W3C

– DRAFT –
Invisible XML Community Group

11 November 2025

Attendees

Present
Bethan, Fredrik, John, Nico, Norm, Steven
Regrets
David
Chair
Steven
Scribe
Steven

Meeting minutes

Accept the minutes of the previous meeting

[Approved]

Review of open actions

2025-10-14-a NW to add a link to Steven’s modularization paper to the list of papers

Completed

2025-10-14-b NW to summarize the design decisions that differ from SP's paper.

Completed

2025-10-14-c NW to update the README in the samples to make them CC0 explicitly.

Completed

2025-10-14-d SP to reply to Alain.

Completed

2025-10-14-e NW to fix the iXML grammar link in the GitHub README.

Completed

Status reports

Norm: Modularity implemented

Steven: Oh yes, I need to comment on your email

Fredrik: I can automatically download a grammar from the command line
… using an ixml: prefix

Norm: I believe my implementation recognises http: as a prefix for downloading grammars

Fredrik: I am also writing a YAML parser in ixml
… there is lots of data in YAML, but don't like the format of YAML, so I want to read the YAML grammars in a different way.

New open issues

#310 Not possible to set priority on rules

invisiblexml/ixml#310

Steven: I admit I misunderstood what was being said.

Steven: I now understand it to be part of a larger issue about dealing with ambiguity
… I think there's a higher-level issue "Dealing with ambiguity", including subtraction and negation.

Bethan: I don't think subtraction is about ambiguity, but expressing new things.

John: I use it to disambiguate
… such as keywords.

Bethan: But it allows you to specify things that aren't otherwise possible.

John: this is one of the places where pragmatics says in order to reduce ambiguity, I have two routes, set theory, or new rules.

Fredrik: I agree with John

Bethan: One big difference that makes me feel they are different, are two use cases

Norm: I characterise the distinction is that one changes how the parser works, the other determines how the serialisation is done

Fredrik: I don't think subtraction can be done by a larger grammar

Bethan: I think most cases of subtraction can be represented in a grammar

Norm: It would be useful to see examples

Steven: I do think we need to do comparisons of the different methods

Norm: I will add a new top-level discussion item

ACTION: Norm to create new higher-level issue for ambiguity

ACTION: Norm to add Symposium to every agenda

#309 Feature request: Doubled "--" to disable the "-" suppressor marker … for faster iteration

invisiblexml/ixml#309

Norm: I didn't understand what was being asked for

Steven: I didn't see what the win would be

John: I have a flag that says 'ignore marks' so that you get the whole parse.

<norm> Norm: I have a similar flag.

John: a simpler technique, rather than '--', use "^", which is rarely used.

Steven: Good point

Bethan: Or use a comment.

Steven: So resolved not to accept

ACTION: Steven to reply to "--" issue

#308 Not possible to specify an exact number of repetitions

invisiblexml/ixml#308

Steven: I don't feel there is a sufficient number of use cases

Bethan: I think this is good

Norm: I have sympathy for this.

Bethan: This is just syntactic sugar

John: It might be expensive for 8-22

Steven: We need proposals for syntax then
… and implementation rules

John: The rewrites take us from + and * to recursion; for multiples we will end up with a large set of rules.
… I think it is much deeper to handle number of repetitions.

Nico: And how about repetions with separators?

Steven: We should be consistent

John: With exact numbers you can use a logarithmic approach. With ranges, it is harder.

Nico: It would be a way to specify IPv6 addresses

#322 Extend Unicode version test to cover Unicode 16 and 17

This isn’t an issue, it’s a pull request from Gunther Rademacher

Norm: It is added tests for new versions of Unicode

Next meeting

Norm: Regrets, but please meet without me.

Nov 25th

Symposium

Norm: We already have two proposals.

Bethan: Push on Slack!

John: Meeting+1 is 9th December

Norm: Let's do symposium business on 16th

Summary of action items

  1. Norm to create new higher-level issue for ambiguity
  2. Norm to add Symposium to every agenda
  3. Steven to reply to "--" issue
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 248 (Mon Oct 27 20:04:16 2025 UTC).

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All speakers: Bethan, Fredrik, John, Nico, Norm, Steven

Active on IRC: norm, Steven