16:53:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:53:57 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/05/08-aria-irc
16:53:57 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:53:58 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:54:04 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:54:04 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:54:04 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/d1a90482-3ceb-477c-af47-e843d2d50d67/20250508T130000/
16:54:04 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:54:04 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/433LHzU
16:54:05 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-04-24+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues
16:54:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
16:54:10 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:54:13 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC - will we meet? - 10-14 November 2025, Kobe, Japan.
16:54:16 <agendabot> agenda+ -> ARIA IDL updates: enumerated attribute conversions, new "enumerated" wai-aria type, IDL examples https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2484
16:59:34 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
17:00:50 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:01:54 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:02:09 <spectranaut_> scribe: spectranaut_
17:02:12 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
17:02:20 <aardrian> present+
17:02:20 <katez> katez has joined #aria
17:02:22 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:02:22 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/433LHzU -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:02:26 <katez> present+
17:02:28 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:02:29 <CurtBellew> present+
17:02:39 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2528
17:02:58 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:03:35 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
17:03:45 <scott> scott has joined #aria
17:03:56 <spectranaut_> james: we kind of support that on a few things right
17:03:59 <melsumner> present+
17:04:12 <MarioB> join+
17:04:12 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:04:14 <spectranaut_> scott: we are getting some automated errors with firefox and safari
17:04:15 <pkra> present+
17:04:31 <scott> present+
17:04:32 <spectranaut_> james: on the table ones, we support it on a parent, instead of only on the cell itself
17:04:47 <spectranaut_> jamesn: its a good idea if we can get browsers to buy in
17:04:53 <aardrian> +1
17:04:55 <spectranaut_> jamesn: any one disagree?
17:04:57 <spectranaut_> (none)
17:05:18 <spectranaut_> melsumner: do we have a label for "needs interop"?
17:05:18 <Rahim> present+
17:05:35 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I think this one is more like the spec needs the PR first, before it is an interop issue
17:05:47 <spectranaut_> scott: not a bad idea, after the PR is made
17:05:58 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/582
17:06:21 <melsumner> FWIW I was curious about it because I saw this same type of issue on some other repo (where some browsers do a thing but some don't)
17:06:39 <janefulton> janefulton has joined #aria
17:06:50 <spectranaut_> Rahim: there was an issue that has resurface regarding the validity idl, basically there is a validity state that applies to html input elements. the idl attribute flags whether the element is in a invalid state.
17:07:04 <spectranaut_> Rahim: this validity idl has a mapping to aria-invalid
17:08:04 <scott> q+
17:08:04 <spectranaut_> Rahim: there are a couple of similar cases in html-aam, where we have an idl element that is impacted by and ARIA attribute, Anna explained that we (the ARIA working group) needs to use the HTML definition of what is causing that thing to be valid or indeterminate
17:08:14 <spectranaut_> Rahim: So HTML-AAM should probably be updated
17:08:19 <jamesn> ack scott
17:08:46 <spectranaut_> scott: thanks for looking into this Rahim, I was wondering in general, steve made this PR a long time ago, it might make sense to have another section about IDL in the html spec rather than sandwhiching this in with the other attributes
17:08:50 <Siri> Siri has joined #aria
17:09:00 <spectranaut_> scott: we can write an explainer about idl
17:09:10 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:09:16 <StefanS> present+
17:09:20 <spectranaut_> Rahim: idl has been my life this last year, happy to keep working on this and that idea
17:10:16 <janefulton> janefulton has joined #aria
17:10:27 <spectranaut_> mcking: I  have a question about aria-invalid though
17:11:04 <spectranaut_> mcking: conceptually, is it that aria-invalid should be true when a required field is empty?
17:11:14 <spectranaut_> mcking: I always thought that was annoying
17:11:22 <Siri> present+
17:11:25 <spectranaut_> scott: I think we took care of this in other PRs
17:11:37 <spectranaut_> mcking: Rahim mentioned that specifically, so I was curious
17:11:56 <spectranaut_> scott: pretty sure we put stuff in there to prevent aria-invalid from being set until someone interacts with it
17:11:56 <Rahim> q+
17:12:06 <melsumner> I thought aria-invalid was more about the validation rather than required?
17:12:19 <melsumner> Like, the data is there but isn't correct?
