Meeting minutes
Slideset: https://
Welcome
Chris: Welcome to our monthly call. Apologies we didn't hold a call last month.
<kaz> Agenda for today
Chris: Agenda today:
… Authentic Web Workshop meeting on C2PA
… Media Metadata Japanese Community Group update
… TPAC 2025 Planning
… Sync on the Web Community Group update
… AV Media Formats for Browsers
… DataCue
… MSE issues next steps
… Anything else to add to the agenda today?
no other business
Authentic Web Workshop: C2PA
Chris: Idea was a workshop style of meetings addressing the general problem of misinfromation on the web.
… Motivation was seeing a number of technology solutions being developed and proposed
… so they wanted to facilitate conversations within W3C to see if anything should be taken forward
… for standardisation.
… I've been on the programme committee for this group, along with Dom, and others
… Two meetings.
… First was an introduction, second was about C2PA itself.
Session 1 (March 12) Introduction and Framework:
Chris: Upcoming are Trustnet and other topics. There then may be an in-person meeting
… to go through the relative advantages or disadvantages of each and look more closely at what
… W3C may want to standardise on this area.
… Focusing on C2PA, many of you will have heard Leonard presenting this more than a year ago.
… He talked about the overall design characteristics and what they are targeting,
… provenance metadata and signals for how to use the content, like opt-outs for AI scripting
… "do not train your AI models".
… They're looking at a solution for audio, and live video.
… They're also working on text and HTML, I don't know details of how they're thinking about that.
… Interesting area. Also developing UI level guidance.
… Then Brendan from IPTC talked about work they're doing on publisher identity and creating trust lists
… for publishing organisations.
… A number of GitHub issues were raised with specific questions.
… E.g. use of tech in open source software,
… use by different user groups like consumers and fact checkers, and how the signals are useful
… and may be interpreted.
… Some questions about extended use validation certificates.
… Links on the slides.
<kaz> Issue #17 - What sorts of software need to be able to produce "authentic[ated]" content?
Chris: Open Source is interesting: how do you keep your signing keys secret?
… Anyone can fork the project so how to make sure the signing keys are assigned?
… Seems they're thinking at a user level rather than a software version level.
Chris: Related to that, connecting a user's social media identity to the signing certs, or using verifiable credentials.
<igarashi> Session 3(June 10) Trustnet:
<kaz> Issue 20 - Browser API for C2PA
Chris: W3C could be looking at what a browser integration might look like.
… Increasing amount of content on the web with C2PA signatures.
… How is that surfaced to end users, and how do they interact with it?
… Currently via JS libraries and interfaces provided by the site you're looking at.
… If the browser is your trusted UA then would be good to prevent website spoofing it.
… That's the idea behind a browser API.
… The conversation is with Jeffrey Yasskin, one of the technical leaders on the Chromium project and the
… Google Chrome browser. He pointed to a project called signature based integrity.
… There's also subresource integrity that allows sites to validate that e.g. script code loaded into the page
… matches a hash or a signature. Signature based integrity extends that by using signing certs.
… Somewhat related technologies in development, interesting to compare with C2PA.
… A point that came up was that perhaps the browsers would be less trusting of what C2PA calls
… soft browsing. E.g. take an image, read the watermark and then recover the metadata.
… Images get manipulated or resized and then it is easy to lose the train of signatures and therefore
… having a mechanism to recover is seen as useful within the C2PA community.
… Depending on how robust it is, may or may not be something browsers want to adopt.
… I was encouraged by the conversation with Jeffrey on this because he was interested to engage
… in analysing the technology and providing feedback.
… Doesn't translate into Chrome support, there's a long way to go, not clear if they would support it
… and if anything is needed to enable it.
… Good to start the conversation though.
… Any opinions or questions around this?
Kaz: Thank you for your report, very useful.
… I was wondering if the MEIG might want to talk about some of those issues in detail
… during the early discussion? Or maybe not.
Chris: I don't know, I'm hopeful that the workshop meetings will come back to this topic, and perhaps
… do it there. I suggest let's see how the workshop meetings progress
… There are other things like audio and live video. The C2PA community have dedicated work within
… their consortium to develop those things. It would be interesting for us to hear how that is going.
… I remember when Leonard presented to us in this group, he invited us to contribute to that.
<igarashi> Chromium project ? https://
Chris: A useful thing to do might be to focus on the audio and live video cases,
… and at least hear about their latest developments.
