16:52:35 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:52:39 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/06/26-aria-irc 16:52:39 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:52:40 Meeting: ARIA WG 16:52:56 zakim, agenda? 16:52:56 I see nothing on the agenda 16:53:08 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/5a155237-d896-464b-9c5f-6dd1654293ae/20250626T130000/ 16:53:08 clear agenda 16:53:08 agenda+ -> New issue triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=no:milestone+is:open+is:issue+created:%3E%3D2025-06-12+repo:w3c/aria+repo:w3c/accname+repo:w3c/core-aam+repo:w3c/html-aam+repo:w3c/dpub-aam+repo:w3c/svg-aam+repo:w3c/dpub-aria+repo:w3c/graphics-aria+repo:w3c/graphics-aam+repo:w3c/mathml- 16:53:09 … aam&type=Issues 16:53:09 agenda+ -> PR triage https://github.com/search?q=no%3Amilestone+is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-06-19+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fhtml-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fdpub-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fsvg-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fdpub-aria+repo%3Aw3c%2Fgraphics- 16:53:12 … aria+repo%3Aw3c%2Fgraphics-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fmathml-aam&type=pullrequests 16:53:15 agenda+ -> WPT PR triage https://github.com/search?q=repo:web-platform-tests/wpt+is:open+label:wai-aria,accname,html-aam,dpub-aam,graphics-aria,svg-aam&type=pullrequests 16:53:18 agenda+ -> Deep dive Planning https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/5a155237-d896-464b-9c5f-6dd1654293ae/20250626T130000/ 16:53:21 agenda+ -> Are ARIA roles case sensitive or case insensitive? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2548 16:55:22 filippo-zorzi has joined #aria 17:01:26 pkra has joined #aria 17:01:43 scribe: hdv 17:01:45 present+ 17:01:49 scott has joined #aria 17:01:54 present+ 17:02:05 sarah has joined #aria 17:02:14 aardrian has joined #aria 17:02:15 np-at has joined #aria 17:02:19 giacomo-petri5 has joined #aria 17:02:26 present+ 17:02:29 present+ 17:02:31 present+ 17:02:34 present+ 17:02:36 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 17:02:39 regrets+ rahim 17:02:40 present+ 17:02:56 present+ 17:03:00 Zakim, take up next please 17:03:00 agendum 1 -- -> New issue triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=no:milestone+is:open+is:issue+created:%3E%3D2025-06-12+repo:w3c/aria+repo:w3c/accname+repo:w3c/core-aam+repo:w3c/htm 17:03:03 ... l-aam+repo:w3c/dpub-aam+repo:w3c/svg-aam+repo:w3c/dpub-aria+repo:w3c/graphics-aria+repo:w3c/graphics-aam+repo:w3c/mathml- -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:03:26 Leo has joined #aria 17:03:26 Daniel: we said we won't do triage every week, but every few weeks 17:03:26 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 17:03:30 Daniel: first one is from Peter, on title element mapping 17:03:33 present+ 17:04:08 peter: I wondered if it is confusing that it isn't mapped… but it is also the name of the document in the spec 17:04:26 jcraig: looks like the link is different 17:04:37 Daniel: ah it's broken in the chat, you can follow it from the W3C agenda 17:04:45 s/peter/pkra 17:05:06 pkra: if it is just closed because editors say there's nothing useful here, that's fine for me too 17:05:13 Daniel: let's wait for an editor's response 17:05:26 Daniel: then #2565, related concepts missing in aria-colspan and aria-rolespan 17:05:45 pkra: I took the liberty to tag as editorial and good first issue 17:05:48 Daniel: ok 17:06:21 Daniel: then #2556, from James Teh, should we still require ID for activedescendant to reveice focus 17:06:28 Daniel: there are some comments on this 17:06:44 pkra: the whole section is a bit dated… doesn't mention reflection at all… needs to be updated to pull that new, modern featureset in 17:07:02 pkra: it hasn't been touch in… forever 17:07:27 pkra: should update it to how it works in browsers. Anyone feel free to pick it up, also happy to do it 17:07:37 Siri has joined #aria 17:08:03 jcraig: I'd be happy to review 17:08:10 present+ 17:08:18 pkra: can assign it to me, and otherwise I'll bring it back 17:08:21 katez has joined #aria 17:08:38 pkra: annevk would also be great to ask for clarifications re this 17:08:38 CurtBellew has joined #aria 17:09:07 Daniel: then 2554, 2552, seem for editor? 17:09:12 pkra: yes mostly respec stuff 17:09:24 Daniel: then #2548 was from last week, we can skip for now and get back 17:09:43 Zakim, take up next please 17:09:43 agendum 2 -- -> PR triage https://github.com/search?q=no%3Amilestone+is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-06-19+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam+repo% 17:09:46 ... 