17:12:34 <spectranaut_> Rahim: yeah, not to get too deep, validity is an object that contains multiple flags.  we can expose aria-invalid true based on these values
17:12:51 <spectranaut_> mcking: ok great, flag to hear we have more control
17:13:02 <jamesn> ack Rahim
17:13:08 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2525
17:14:31 <spectranaut_> s/flag to/great to/
17:14:45 <spectranaut_> mcking: why is this specifically about single page apps?
17:14:50 <Rahim> ValidityState for HTML input elements (reflected as `validity` attribute in IDL): https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/form-control-infrastructure.html#validitystate
17:15:06 <spectranaut_> adrian: because that is where they are having trouble controlling focus
17:15:33 <spectranaut_> jamesn: with the amount of stuff going on this, we don't need to discuss in triage, lets agenda for next week and see how the discussion has gone by then
17:15:58 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2521
17:15:58 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:16:13 <spectranaut_> pkra: you can assign that to me, I already asked a follow up question
17:16:32 <spectranaut_> pkra: it's a really old part of the spec
17:16:52 <spectranaut_> pkra: it's an editorial change
17:16:58 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:16:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created%3A%3E%3D2025-04-24+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:16 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2527
17:17:46 <spectranaut_> jamesn: Process update, we discussed with Wilco and axe core maintainers, just like we file issues against browser, we will flag issues that requires checkers to do something
17:17:57 <spectranaut_> jamesn: to alert people earlier on
17:18:58 <spectranaut_> jamesn: we have a number of members in this group that are members of ACT, and our staff contact
17:19:43 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2526\
17:19:46 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2526
17:20:06 <spectranaut_> rahim: will this require implementation change?
17:20:17 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_: I'm not sure yet, I haven't looked at firefox or chrome yet
17:21:03 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:21:03 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:22:09 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/52159
17:22:18 <spectranaut_> Rahim: I'll take a look
17:22:24 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:22:24 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:22:28 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:23:12 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #aria
17:23:15 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I don't think we have discussed this: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/562
17:23:26 <spectranaut_> jamesn: we need an anaylsis before we can deep dive. anyone else?
17:23:30 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:23:30 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- TPAC - will we meet? - 10-14 November 2025, Kobe, Japan. -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:05 <spectranaut_> jamesn: we have a survey about whether we are meeting at TPAC. our presumption is that we are meeting, not asking for commitments, but assuming we have enought internests?
17:24:23 <pkra> -1
17:24:25 <katez> -1
17:24:26 <CurtBellew> +1
17:24:26 <spectranaut_> s/internests/interest/
17:24:27 <Francis_Storr> -1
17:24:28 <keithamus> +1
17:24:29 <janefulton> 0
17:24:29 <spectranaut_> +1
17:24:29 <jamesn> +1
17:24:30 <aardrian> +1
17:24:31 <giacomo-petri> +1
17:24:34 <melsumner> +1
17:24:39 <Matt_King> +1
17:24:44 <StefanS> +1
17:25:01 <spectranaut_> jamesn: it looks like enough people are going to try to attend
17:25:25 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I prefer to meet earlier in the week rather than later
17:25:40 <spectranaut_> jamesn: specifically not meeting on friday
17:25:48 <spectranaut_> mcking: yeah friday's are a lot cause
17:26:07 <spectranaut_> adrian: my only hope is that they are lumped together so I can vacation around it ... :)
17:26:23 <spectranaut_> jamesn: but so  much happens at TPAC all week :D
17:26:47 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:26:47 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> ARIA IDL updates: enumerated attribute conversions, new "enumerated" wai-aria type, IDL examples https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2484 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:27:06 <spectranaut_> jamesn: lots of discussion on this
17:27:12 <spectranaut_> jamesn: what do you need from us Rahim?
17:27:22 <spectranaut_> Rahim: the good news is that I converted it from draft to ready to review
17:27:42 <spectranaut_> Rahim: Anna is happy, I've addressed Keith's  concerns.
17:28:06 <spectranaut_> Rahim: (explains the PR)
17:28:31 <spectranaut_> Rahim: I'm reasonably confident that we have resolved all the edge cases and issues, and it needs review, but it is substantially
17:28:59 <spectranaut_> Rahim: for this change, what it actually means? I created a simulator to show
17:29:17 <jamesn> https://rahimabdi.github.io/aria-idl-simulator/
17:29:33 <spectranaut_> Rahim: clarifies what the attribute actually means
17:30:28 <spectranaut_> keithamus: (missed question)
17:31:15 <spectranaut_> Rahim: (answers but  scribe didn't catch)
17:31:35 <spectranaut_> keithamus: I"m a bit confused, it sounded like when the accessibility engine kicks in, it will change the value?