Kaz: That's true. On the other hand, maybe re coordination, and how to integrate various different
… video streaming service with a consolidated metadata service, user credentials might come into it,
… so in 6 months or so we could revisit the results from the workshops.
Chris: Good suggestion, let's plan to do something like that.
Chris: Hopefully in that timescale the workshop will have produced more concrete suggestions.
RobSmith: Thanks Chris, on your comments about audio and video, also metadata, thinking from
… a news reporting point of view, if reports come in claiming to be form a location, verify that it is at
… that location, using metadata embedded into the video.
… You're not limited to a particular technology but it would be valuable if harnessed correctly,
… given the ease of filming with smartphones etc.
Chris: Yes it allows people to make claims but doesn't necessarily say if they are truthful or not.
… If you're looking to verify that a video was actually taken at the claimed location that would be an extra step.
RobSmith: I'm involved with a group called GeoPose in OGC which is not just about where you are but also where you're looking.
… That's how it works - look at key markers in the video image to determine where the video was taken.
… I can imagine independent fact checkers confirming location and signing it has been verified.
Chris: That's interesting.
RobSmith: It may not have been deliberately obfuscated because if people film important events that
… could be in a crisis zone etc the visual reference points you're expecting might not be there (any more).
… You may still have enough visual markers remaining to confirm location though.
Chris: If you've been following the workshop meeting, this would be good to discuss in that context.
… The layering approach makes a lot of sense.
… It's part of what the Chrome proposal being discussed next week may speak to,
… if it is intended to enable independent verification to determine veracity.
… The other thing is if the OGC has a relationship to C2PA.
… I don't participate in C2PA so I don't know, but maybe they could give valuable input through
… coordination.
… We could contact Leonard for introductions.
Kaz: Rob, thank you for your comment - it would be important for the Smart Cities discussion also.
… Let me talk with you offline
<igarashi> About the Signature based integrity, the difference from C2PA is if the certificate is embedded in a media. Is there any discussion on the difference?
Chris: Thank you, I don't know the detail on this.
… I would recommend to look at the GitHub conversation which is
… issue 20 w3c/
<RobSmith> https://
Chris: I don't know the difference in how it works, would need a more detailed comparison to understand that
… I haven't gone into that detail myself.
Igarashi: OK
Media Content Metadata Japanese CG
<kaz> Media Content Metadata Japanese CG
Endo: Hello, my name is Hiroki Endo from NHK, and I am chair of Media Content Metadata Japanese CG
… or MCMJ CG
… Thank you for the opportunity to share our recent activities.
… We are focusing on interoperability of media content metadata,
… starting with the Japanese media industry.
… Today I would like to share two key updates.
… In March 2025 we published a draft report titled : “Case Studies on Media Metadata Interoperability”
… in Japanese and English
… Some sections are still in Japanese only, but we are working on improving it.
… The report includes case studies from broadcasting and publishing.
… We would appreciate your feedback as we continue to refine the report.
<kaz> Draft CG Report on GitHub
Chris: Do you want general feedback or are there particular questions for more specific feedback?
Endo: We would like information we should add into the report such as related initiatives and specifications.
Chris: There may be more like from TV standards type bodies.
… I see you have DVB-I mentioned.
… We would need to study your use cases.
… I'm thinking of TV-Anytime, an ETSI specification.
… Is the approach you're taking to use this document to start drafting specifications,
… or is the scope of this more about the use cases and you would work on specifications in a new document?
Endo: This report only includes case studies, and after it is completed we will identify
… the technical requirements.
Chris: Thank you for sharing this.
Endo: The main content about use cases from industry is written only in Japanese now. I will update and
… in a future meeting share again with MEIG.
Chris: Thank you, that's very welcome. I think we can review this anyway using a translator.
… I guess the question I would have is whether other companies have use cases they would want to add to this?
Endo: Yes, the authors are from various industries. Shogakukan is a publishing company.
… Omron is a media editing software vendoe.
… M Data is a metadata company in broadcasting.
… Jorte Inc is an event metadata platform.
… They have mainly contributed use cases from their own industries.
Chris: What kind of event data is that?
Endo: Such as festivals. They have an event publication platform, and provide an application called Eventia.
… Users can build various events based on map information.
Chris: Interesting, thank you.
… I can see the use cases where you have media content in a video platform that you can link
… to related real world events and surface all of that to the user.