3Aw3c%2Fhtml-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fdpub-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fsvg-aam+repo%3Aw3c%2Fdpub-aria+repo%3Aw3c%2Fgraphics- -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:09:58 Daniel: there's 3 PRs, most editorial 17:10:09 Daniel: #2566 is mine, we can skip it 17:10:19 Daniel #2563, I think is being worked on? 17:11:01 pkra: I replaced two PRs that had been stale and needed updates, they were stuck… I rebuilt them and tried to incorporate the comments on the originating PRs and tagged the folks that already had reviewed 17:11:13 pkra: I hope this makes them easier to re-review. If I tagged you on one of those, please take another look 17:12:24 pkra: the fail is a false positive… am creating a link in a section that is RFC but is not actually changing it 17:13:34 pkra: re #2562… I think I was asked to help on this during editor's meeting… couldn't help because it is on Rahim's fork so made a new one 17:14:04 Zakim, take up next please 17:14:04 agendum 3 -- -> WPT PR triage https://github.com/search?q=repo:web-platform-tests/wpt+is:open+label:wai-aria,accname,html-aam,dpub-aam,graphics-aria,svg-aam&type=pullrequests -- 17:14:07 ... taken up [from agendabot] 17:14:24 Daniel: James can you guide us through is there anything we should talk about? 17:14:50 present+ 17:15:11 jcraig: #52159 needs a review, is there someone here who would do a review? would be helpful 17:16:18 jcraig: it is literally just some file renaming 17:16:31 present+ 17:16:42 jcraig: the others are waiting for updates 17:16:43 Zakim, take up next please 17:16:43 agendum 4 -- -> Deep dive Planning https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/5a155237-d896-464b-9c5f-6dd1654293ae/20250626T130000/ -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:17:18 https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/584 17:17:53 Daniel: this one is scheduled for July 17th? 17:17:55 Daniel: yes 17:18:28 Daniel: remember, if anyone who wants to flag something for a deep dive, feel free to do so, you'd need to an intro 17:19:24 aardrian: seeing that the issue is closed and in it, and keithamus says in it his questions were answered, not sure if this still needs to happen? 17:20:22 pkra: we prepped it a bit last week 17:20:48 keithamus on irc: I think it still needs to occur 17:21:40 s/irc/chat 17:21:46 keihatmus on chat: i'll update with a comment 17:21:52 Zakim, take up next please 17:21:52 agendum 5 -- -> Are ARIA roles case sensitive or case insensitive? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2548 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:22:39 Daniel: this is about case sensitivity of ARIA roles, we can discuss it a bit today 17:22:55 pkra: I think it's in the spec if you follow the thread in the issue. But it's not obvious, a clarification would be good 17:23:09 pkra: it's a little tricky because it comes down to HTML's implementation of ARIA 17:23:14 pkra: and I suppose SVG's 17:23:44 Daniel: should we work out what the clarification should be today? 17:24:30 pkra: Rahim opened an issue on WPT 17:25:03 pkra: if somebody wants to find a good way … I'm not sure what is a good place to do it, don't know if we want to prescribe to host languages how to treat their attributes 17:25:53 pkra: the WPT point is probably the best starting point 17:26:32 jcraig: a @@@ test should be able to verify that Gecko doesn't crash. Or a WPT test as long as that doesn't require the bit we haven't defined yet 17:26:46 jcraig: will add that as a comment 17:27:01 Daniel: ok, then we have a path forward 17:28:38 Topic: Presentational Roles Conflict Resolution (#2237) 17:28:51 Daniel: it seems to need a rebase 17:29:09 pkra: it has to do with Prettier, could be easier to start of fresh 17:29:16 Daniel: could you look at that giacomo-petri ? 17:29:18 giacomo-petri: yes 17:29:30 Topic: Address title attribute and name prohibited elemeents (#2292) 17:30:00 Daniel: it's already under review by Keith, Aaron, James and Rahim… Keith would you be able to have a look? 17:30:02 keithamus: yes 17:30:40 Topic: [html-aam] Addition: selectedcontent element (#2344) 17:31:38 Daniel: this is about selectedcontent, has a few reviewers 17:31:53 scott: probably needs input from Mozilla and Webkit folks 17:32:03 keithamus: I'll be the one implementing for Mozilla, you can add me 17:32:06 Daniel: ok 17:32:15 Topic: Clarify / expand value attribute mappings 17:33:11 jcraig: re previous topic: it still waiting for an official standards position from webkit 17:33:28 Topic: Update: legend to provide name to optgroup 17:33:45 scott: this is also about customisable select… would like people who will implement it to look at it 17:34:26 jcraig: haven't looked the actual feature yet 17:34:37 scott: all contingent on browsers actually shipping the feature 17:34:52 scott: so answer to Valerie on the GH issue is yes 17:35:42 keithamus: we have one implementation, which is Chrome. I've approved this PR so that could count as endorsement from Mozilla 17:36:13 scott: I'm personally inclined to merge all customisable select things at the same time, as they won't work separately 17:36:39 scott: need to figure out if anything has changed on these, haven't done anything on these for a while because of other priorities 17:37:06 jcraig: I added a link to the webkit standards position prerequisite… if you want to add a related issue on Gecko, please do 17:37:35 jcraig: there's a feature specific one and an accessibility specific one 17:38:30 scott: Option element mapping table (#2365) is also related 17:38:58 Topic: add aria-checked support to gridcell and row (#2390) 17:39:09 Daniel: is from sarah if I'm not