17:31:54 <spectranaut_> Rahim: the engine will not change the value, but determine which value to expose to ATs
17:32:08 <jamesn> agenda?
17:32:31 <spectranaut_> Rahim: the accessibility engine will use the values in the "miss value default" to determine the value to expose in the tree
17:32:54 <spectranaut_> s/miss value/missing value/
17:33:08 <spectranaut_> Rahim: you need an default that you can't get from the content attribute
17:33:41 <spectranaut_> Rahim: one of the things that helped me in talking to Anna, Anna is separating a difference between the IDL work and the assistive technology  experience
17:34:21 <spectranaut_> Rahim: how is the developer interacting with the IDL, and what is the browser doing seperately
17:34:56 <spectranaut_> Rahim: aria-orientation, depending on the role, undefined means different things
17:35:17 <spectranaut_> keithamus: does this need a deep dive? are there web observable changes, have you enumerated them?
17:35:26 <spectranaut_> Rahim: I have explained a bit in the simulator
17:35:30 <Mario> Mario has joined #ARIA
17:36:04 <spectranaut_> keithamus: I'm more curious if a user of javascript will observe any changes, would a javascript user would change how they handle these values?
17:36:10 <spectranaut_> Rahim: no they aren't observable
17:37:22 <pkra> q+
17:37:45 <jamesn> ack pkra
17:38:06 <spectranaut_> pkra: rahim I saw that you are changing the tables, have you checked that aria.js still works
17:38:16 <spectranaut_> Rahim: I didn't change any tables, I reused existing classes
17:38:28 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:38:29 <spectranaut_> Rahim: I added a column, I thought it was ok if it used an existing CSS calss
17:38:38 <cyns> q+
17:38:42 <spectranaut_> pkra: its more about the data extraction that is needed
17:38:50 <spectranaut_> pkra: lets talk about this in the editors meeting
17:39:37 <spectranaut_> pkra: I'll take a look
17:39:56 <jamesn> ack cyns
17:39:58 <spectranaut_> cyns: you can put me down for review as well
17:40:37 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:40:47 <spectranaut_> Rahim: about the tool you can use, I would encourage if you play around with it, to understand what setting the content attribute and javascript does
17:40:55 <spectranaut_> Rahim: the javascript side does validation
17:41:08 <spectranaut_> Rahim: this should ground what all of this is about
17:41:14 <spectranaut_> Rahim: take a look there before reviewing the PR
17:41:26 <jamesn> q?
17:42:07 <spectranaut_> scott: I have a question about WPT test stuff
17:42:16 <spectranaut_> scott: about opening bugs on browsers
17:42:35 <spectranaut_> scott: I thought one of the benefits of creating WPT was that it creates issues on browser
17:44:38 <spectranaut_> webkit doesn't make auto bugs, but apparently firefox and chrome does
17:44:59 <spectranaut_> scott: I'm fine doing the bug filing, but these seems like extra busy work
17:46:27 <spectranaut_> scott: I dread filing these bugs, but tester bother me for information
17:46:44 <spectranaut_> keithamus: on the standards  issue trackers, maybe there
17:49:23 <keithamus> https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions https://github.com/webkit/standards-positions
17:50:08 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_: It helps to have issues on browsers linked from the description, because then we know when we can merge a PR
17:50:28 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_: I need to see if there is implementations or implementation support, which I can see by clicking on the linked bug
17:50:45 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_: I'll try to write guidance on how to make bugs on browsers
17:50:52 <spectranaut_> Zakim, end meeting
17:50:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been aardrian, katez, giacomo-petri, CurtBellew, Francis_Storr, melsumner, pkra, scott, Rahim, StefanS, Siri, keithamus
17:50:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:50:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/05/08-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:51:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, spectranaut_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:51:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:02:55 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
19:28:20 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
19:53:57 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
19:58:17 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria
20:08:30 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria
20:12:21 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
20:51:09 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria
21:23:15 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
22:27:08 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
23:55:57 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria