Meeting minutes
New issue triage l-aam+repo:w3c/dpub-aam+repo:w3c/svg-aam+repo:w3c/dpub-aria+repo:w3c/graphics-aria+repo:w3c/graphics-aam+repo:w3c/mathml-
Daniel: we said we won't do triage every week, but every few weeks
Daniel: first one is from Peter, on title element mapping
pkra: I wondered if it is confusing that it isn't mapped… but it is also the name of the document in the spec
jcraig: looks like the link is different
Daniel: ah it's broken in the chat, you can follow it from the W3C agenda
pkra: if it is just closed because editors say there's nothing useful here, that's fine for me too
Daniel: let's wait for an editor's response
Daniel: then #2565, related concepts missing in aria-colspan and aria-rolespan
pkra: I took the liberty to tag as editorial and good first issue
Daniel: ok
Daniel: then #2556, from James Teh, should we still require ID for activedescendant to reveice focus
Daniel: there are some comments on this
pkra: the whole section is a bit dated… doesn't mention reflection at all… needs to be updated to pull that new, modern featureset in
pkra: it hasn't been touch in… forever
pkra: should update it to how it works in browsers. Anyone feel free to pick it up, also happy to do it
jcraig: I'd be happy to review
pkra: can assign it to me, and otherwise I'll bring it back
pkra: annevk would also be great to ask for clarifications re this
Daniel: then 2554, 2552, seem for editor?
pkra: yes mostly respec stuff
Daniel: then #2548 was from last week, we can skip for now and get back
PR triage 3Aw3c%2Fhtml-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fdpub-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fsvg-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fdpub-aria+repo%3Aw3c%2Fgraphics-
Daniel: there's 3 PRs, most editorial
Daniel: #2566 is mine, we can skip it
Daniel #2563, I think is being worked on?
pkra: I replaced two PRs that had been stale and needed updates, they were stuck… I rebuilt them and tried to incorporate the comments on the originating PRs and tagged the folks that already had reviewed
pkra: I hope this makes them easier to re-review. If I tagged you on one of those, please take another look
pkra: the fail is a false positive… am creating a link in a section that is RFC but is not actually changing it
pkra: re #2562… I think I was asked to help on this during editor's meeting… couldn't help because it is on Rahim's fork so made a new one
WPT PR triage
Daniel: James can you guide us through is there anything we should talk about?
jcraig: #52159 needs a review, is there someone here who would do a review? would be helpful
jcraig: it is literally just some file renaming
jcraig: the others are waiting for updates
Deep dive Planning
<Daniel> w3c/
Daniel: this one is scheduled for July 17th?
Daniel: yes
Daniel: remember, if anyone who wants to flag something for a deep dive, feel free to do so, you'd need to an intro
aardrian: seeing that the issue is closed and in it, and keithamus says in it his questions were answered, not sure if this still needs to happen?
pkra: we prepped it a bit last week
keithamus on chat: I think it still needs to occur
keihatmus on chat: i'll update with a comment
Are ARIA roles case sensitive or case insensitive?
Daniel: this is about case sensitivity of ARIA roles, we can discuss it a bit today
pkra: I think it's in the spec if you follow the thread in the issue. But it's not obvious, a clarification would be good
pkra: it's a little tricky because it comes down to HTML's implementation of ARIA
pkra: and I suppose SVG's
Daniel: should we work out what the clarification should be today?
pkra: Rahim opened an issue on WPT
pkra: if somebody wants to find a good way … I'm not sure what is a good place to do it, don't know if we want to prescribe to host languages how to treat their attributes
pkra: the WPT point is probably the best starting point
jcraig: a @@@ test should be able to verify that Gecko doesn't crash. Or a WPT test as long as that doesn't require the bit we haven't defined yet
jcraig: will add that as a comment
Daniel: ok, then we have a path forward
Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution (#2237)
Daniel: it seems to need a rebase
pkra: it has to do with Prettier, could be easier to start of fresh
Daniel: could you look at that giacomo-petri ?
giacomo-petri: yes
Address title attribute and name prohibited elemeents (#2292)
Daniel: it's already under review by Keith, Aaron, James and Rahim… Keith would you be able to have a look?
