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14:59:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/04-fxl-a11y-irc
14:59:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:59:04 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
14:59:12 <wendyreid> meeting: FXL Accessibility TF
14:59:17 <wendyreid> date: 2025-11-04
14:59:20 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
15:01:12 <Dale> present+
15:01:48 <CircularKen> present+
15:02:52 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #fxl-a11y
15:03:27 <gpellegrino> present+
15:03:47 <wendyreid> present+
15:04:27 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #fxl-a11y
15:05:22 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/discussions/2825
15:06:08 <gautierchomel> present+
15:06:13 <gautierchomel> q+
15:07:11 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:07:17 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #fxl-a11y
15:07:23 <CharlesL> present+
15:07:45 <CharlesL> q+
15:07:45 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:07:50 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Lots of discussion around images in spine and FXL, accessibility, how can we make things like scrolled comics work in the context of all the other needs.
15:08:13 <wendyreid> gautierchomel: Good use of the discussions feature, I think there is something missing in this discussion, something that allows for parallel contents
15:08:25 <wendyreid> ... not synchronized, or alternate, or fallback
15:09:25 <wendyreid> ... to me it's the same problem we face with displaying reflow along with FXL, same problem with translated content or bilingual content, the mechanism we need for all these topics is the same
15:09:41 <wendyreid> ... a mechanism to author and present parallel content
15:10:15 <wendyreid> ... we may need a specific TF for this, it's a big topic
15:10:18 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:10:31 <wendyreid> CharlesL: I see where you're coming from gautierchomel, I agree
15:11:09 <wendyreid> ... with images in spine, I have a strong adverse reaction to that because of the accessibility, and I get the potential improvements to some workflows
15:11:52 <wendyreid> ... if we make it easy for publishers to make inaccessible content, they will do it, we see it already in some books, the images being made as a background image using CSS, we need to come up with something
15:12:46 <Dale> q+
15:12:47 <wendyreid> ... using the spine makes sense in many ways, smaller file sizes, but we could use alternates or references to other files, we don't want no way to do it
15:13:36 <wendyreid> ... we need to provide options, with the alternatives in other files
15:13:52 <wendyreid> ... if we don't have an accessible solution, we will have pushback in the horizontal review
15:13:56 <wendyreid> ack Dale
15:14:25 <wendyreid> Dale: If we follow the spec as written, and there's an XHTML document and we go to that, the image is there, the accessibility information is there, it's accessible
15:15:05 <wendyreid> ... but I hear that some reading systems strip out the image, just show it, it seems like the solution for having accessible ebooks are already there, those that choose to discard make that choice
15:15:39 <wendyreid> ... why are we doing all this work when the effort remains, feels like we are reinventing the wheel
15:15:41 <wendyreid> q+
15:15:44 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
15:15:59 <CharlesL> scribe+
15:16:14 <CharlesL> wendyreid: I agree with you all.
15:16:34 <CharlesL> ... RS that are not concerned with a11y they will continue to just strip the images out.
15:17:02 <CharlesL> ... I don't feel bad to do the extra work for the RS to do the extra work if they want to make it in-accessible.
15:17:21 <CharlesL> ... My goal as spec dev. to make the reader happy and satisfy their needs.
15:17:53 <CharlesL> ... I don't want to make it harder for Publishers. and want to fight for the user with the most need we get 10X benefits for everyone.
15:18:20 <CharlesL> ... making this choice make this easier for RS devs.
15:18:45 <CharlesL> ... interlinear even if we start work for that today we couldn't fix the scrollable content.
15:19:41 <CharlesL> ... we need to hold firm on this in EPUB, but the parallel content, and this is probably the future maybe EPUB4 or Manifest 2.  It does make sense. We can't take a huge step backwards to make some content easier to use.