Kaz: Thank you Endo san and Chris.
… They have been collecting best practices for real events in Japan, and identifying pain points also.
… At some point after translating into English we can talk about their pain points and potential
… requirements for web standards.
Chris: Absolutely.
… I hope that they bring that to the CG to continue that work. Sounds good.
Igarashi: Thank you Endo san. I'm looking at your draft report and for me it is a little bit unclear
… what interoperability means here. You describe the exchange of metadata.
… The word interoperability has a slightly different meaning from these use cases.
… The use case should not be metadata interop but metadata exchange.
… The issue you want to address is interop between metadata, so you should describe the problems
… you want to address - this would be more helpful to cover with the CG.
Endo: Thank you very much, I agree with you.
… In our CG, interoperability solutions are mainly for exchanging metadata but
… each industry cannot identify the existence of each industry metadata includes their own industry metadata,
… so first, why we want to service interoperability and why we cannot service interoperability now
… in case studies we identify the existence of each industry's metadata and how to exchange each metadata.
… So data exchange is the main part of this report.
… I want you to read the examples of data exchange.
Igarashi: I am not an English speaker, but interoperability means that we have a standard but they
… have some issue implementing the spec. It feels like the interoperability is a standardisation issue.
… Does the CG want to define a common metadata format or just identify the different kinds of metadata,
… or an ontology? Which kind?
Endo: The later one [an ontology]
Endo: Ontology for media contents is not something we have a standard for in industry use cases.
Kaz: Just to make sure, this is a CG and I have been attending their meetings.
… I believe Endo San's objective is not to create an ontology but to identify best practices and pain points
… and then work with the other SDOs or WGs or IGs and think about how to achieve the expected
… standardisation with those stakeholders.
Chris: Makes sense, thank you.
… Finally, there's an upcoming showcase at the Interop Tokyo event next week.
TPAC 2025 planning
Chris: If you can, please look out for the showcase event.
… TPAC this year is in Kobe.
… Each group needs to make its requests for meeting time in the next few weeks.
… Deadline 20th June.
… The question for us is should we meet, and if so, how much time to allocate?
… My proposal is to do the same as last year,
… time for MEIG, time for joint meetings with groups like Timed Text, or the APA WG for accessibility topics.
… Once we have time allocated we can decide how to use that in terms of agenda and so on.
… I think we don't need to decide agenda right now but we will be planning that in the next months.
… Does anybody think we need more time than we had last year, or was last year okay?
… I can certainly request more time should we want it.
… Or does this proposal look good to you?
… Any thoughts?
<kaz> ME Issue 110 - TPAC 2025 planning
Chris: That's a GitHub issue that we will use to plan the agenda.
… I invite all of you to suggest the topics we want to cover.
… We will use that to plan the agendas.
… Following last year as the example we would continue that.
… If no questions...
In Brief
Sync on the Web Community Group
Komatsu: Based on the last discussion at TPAC I created this community group at the beginning of this year.
<kaz> Sync on the Web CG
Komatsu: I am now the Chair of the CG.
… This is focused on Media over QUIC, which has a bunch of fantastic features.
… One of them is synchronisation, because Media over QUIC can handle frame by frame, which is different
… to HLS etc.
… I am really happy for you to join the CG and talk about your use cases.
… Next IG meeting I will show you typical use cases for synchronisation on top of Media Over QUIC.
Chris: Thank you, that would be welcome.
… Congratulations on getting the CG up and running.
… I remember last TPAC you generated quite a lot of interest in the community.
… We're out of time now but I would like to invite you back next time to talk about this in more detail.
… This is good news.
<kaz> FYI, TPAC 2024 breakout 54 - Sync on Web, now and next of realtime media services on web
DataCue
Chris: We have been doing work on the DataCue API proposal.
… I haven't had time to review the latest stage of discussions but it feels like we want to continue
… the momentum on that.
… If it would be helpful to organise a technical discussion under WICG terms we coupd do that.
<cpn> Rob: We should discuss in WICG
<kaz> WICG Issue 35 - Proposal to expose HTML TextTrackCue constructor
Meeting close
Chris: Thank you everybody for joining, particularly those who presented updates.
… We will meet at the beginning of July. In the meantime, please share your thoughts on TPAC preparations
… on the GitHub issue, review the report on metadata and send feedback, and apologies for running
… 5 minutes over!
… [adjourns meeting]