keithamus: yes
[html-aam] Addition: selectedcontent element (#2344)
Daniel: this is about selectedcontent, has a few reviewers
scott: probably needs input from Mozilla and Webkit folks
keithamus: I'll be the one implementing for Mozilla, you can add me
Daniel: ok
Clarify / expand value attribute mappings
jcraig: re previous topic: it still waiting for an official standards position from webkit
Update: legend to provide name to optgroup
scott: this is also about customisable select… would like people who will implement it to look at it
jcraig: haven't looked the actual feature yet
scott: all contingent on browsers actually shipping the feature
scott: so answer to Valerie on the GH issue is yes
keithamus: we have one implementation, which is Chrome. I've approved this PR so that could count as endorsement from Mozilla
scott: I'm personally inclined to merge all customisable select things at the same time, as they won't work separately
scott: need to figure out if anything has changed on these, haven't done anything on these for a while because of other priorities
jcraig: I added a link to the webkit standards position prerequisite… if you want to add a related issue on Gecko, please do
jcraig: there's a feature specific one and an accessibility specific one
scott: Option element mapping table (#2365) is also related
add aria-checked support to gridcell and row (#2390)
Daniel: is from sarah if I'm not mistaken
change default role for custom elements (#2383)
keithamus: I could review this, it looks like there are some reviewers already but not sure if people have looked at it yet
Fix incorrect role specified for html element (#2504)
Daniel: looks like it has 1 requested change from jcraig
jcraig: just resolved the thread on the PR
ARIA IDL updates (#2484)
Daniel: is there anything we can do now with this?
keithamus: changes are fine… but my requested change is that this is normative… and we need to review all implementors agree with the change, there are potential web compat issues so need an assessment from the browsers
keithamus: returning the reflected value isn't necessarily true today… so while that's fine… Salesforce has a polyfill for aria mixin, when I talked to them last about this, they said they rely on the existing 'broken' reflecting behaviour
keithamus: may want to investigate it further to make sure there are no issues
jcraig: would you suggest we write a tentative WPT test based on this change?
keithamus: would be an excellent next step
clarify parent-child relationships for menu, group and menuitem (#2483)
pkra: I put this on the agenda recently so we can talk about it… the donut scoping thing… see if we can find some good language to describe that
Daniel: ok so will be on an agenda of a meeting in the future
pkra: that's my hope
Empty or non-matching values (#2235)
Daniel: I see aardrian and filippo-zorzi on it,do you think you can look at it?
aardrian: can do today
filippo-zorzi: me too
clarify img mappings (#2221)
scott: there was an issue re that img element could have either src or srcset, you don't necessarily need either. This PR was done to match HTML
scott: I hope this can go in now, not sure what else needs to happen at this point
pkra: just reflects reality, right?
scott: yes, that's also what the WPT tries to show, I put together a variety of img use cases and the various ways to give accessible names
scott: not sure what else is needed than approving reviewers
pkra: jcraig, you commented on the original PR… the intermediate comments have been resolved, only some comments on the WPT
jcraig: will review
Add normative text on calculating aria-level, aria-posinset, and aria-setsize (#2104)
Daniel: still has conflicts to resolve
sarah: I can resolve the conflicts, and will have a look at the comments
pkra: there's also the bigger question that jcraig raised re headings without a level
pkra: but this part doesn't talk about heading level
sarah: this was originally written about trees, could be written explicitly
jcraig: don't necessarily think we should move forward with the default value change, unless heading is explicitly opted out of this, in the same PR. Because it will result in more user tedium, odd user tedium too
jcraig: in the grand scheme of things it's not the most important accessibility nag I have, but I do foresee user impact and increase of tedium for the user
pkra: when I tested, NVDA and JAWS were exposing @@@
jcraig: in VoiceOver we try not to add more verbosity when not necessary, eg some Windows screenreaders say Tab when you press Tab while the user probably already knows they pressed that
sarah: agree with you… but this PR has tree groups, we could make it more explicitly
jcraig: does the user presented language affect the way tests are written? if the tests are written with headings undefined, that's how we need it written
sarah: I think it's already explicitly not headings, but will double check the wording to make sure
jcraig: one of the reason IDL project has been so complicated is prose based exceptions that are all throughout ARIA since many years
sarah: it's prose but written as an explicit set of logical steps
sarah: this was initiated by my desire to make flat trees possible… but we got somehwat sidetracked
keithamus: fwiw for the IDL stuff; if the attribute is not present the IDL should reflect now, don't think it would matter with regards to IDL
jcraig: so this particular change would not affect IDL at all, just host language IDL implementation?
keithamus: yes
jcraig: that's manageable then
sarah: @@@, the document outline was never really a thing
jcraig: based on keith's comment I think my concern is less relevant
Daniel: so you'll look at the wording Sarah?
sarah: yes
jcraig: we can also add rahim