entry was authored or generated, and whether it was checked
08:43:40 [duga]
... I think a lot of the publishing community is shooting itself in the foot
08:44:05 [duga]
... For instance, in the future it might be better to ignore the AI generated text as on-device becomes better
08:44:47 [duga]
... and for users it is very important. This could impact my purchasing decision. I may not like AI voices, or I may just not like AI in general
08:44:50 [wendyreid]
ack LaurentLM
08:45:22 [ivan]
q-
08:45:59 [duga]
LaurentLM: About the production use case, for small publishers they don't have a big database, they just send it to a service. If it doesn't get saved in markup it will be lost
08:46:16 [ivan]
q+
08:46:27 [duga]
wendyreid: We could make a proposal, then share it around and see if people agree
08:47:09 [duga]
... we can address the reader metadata, but for the other side we need broader concensus
08:47:10 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
08:47:43 [duga]
ivan: In a broader level you might want to talk to Dom or [???] as they are involved in AI
08:48:29 [duga]
s/???/Roy/
08:49:37 [duga]
wendyreid: on the reader side, I might want to know when things are AI generated. For instance, some books have AI generated images that may be wrong.
08:49:52 [duga]
LaurentLM: Human generated content can also be wrong
08:50:16 [duga]
Hadrien: The people who are doing that probably won't label it correctly
08:50:19 [gpellegrino]
q+
08:50:27 [wendyreid]
ack gpellegrino
08:50:55 [duga]
gpellegrino: Just to say there is a movement in Europe to explicitly say when AI was used to generate content
08:51:00 [duga]
... this may appear in 2026
08:51:22 [duga]
ivan: What is the status of this onix? Is it exploratory?
08:51:33 [duga]
Hadrien: It is definitely used now in onix
08:51:46 [duga]
... and several orgs recommend using those codes
08:51:58 [duga]
ivan: Maybe we can informally reference this spec
08:52:13 [Hadrien]
q+
08:52:28 [wendyreid]
https://ns.editeur.org/onix/en/19
08:52:43 [wendyreid]
ack Hadrien
08:52:46 [duga]
wendyreid: There is a list of unnamed persons that includes AI
08:53:00 [duga]
Hadrien: The concept of unnamed is interesting.
08:53:26 [duga]
... but I always worry about pointing at onix since it is very foreign. It is very at odds with epub metadata
08:53:34 [duga]
ivan: Yeah, but we already do that
08:54:10 [duga]
Hadrien: Yes, but that is our least used metadata
08:54:29 [duga]
ivan: The only other option is to come up with our own vocab
08:54:43 [duga]
Hadrien: Yes, that is also a problem
08:55:00 [duga]
wendyreid: We should open an issue for thos
08:55:04 [duga]
s/thos/this/
08:55:27 [duga]
... and then we can see if people want onix, or something custom, or something else
08:55:45 [duga]
Hadrien: There have been synthesized voice issues
08:56:03 [duga]
... we probably need to look back and create an umbrella issue
08:56:14 [duga]
wendyreid: Ok, we will open an issue and go from there
08:56:25 [duga]
... Thanks everyone for a very productive few days
08:56:58 [duga]
... we will follow up with our TODO items. No meeting next week, reconvene in two weeks
08:57:33 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:57:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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