15:20:30 <wendyreid> CircularKen: Agree with everyone, we have a lot of inaccessible FXL out there, we all know someone out there who can write a script to make image1 to xhtml and so on. There are ways to already have scrolling with FXL
15:20:39 <wendyreid> ... I don't think we should change for this
15:21:08 <CharlesL> q+
15:21:15 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:21:34 <Dale> q+
15:22:02 <wendyreid> CharlesL: Slightly related, maybe off topic, I'll be at an accessibility council meeting, can pick some brains
15:22:32 <wendyreid> CircularKen: For FXL? How can we make an accessible FXL on Kindle, what are they doing?
15:22:49 <wendyreid> ... what are they working on?
15:24:55 <wendyreid> CharlesL: I can ask about that
15:25:09 <wendyreid> ack Dale
15:25:58 <wendyreid> Dale: I create books that are mixed media, one chapter is a comic, there's a poem in another chapter, when I try to upload, it's not publishing online
15:26:59 <wendyreid> Dale: I get told it needs to be a comic book, because it has comic elements, but it forces a situation where you're stuck to a format that is not accessible
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15:27:51 <gautierchomel> q+
15:28:15 <gautierchomel> q-
15:29:30 <CharlesL> wendyreid: there is a problem just for this kind of content say "Comic" that it must be scrolled and could allow for this new way of creating the EPUB.
15:29:50 <CharlesL> ... sometimes there is both Fixed layout and reflowable.
15:31:02 <CharlesL> Dale: my content works great on Apple Books. so I know its possible. exactly the way I expect it to from the spec,
15:31:18 <CharlesL> ... EPUB spec doesn't need to change IMO.
15:31:41 <CharlesL> Ken: I agree
15:32:30 <CharlesL> ... visual types of books is not as accessible but we don't want to make it even less accessible.
15:32:59 <wendyreid> CharlesL: One point I want to make, the Amazon FXL is only certified at WCAG 2.2 A, for the reasons we defined
15:33:22 <CharlesL> CharlesL: Amazon's FL is certified at WCAG 2.2 A only.
15:33:59 <wendyreid> CircularKen: New software out there, Affinity, which produces really amazing FXL content
15:34:13 <wendyreid> ... I have contributed to what we want, and they listened
15:34:20 <wendyreid> ... worth checking out
15:34:29 <wendyreid> ... I'm running a webinar about it
15:37:12 <CharlesL> ... https://www.linkedin.com/posts/kenjones_in-the-loop-activity-7391073544081735680-21zH
15:38:35 <CharlesL> ... main link: https://bookmachine.org/2025/10/30/canva-has-just-given-you-a-free-alternative-to-adobe/
15:41:07 <CharlesL> wendyreid: One assertion in that discussion: comics can't be accessible with the current paradigm. I agree its not the most ideal solution to have the entire page described to you.
15:41:54 <CharlesL> ... I reject the idea that because we can't have a fully accessible option we shouldn't try, and just allow an inaccessible version.
15:42:26 <CharlesL> ... there are cases in Education where there may be comics as part of the curricula.
15:43:02 <CharlesL> ... we need people from alternate formats that will push back on that assumption.
15:43:19 <CharlesL> Dale: Watch the Ted Talk @123
15:43:48 <CharlesL> wendyreid: I read lite version of Manga comics and they are not the same.
15:44:32 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: I have not seen an accessible comic at a publishing house. I have seen experiments.
15:45:29 <CharlesL> ... when we get a comic in our QA process, say 1 page comic we make sure the description of the one page and the text in the comic is there.
15:46:04 <CharlesL> ... the alt text can be as long as you want. but you can't navigate alt text is 1 chunk of text. which may be difficult to understand, no language shifting in alt text etc.
15:46:32 <CharlesL> ... not mandatory with spec. to force it to be accessible.
15:47:19 <CharlesL> ... we need to provide a way to make it accessible. I agree lets not skip it completely but its not a perfect solution. to have a fully accessible will take a lot of effort. (complex images etc.)
