Meeting minutes
<hdv> https://
Definition of Views
<JJ> hdv is presenting views, mentioning that the subgroup started after TPAC and it reopens the work on defining view - which was attempted in the past
<JJ> Presentation link: https://
@hdv describing problem WG view subgroup is trying to solve. That "page" can be problematic for content outside of web
<JJ> hdv: There are 16 SC's that mention "webpages" in their definition + in all the supporting understanding documents
<JJ> hdv: Also got feedback from AG WG yesterday, still to be incorporated in the doc
@hdv "View" would replace "page". View is used in WCAG 3
hdv giving examples of term replacement in the WCAG specs
<JJ> hdv: Goal is to use terminology that matches how people/developers are already using them, e.g. avoid confusion
<pauljadam> I'm calling them Pages to align with WCAG e.g. for Page Titles so I don't have to say "Screen Titles" or "View Titles" as I don't think that's meaningful.
<pauljadam> When I think of Screen I think of Screenshot which is only the portion of the page that is visible e.g. "above the fold". I think Page covers the whole page and aligns to WCAG easily
hdv the new term works for more than just websites
<pauljadam> "Screen Title" or "View Title" is not meaningful to me compared to "Page Title"
<pauljadam> Here just remove the word "on a web page" you don't need to add "in a view"
<pauljadam> Seems easier to just remove page rather than adding in "view"
<pauljadam> "Set of Views" does not make sense to me 🤷‍♂️
<pauljadam> A View could be a modal dialog but a Page can contain a modal dialog
<pauljadam> "Language of View" ???
hdv mentioning that there are many definitions of views used in different contexts and by different people
hdv shared "view" definition from WCAG 3 and then proposed changes from the subgroup
<JJ> hdv: Suggested view definition: "Testing scope that includes all content visually and programmatically available without a significant change at a given time, with the same purpose or for the same task"
hdv proposed changes: adding clarity and brevity, 3 definitions "View", "Set of Views" and "Subview"
<JJ> hdv: Note 1: Viewport-based variations (like small and large screens; dialogs opened and closed) are considered part of th same view.
<JJ> hdv: Note 2: Examples of views includ a "web page", as used in WCAG 2, and a "screen" in a mobile app.
<pauljadam> Rregular folks don't refer to things as "views" unless they're talking about the view outside their window.
<JJ> hdv: Note 3: People should test all variations of the same view.
<pauljadam> If you call into tech support they wont say "Go to the Support View" they would say go to the "Support Page"
hdv provides definitions of "Views", "Set of Views" and "Subview". See linked google doc
<JJ> hdv: Showing examples of views / subviews / components in YouTube
hdv full definitions: View
testing scope that includes all content visually and programmatically available without a significant change at a given time, with the same purpose or for the same task.
Note 1: Viewport-based variations (like small and large screen) and permutations (like dialogs opened and closed) are considered part of the same view.
Note 2: Examples of views include a “web page”, as used in WCAG 2, and a “screen” in a mobile app.
Note 3: People should test all variations and permutations of the same view.
Set of views
collection of views that share a common purpose and that are created by the same author, group or organization
<Jon_Gibbins> pauljadam: I would assume that this work is to support the standards that will contain defined terms, and not meant for discussion by general public.
Subview
view that is contained within another view, that you can only get to from the main view, for instance a modal dialog or drawer.
<pauljadam> I think it adds confusion that is not needed. I would leave it as "Page".
hdv talked about open questions from the "view" subgroup
<RobW> As a mobile dev the word 'view' here doesn't quite make sense to me. To me a view is a modular component that may or may not be interactive, and may or may not be visible, that can be built into something larger. I would generally use 'screen' to mean the equivalent of a webpage.
hdv open questions:
Do we need view vs subview?
Do we see ways this new definition could open loopholes that lead to less accessibility?
Should we define “component” too?
<Jon_Gibbins> For me, “view” is too ambiguous. In our mobile context, I feel “screen” is a closer fit to “page”. My suggestions documented in MATF Issue 11 (w3c/
<JJ> hdv: Responding to remarks of pauljadam about why not using Page instead of View. Hidde mentions that this was also noted in the AG WG meeting yesterday.
<RobW> I don't mind Paul's suggestion of using 'Page'. It bridges the gap between mobile and web quite nicely, but doesn't quite feel 'native-first'.
hdv discussing audience comment from pauljadam about removing the word "page" as an alternate
pauljadam feel he would rather just leave pages as is
<pauljadam> MVC
<JJ> Megan_Pletzer: Mentions that view could be confusing for app developers, because components are named like ImageView, etc.
<Zakim> JJ, you wanted to mention View -> Page and Subview -> View
JJ agrees with some of the comments. Mentioned the need for a broader term covering use cases outside of the web
JJ talks about alternatives. such as leaving the term "page", but adding other terms like "component" and providing a new definition of "view"
JJ and pauljadam discuss the terms begin used by users. Do they say "page" or "screen"?
@JJ brings up lack of terms that cover VR/AR
pauljadam suggests what screen means "above the fold" and how page could be applied to AR/VR
<Zakim> JJ, you wanted to mention page vs screen
hdv says thank you for the feedback and there were some new comments
JJ suggests that screen would be "above the fold" and the page for mobile would be the whole content above and below the fold
pauljadam said that a screen could be part of a a larger context
pauljadam brings up page title vs screen title in context of modal dialog
@jamie brought up that "screen" title are already possible for mobile apps
<Zakim> Jamie, you wanted to ask about set of software clause
pauljadam said that it is Navigation title in iOS
@jamie asked about how the terms will be used by the subgroup
hdv talks about what WCAG SC would be affected by the new term or changing terms
<JJ> hdv: Mentions that it will be unlikely to update WCAG 2.2 with the new view definitions - but WCAG2ICT and WCAG2Mobile seems possible
<pauljadam> "Page within a set of related Pages"
@jamie says that the changes would affect both WCAG2ICT and our groups work
@jamie talks about how this will affect "sets of [items]"
<JJ> Jon_Gibbins: My thinking was towards screen, but it's very difficult to find the right terminology in the English language.
<JJ> Jon_Gibbins: Page is a physical limited box, and we have to take that to a digital paradigm where it is not limited
Jon_Gibbins says definition of screen can be changed to suit the context
<JJ> Jon_Gibbins: In Android, what you are doing is part of an Activity
Jon_Gibbins mentions that Android uses the term "activity"
<JJ> (In Android, you also have Fragment, for part of view, and View, for a 'view')
<JJ> (in iOS, Activity would be ViewController?)
<RobW> Activity probably works great here, but is very Android specific.
<pauljadam> I don't think end users call anything inside an app an activity and that's not an iOS term
Jon_Gibbins reset the model. suggests that we are used to the term page. talks about comparing back to the physical word, i.e. "page"
<JJ> Activity / Controller are similar though.
GleidsonRamos agrees about keeping the term "page". Does not see other terms working in all contexts
<Zakim> JJ, you wanted to ask about WCAG2ICT scope
<pauljadam> in a sigle page app that is just talking about how it's developed but the end users sees it as multiple pages
JJ new terms would not be used in WCAG 2.x as hdv had mentioned previously. IS WCAG2ICT considering VR/AR. could use the term page
<Jon_Gibbins> pauljadam: Can you clarify who you mean by end users?
hdv talks about the subgroup under WCAG 3 so it may not be able to apply to WCAG 2.x, but there are discussions. Feels the new terms are important to WCAG-EM. Will take the feedback from this group back to the subgroup. Including the feeling on term "page"
<pauljadam> by end users I mean the regular non developer folks using an app
<Jon_Gibbins> End users of the standard (mobile practitioners) or end users of the products and services (general public)?
<pauljadam> like the users you would recruit for a usability test
<pauljadam> people using an SPA don't know it's a single page, they think it's multiple pages
@jamie discussing types of views and types of screen and the similarities across the screens. How are these terms going to be used in larger grouping contexts. There will be differences for example Mobile app vs Single Page Applications
<Jon_Gibbins> Okay, thanks. I’m not sure end users should necessarily by the audience for the terminology, though. End users don’t talk about authentication, concurrent input mechanisms, actuation… ?
hdv talks about the complexity of applying terms to Single Page Applications or VR
pauljadam users of the content view a single page application as multiple pages
<Zakim> JJ, you wanted to mention that WCAG2ICT and WCAG2Mobile could replace "view" with their context, e.g. "screen" in our guidance
pauljadam and hdv talk about how single page applications may or may not use different URLs. pauljadam mentioned mobile apps and kiosks do not use URLs
JJ thanked hdv for coming and asked how to track comments from today's meeting. WCAG Github issue or attending WG AG larger meeting or by email
JJ final thought. If larger group decides to use "view" our group could choose to replace the term. e.g. "page" or "screen"
<pauljadam> Use "Page" everywhere! less confusion!
JJ could introduce new term that link to the chosen term(s) from the "view" subgroup. Talks about terms and different audiences
JJ mentions when the AG WG group meets
2.4.7 Focus Visible
@JJ WCAG2Mobile will be presented as Axe Con
@jamie Talking about the conference presentation. Discusses overview of what presentation will cover
@jamie progress of group over the past year, small changes vs larger changes and timeline for publishing this groups guidance. What we have been doing, our published work, how people can comment, and timeline. Aligning to WCAG2ICT vs WCAG
JJ how can people in this group provide feedback on the proposed Axe Con presentation?
@jamie talks about small variation vs large variation and how not all SCs from WCAG/WCAG2ICT have been drafted
@jamie mentions that the presentation is next Thursday. Wants audience from this group to keep the presenters accurate
JJ mentions other Mobile related presentations happening at Axe C
at Axe Con
<JJ> w3c/
3.2.1 On Focus
JJ showing comments on GitHub issue for our draft of WCAG SC 2.4.7 focus visible. suggests adding any comments to the github issue
@JJ also asks to comment on github issues for definition of "user interface component" and SC 3.2.1 On Focus
4.1.2 Name, Role, Value
JJ mentioned adding comments for SC 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value
<pauljadam> I would leave focus visible as is
<pauljadam> Same for On Focus would leave as is
<pauljadam> Mostly my philosophy will be to leave WCAG as written and then apply that to mobile but I would not change the wording of WCAG.
JJ said new agenda items will be added for next week. Talked about CFC being published and asked for people to +1 or vote on the CFC, but JJ cannot vote because he is chair
<JJ> w3c/
JJ reminds people to provide further feedback on "views" subgroup to hdv