Meeting minutes
New Issue Triage
james: we kind of support that on a few things right
<MarioB> join+
scott: we are getting some automated errors with firefox and safari
james: on the table ones, we support it on a parent, instead of only on the cell itself
jamesn: its a good idea if we can get browsers to buy in
<aardrian> +1
jamesn: any one disagree?
(none)
melsumner: do we have a label for "needs interop"?
jamesn: I think this one is more like the spec needs the PR first, before it is an interop issue
scott: not a bad idea, after the PR is made
<melsumner> FWIW I was curious about it because I saw this same type of issue on some other repo (where some browsers do a thing but some don't)
Rahim: there was an issue that has resurface regarding the validity idl, basically there is a validity state that applies to html input elements. the idl attribute flags whether the element is in a invalid state.
Rahim: this validity idl has a mapping to aria-invalid
Rahim: there are a couple of similar cases in html-aam, where we have an idl element that is impacted by and ARIA attribute, Anna explained that we (the ARIA working group) needs to use the HTML definition of what is causing that thing to be valid or indeterminate
Rahim: So HTML-AAM should probably be updated
scott: thanks for looking into this Rahim, I was wondering in general, steve made this PR a long time ago, it might make sense to have another section about IDL in the html spec rather than sandwhiching this in with the other attributes
scott: we can write an explainer about idl
Rahim: idl has been my life this last year, happy to keep working on this and that idea
mcking: I have a question about aria-invalid though
mcking: conceptually, is it that aria-invalid should be true when a required field is empty?
mcking: I always thought that was annoying
scott: I think we took care of this in other PRs
mcking: Rahim mentioned that specifically, so I was curious
scott: pretty sure we put stuff in there to prevent aria-invalid from being set until someone interacts with it
<melsumner> I thought aria-invalid was more about the validation rather than required?
<melsumner> Like, the data is there but isn't correct?
Rahim: yeah, not to get too deep, validity is an object that contains multiple flags. we can expose aria-invalid true based on these values
mcking: ok great, great to hear we have more control
mcking: why is this specifically about single page apps?
<Rahim> ValidityState for HTML input elements (reflected as `validity` attribute in IDL): https://
adrian: because that is where they are having trouble controlling focus
jamesn: with the amount of stuff going on this, we don't need to discuss in triage, lets agenda for next week and see how the discussion has gone by then
pkra: you can assign that to me, I already asked a follow up question
pkra: it's a really old part of the spec
pkra: it's an editorial change
New PR Triage
jamesn: Process update, we discussed with Wilco and axe core maintainers, just like we file issues against browser, we will flag issues that requires checkers to do something
jamesn: to alert people earlier on
jamesn: we have a number of members in this group that are members of ACT, and our staff contact
https://
rahim: will this require implementation change?
spectranaut_: I'm not sure yet, I haven't looked at firefox or chrome yet
WPT Open PRs
Rahim: I'll take a look
Deep Dive planning
jamesn: I don't think we have discussed this: w3c/
jamesn: we need an anaylsis before we can deep dive. anyone else?
TPAC - will we meet? - 10-14 November 2025, Kobe, Japan.
jamesn: we have a survey about whether we are meeting at TPAC. our presumption is that we are meeting, not asking for commitments, but assuming we have enought interest?
<pkra> -1
<katez> -1
<CurtBellew> +1
<Francis_Storr> -1
<keithamus> +1
<janefulton> 0
<spectranaut_> +1
<jamesn> +1
<aardrian> +1
<giacomo-petri> +1
<melsumner> +1
<Matt_King> +1
<StefanS> +1
jamesn: it looks like enough people are going to try to attend
jamesn: I prefer to meet earlier in the week rather than later
jamesn: specifically not meeting on friday
mcking: yeah friday's are a lot cause
adrian: my only hope is that they are lumped together so I can vacation around it ... :)
jamesn: but so much happens at TPAC all week :D
ARIA IDL updates: enumerated attribute conversions, new "enumerated" wai-aria type, IDL examples
jamesn: lots of discussion on this
jamesn: what do you need from us Rahim?
Rahim: the good news is that I converted it from draft to ready to review
Rahim: Anna is happy, I've addressed Keith's concerns.
Rahim: (explains the PR)
Rahim: I'm reasonably confident that we have resolved all the edge cases and issues, and it needs review, but it is substantially
Rahim: for this change, what it actually means? I created a simulator to show
<jamesn> https://
Rahim: clarifies what the attribute actually means
keithamus: (missed question)
Rahim: (answers but scribe didn't catch)
keithamus: I"m a bit confused, it sounded like when the accessibility engine kicks in, it will change the value?
Rahim: the engine will not change the value, but determine which value to expose to ATs
Rahim: the accessibility engine will use the values in the "missing value default" to determine the value to expose in the tree
Rahim: you need an default that you can't get from the content attribute
Rahim: one of the things that helped me in talking to Anna, Anna is separating a difference between the IDL work and the assistive technology experience
Rahim: how is the developer interacting with the IDL, and what is the browser doing seperately
Rahim: aria-orientation, depending on the role, undefined means different things
keithamus: does this need a deep dive? are there web observable changes, have you enumerated them?
Rahim: I have explained a bit in the simulator
keithamus: I'm more curious if a user of javascript will observe any changes, would a javascript user would change how they handle these values?
Rahim: no they aren't observable
pkra: rahim I saw that you are changing the tables, have you checked that aria.js still works
Rahim: I didn't change any tables, I reused existing classes
Rahim: I added a column, I thought it was ok if it used an existing CSS calss
pkra: its more about the data extraction that is needed
pkra: lets talk about this in the editors meeting
pkra: I'll take a look
cyns: you can put me down for review as well
Rahim: about the tool you can use, I would encourage if you play around with it, to understand what setting the content attribute and javascript does
Rahim: the javascript side does validation
Rahim: this should ground what all of this is about
Rahim: take a look there before reviewing the PR
scott: I have a question about WPT test stuff
scott: about opening bugs on browsers
scott: I thought one of the benefits of creating WPT was that it creates issues on browser
webkit doesn't make auto bugs, but apparently firefox and chrome does
scott: I'm fine doing the bug filing, but these seems like extra busy work
scott: I dread filing these bugs, but tester bother me for information
keithamus: on the standards issue trackers, maybe there
<keithamus> mozilla/
spectranaut_: It helps to have issues on browsers linked from the description, because then we know when we can merge a PR
spectranaut_: I need to see if there is implementations or implementation support, which I can see by clicking on the linked bug
spectranaut_: I'll try to write guidance on how to make bugs on browsers