15:47:30 <gautierchomel> q+
15:48:23 <CharlesL> s/@123/Scott McCloud
15:48:26 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:49:08 <wendyreid> gautierchomel: Want to emphasize what Gregorio said, what I see with publishers we work with at EDRLab who want to do accessible comics
15:49:12 <wendyreid> ... they are working actively on it
15:49:25 <wendyreid> ... the publisher we meet have the will, they don't have a way
15:50:25 <wendyreid> ... so instead of spending time on discussing the image in spine, it's not the best solution, the entire situation is problematic, but I think we should focus on strong ways to do accessible comics with things like parallel content
15:51:07 <wendyreid> ... the example I know is from Hachette, the collection being made as audiobooks, they hired professionals to write scripts to make the comics understandable
15:51:25 <Dale> q+
15:51:27 <wendyreid> ... they are wondering how to synchronize/parallelize the audio version with the content
15:51:45 <wendyreid> ... page by page, to fit the dialogue
15:51:59 <wendyreid> ... we could do that with alt text, it's not great, we could do it with other means
15:53:03 <wendyreid> ack Dale
15:53:21 <wendyreid> q+
15:54:04 <wendyreid> Dale: What is a comic? Scott McCloud really breaks it down, there are sound effects, dialogue, the scene, multiple elemetns
15:54:16 <wendyreid> ... some publishers would say this is a bitmap, just stick it on the page
15:54:32 <wendyreid> ... but from an accessibility POV, there's a story, and we use semantics to that
15:54:46 <wendyreid> ... there's so many different ways to look at how to describe it
15:55:00 <wendyreid> ... regardless of the limitations, how do we help the reader experience the comic?
15:55:20 <wendyreid> ... it's almost like typing out the script of the page
15:55:26 <wendyreid> ... let them read the script
15:55:48 <wendyreid> ... in multimedia we have scripts, transcripts, audio description
15:55:57 <wendyreid> ... there's all these different ways of experiencing a story
15:56:05 <wendyreid> ... how do you coming at a story from multiple POVs
15:56:40 <wendyreid> ... when we talk about comics, the definition of comic is bitmap, and we just need to put a bitmap in the spine to be done, that's all there is until we talk about it from an accessibility POV
15:57:34 <CharlesL> wendyreid: I did an experiment, an assignment for class, created an image SVG and wanted to make it accessible and navigable.
15:58:04 <CharlesL> ... every single panel is navigable and described to AT.
15:59:27 <CharlesL> ... nothing fancy SVG in HTML, just did rectangles, could do bubbles / circles, sound effects. navigable reading order. missing semantics because its just SVG which doesn't allow that no headings / body text, etc.
15:59:59 <CharlesL> ... we have the status quo not great, there are tech that could help but there are new tech like parallelization to content.
16:00:29 <CharlesL> ... if the only way to do scrolled content with images in spine, but this is not the case. its possible other ways.
16:00:35 <Dale> q+
16:00:43 <CharlesL> ack wendyreid
16:00:47 <wendyreid> ack Dale
16:01:14 <wendyreid> Dale: I hear everything you say, parallel paths, I encouraged my students to use different senses in storytelling
16:01:36 <wendyreid> ... on the web I can bring in all these different types of content and properties, can we head in that direction with EPUB
16:02:00 <wendyreid> Dale: Is EPUB meant to reproduce a physical book in an electronic device, or something more?
16:02:09 <wendyreid> ... is there a solution beyond EPUB
16:02:32 <wendyreid> ... if EPUB has its weak spots, in its own lane, and this is what it does, or is it possible to do this in EPUB?
16:02:49 <wendyreid> ... an EPUB is a website in an archive, but we don't have access to the full experience of the web either
16:02:57 <wendyreid> ... it's a stripped down version, is that ok?
16:03:37 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
16:03:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Dale, CircularKen, gpellegrino, wendyreid, gautierchomel, CharlesL
16:03:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/04-fxl-a11y-minutes.html Zakim
16:03:47 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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