FXL Accessibility TF

https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/discussions/2825

wendyreid: Lots of discussion around images in spine and FXL, accessibility, how can we make things like scrolled comics work in the context of all the other needs.

gautierchomel: Good use of the discussions feature, I think there is something missing in this discussion, something that allows for parallel contents
… not synchronized, or alternate, or fallback
… to me it's the same problem we face with displaying reflow along with FXL, same problem with translated content or bilingual content, the mechanism we need for all these topics is the same
… a mechanism to author and present parallel content
… we may need a specific TF for this, it's a big topic

CharlesL: I see where you're coming from gautierchomel, I agree
… with images in spine, I have a strong adverse reaction to that because of the accessibility, and I get the potential improvements to some workflows
… if we make it easy for publishers to make inaccessible content, they will do it, we see it already in some books, the images being made as a background image using CSS, we need to come up with something
… using the spine makes sense in many ways, smaller file sizes, but we could use alternates or references to other files, we don't want no way to do it
… we need to provide options, with the alternatives in other files
… if we don't have an accessible solution, we will have pushback in the horizontal review

Dale: If we follow the spec as written, and there's an XHTML document and we go to that, the image is there, the accessibility information is there, it's accessible
… but I hear that some reading systems strip out the image, just show it, it seems like the solution for having accessible ebooks are already there, those that choose to discard make that choice
… why are we doing all this work when the effort remains, feels like we are reinventing the wheel

wendyreid: I agree with you all.
… RS that are not concerned with a11y they will continue to just strip the images out.
… I don't feel bad to do the extra work for the RS to do the extra work if they want to make it in-accessible.
… My goal as spec dev. to make the reader happy and satisfy their needs.
… I don't want to make it harder for Publishers. and want to fight for the user with the most need we get 10X benefits for everyone.
… making this choice make this easier for RS devs.
… interlinear even if we start work for that today we couldn't fix the scrollable content.
… we need to hold firm on this in EPUB, but the parallel content, and this is probably the future maybe EPUB4 or Manifest 2. It does make sense. We can't take a huge step backwards to make some content easier to use.

CircularKen: Agree with everyone, we have a lot of inaccessible FXL out there, we all know someone out there who can write a script to make image1 to xhtml and so on. There are ways to already have scrolling with FXL
… I don't think we should change for this

CharlesL: Slightly related, maybe off topic, I'll be at an accessibility council meeting, can pick some brains

CircularKen: For FXL? How can we make an accessible FXL on Kindle, what are they doing?
… what are they working on?

CharlesL: I can ask about that

Dale: I create books that are mixed media, one chapter is a comic, there's a poem in another chapter, when I try to upload, it's not publishing online

Dale: I get told it needs to be a comic book, because it has comic elements, but it forces a situation where you're stuck to a format that is not accessible

wendyreid: there is a problem just for this kind of content say "Comic" that it must be scrolled and could allow for this new way of creating the EPUB.
… sometimes there is both Fixed layout and reflowable.

Dale: my content works great on Apple Books. so I know its possible. exactly the way I expect it to from the spec,
… EPUB spec doesn't need to change IMO.

Ken: I agree
… visual types of books is not as accessible but we don't want to make it even less accessible.

CharlesL: One point I want to make, the Amazon FXL is only certified at WCAG 2.2 A, for the reasons we defined

CharlesL: Amazon's FL is certified at WCAG 2.2 A only.

CircularKen: New software out there, Affinity, which produces really amazing FXL content
… I have contributed to what we want, and they listened
… worth checking out
… I'm running a webinar about it

CharlesL: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/kenjones_in-the-loop-activity-7391073544081735680-21zH
… main link: https://bookmachine.org/2025/10/30/canva-has-just-given-you-a-free-alternative-to-adobe/

wendyreid: One assertion in that discussion: comics can't be accessible with the current paradigm. I agree its not the most ideal solution to have the entire page described to you.
… I reject the idea that because we can't have a fully accessible option we shouldn't try, and just allow an inaccessible version.
… there are cases in Education where there may be comics as part of the curricula.
… we need people from alternate formats that will push back on that assumption.

Dale: Watch the Ted Talk Scott McCloud

wendyreid: I read lite version of Manga comics and they are not the same.

gpellegrino: I have not seen an accessible comic at a publishing house. I have seen experiments.
… when we get a comic in our QA process, say 1 page comic we make sure the description of the one page and the text in the comic is there.
… the alt text can be as long as you want. but you can't navigate alt text is 1 chunk of text. which may be difficult to understand, no language shifting in alt text etc.
… not mandatory with spec. to force it to be accessible.
… we need to provide a way to make it accessible. I agree lets not skip it completely but its not a perfect solution. to have a fully accessible will take a lot of effort. (complex images etc.)

gautierchomel: Want to emphasize what Gregorio said, what I see with publishers we work with at EDRLab who want to do accessible comics
… they are working actively on it
… the publisher we meet have the will, they don't have a way
… so instead of spending time on discussing the image in spine, it's not the best solution, the entire situation is problematic, but I think we should focus on strong ways to do accessible comics with things like parallel content
… the example I know is from Hachette, the collection being made as audiobooks, they hired professionals to write scripts to make the comics understandable
… they are wondering how to synchronize/parallelize the audio version with the content
… page by page, to fit the dialogue
… we could do that with alt text, it's not great, we could do it with other means

Dale: What is a comic? Scott McCloud really breaks it down, there are sound effects, dialogue, the scene, multiple elemetns
… some publishers would say this is a bitmap, just stick it on the page
… but from an accessibility POV, there's a story, and we use semantics to that
… there's so many different ways to look at how to describe it
… regardless of the limitations, how do we help the reader experience the comic?
… it's almost like typing out the script of the page
… let them read the script
… in multimedia we have scripts, transcripts, audio description
… there's all these different ways of experiencing a story
… how do you coming at a story from multiple POVs
… when we talk about comics, the definition of comic is bitmap, and we just need to put a bitmap in the spine to be done, that's all there is until we talk about it from an accessibility POV

wendyreid: I did an experiment, an assignment for class, created an image SVG and wanted to make it accessible and navigable.
… every single panel is navigable and described to AT.
… nothing fancy SVG in HTML, just did rectangles, could do bubbles / circles, sound effects. navigable reading order. missing semantics because its just SVG which doesn't allow that no headings / body text, etc.
… we have the status quo not great, there are tech that could help but there are new tech like parallelization to content.
… if the only way to do scrolled content with images in spine, but this is not the case. its possible other ways.

Dale: I hear everything you say, parallel paths, I encouraged my students to use different senses in storytelling
… on the web I can bring in all these different types of content and properties, can we head in that direction with EPUB

Dale: Is EPUB meant to reproduce a physical book in an electronic device, or something more?
… is there a solution beyond EPUB
… if EPUB has its weak spots, in its own lane, and this is what it does, or is it possible to do this in EPUB?
… an EPUB is a website in an archive, but we don't have access to the full experience of the web either
… it's a stripped down version, is that ok?