mistaken 17:40:08 Topic: change default role for custom elements (#2383) 17:40:27 keithamus: I could review this, it looks like there are some reviewers already but not sure if people have looked at it yet 17:42:46 Topic: Fix incorrect role specified for html element (#2504) 17:42:58 Daniel: looks like it has 1 requested change from jcraig 17:43:07 jcraig: just resolved the thread on the PR 17:43:58 Topic: ARIA IDL updates (#2484) 17:44:03 Daniel: is there anything we can do now with this? 17:45:05 keithamus: changes are fine… but my requested change is that this is normative… and we need to review all implementors agree with the change, there are potential web compat issues so need an assessment from the browsers 17:46:35 keithamus: returning the reflected value isn't necessarily true today… so while that's fine… Salesforce has a polyfill for aria mixin, when I talked to them last about this, they said they rely on the existing 'broken' reflecting behaviour 17:46:49 keithamus: may want to investigate it further to make sure there are no issues 17:47:18 jcraig: would you suggest we write a tentative WPT test based on this change? 17:47:29 keithamus: would be an excellent next step 17:48:05 Topic: clarify parent-child relationships for menu, group and menuitem (#2483) 17:48:28 pkra: I put this on the agenda recently so we can talk about it… the donut scoping thing… see if we can find some good language to describe that 17:48:50 Daniel: ok so will be on an agenda of a meeting in the future 17:48:52 pkra: that's my hope 17:49:37 Topic: Empty or non-mathcing values (#2235) 17:49:49 Daniel: I see aardrian and filippo-zorzi on it,do you think you can look at it? 17:49:52 aardrian: can do today 17:49:55 filippo-zorzi: me too 17:50:02 s/mathcing/matching 17:50:12 RRSAgent, draft minutes please 17:50:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/26-aria-minutes.html hdv 17:50:44 Topic: clarify img mappings (#2221) 17:51:17 scott: there was an issue re that img element could have either src or srcset, you don't necessarily need either. This PR was done to match HTML 17:51:29 scott: I hope this can go in now, not sure what else needs to happen at this point 17:51:41 pkra: just reflects reality, right? 17:52:04 scott: yes, that's also what the WPT tries to show, I put together a variety of img use cases and the various ways to give accessible names 17:52:15 scott: not sure what else is needed than approving reviewers 17:53:17 pkra: jcraig, you commented on the original PR… the intermediate comments have been resolved, only some comments on the WPT 17:53:35 jcraig: will review 17:53:53 Topic: Add normative text on calculating aria-level, aria-posinset, and aria-setsize (#2104) 17:53:58 Daniel: still has conflicts to resolve 17:54:29 sarah: I can resolve the conflicts, and will have a look at the comments 17:55:07 pkra: there's also the bigger question that jcraig raised re headings without a level 17:55:35 pkra: but this part doesn't talk about heading level 17:55:46 sarah: this was originally written about trees, could be written explicitly 17:56:24 jcraig: don't necessarily think we should move forward with the default value change, unless heading is explicitly opted out of this, in the same PR. Because it will result in more user tedium, odd user tedium too 17:57:02 jcraig: in the grand scheme of things it's not the most important accessibility nag I have, but I do foresee user impact and increase of tedium for the user 17:57:30 pkra: when I tested, NVDA and JAWS were exposing @@@ 17:58:38 jcraig: in VoiceOver we try not to add more verbosity when not necessary, eg some Windows screenreaders say Tab when you press Tab while the user probably already knows they pressed that 17:59:16 sarah: agree with you… but this PR has tree groups, we could make it more explicitly 17:59:36 jcraig: does the user presented language affect the way tests are written? if the tests are written with headings undefined, that's how we need it written 18:00:00 sarah: I think it's already explicitly not headings, but will double check the wording to make sure 18:00:20 jcraig: one of the reason IDL project has been so complicated is prose based exceptions that are all throughout ARIA since many years 18:00:31 sarah: it's prose but written as an explicit set of logical steps 18:01:06 sarah: this was initiated by my desire to make flat trees possible… but we got somehwat sidetracked 18:01:26 keithamus: fwiw for the IDL stuff; if the attribute is not present the IDL should reflect now, don't think it would matter with regards to IDL 18:01:39 jcraig: so this particular change would not affect IDL at all, just host language IDL implementation? 18:01:40 keithamus: yes 18:01:44 jcraig: that's manageable tehn 18:01:49 s/tehn/then 18:02:12 sarah: @@@, the document outline was never really a thing 18:02:32 jcraig: based on keith's comment I think my concern is less relevant 18:03:02 Daniel: so you'll look at the wording Sarah? 18:03:11 sarah: yes 18:03:18 jcraig: we can also add rahim 18:03:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:04:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/06/26-aria-minutes.html Daniel 18:21:09 Francis_Storr has joined #aria