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13:56:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/02/19-matf-irc
13:56:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:56:13 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:56:16 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 19 February 2025
13:56:16 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:56:21 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 19 February 2025
13:56:26 <JJ> chair+
13:56:44 <JJ> agenda+ Definition of Views
13:56:47 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.7 Focus Visible
13:56:51 <JJ> agenda+ 3.2.1 On Focus
13:56:55 <JJ> agenda+ 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value
13:57:08 <Joe_Humbert> present+
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13:59:34 <Tim> Tim has joined #matf
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14:00:16 <hdv> present+
14:00:26 <Tim> present+
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14:00:54 <pauljadam> present+
14:01:25 <GleidsonRamos> present+
14:01:56 <JJ> regrets+ AlainVagner
14:02:00 <JJ> regrets+ JeroenHulscher
14:02:05 <JJ> regrets+ Karla
14:02:07 <hdv> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cBLfSLZLq_mjICN9IKWD4-4PIOxQQzwvdRBWzFBnsyA/
14:02:11 <JJ> regrets+ Aash
14:02:33 <Tanya> present+
14:02:49 <RobW> RobW has joined #matf
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14:03:09 <JJ> Zakim, nominate a scribe
14:03:09 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pauljadam
14:03:18 <JJ> Zakim, nominate a scribe
14:03:18 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Joe_Humbert
14:03:39 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
14:03:48 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:03:48 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Definition of Views -- taken up [from JJ]
14:03:51 <JJ> scribe+ Joe_Humbert
14:03:56 <Megan_Pletzer> present+
14:04:06 <julianmka> present+
14:04:57 <JJ> hdv is presenting views, mentioning that the subgroup started after TPAC and it reopens the work on defining view - which was attempted in the past
14:05:16 <JJ> Presentation link: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cBLfSLZLq_mjICN9IKWD4-4PIOxQQzwvdRBWzFBnsyA/
14:05:55 <Jon_Gibbins> Jon_Gibbins has joined #matf
14:06:20 <Joe_Humbert> @hdv describing problem WG view subgroup is trying to solve. That "page" can be problematic for content outside of web
14:06:41 <JJ> hdv: There are 16 SC's that mention "webpages" in their definition + in all the supporting understanding documents
14:07:10 <Jon_Gibbins> present+
14:07:12 <JJ> hdv: Also got feedback from AG WG yesterday, still to be incorporated in the doc
14:07:51 <Joe_Humbert> @hdv "View" would replace "page". View is used in WCAG 3
14:08:29 <Joe_Humbert> hdv giving examples of term replacement in the WCAG specs
14:08:46 <JJ> hdv: Goal is to use terminology that matches how people/developers are already using them, e.g. avoid confusion
14:09:12 <pauljadam> I'm calling them Pages to align with WCAG e.g. for Page Titles so I don't have to say "Screen Titles" or "View Titles" as I don't think that's meaningful.
14:09:12 <pauljadam> When I think of Screen I think of Screenshot which is only the portion of the page that is visible e.g. "above the fold". I think Page covers the whole page and aligns to WCAG easily
14:09:30 <Joe_Humbert> hdv the new term works for more than just websites
14:09:30 <pauljadam> "Screen Title" or "View Title" is not meaningful to me compared to "Page Title"
14:09:30 <pauljadam> Here just remove the word "on a web page" you don't need to add "in a view"
14:09:30 <pauljadam> Seems easier to just remove page rather than adding in "view"
14:09:30 <pauljadam> "Set of Views" does not make sense to me 🤷‍♂️
14:09:31 <pauljadam> A View could be a modal dialog but a Page can contain a modal dialog
14:10:11 <pauljadam> "Language of View" ???
14:10:23 <Joe_Humbert> hdv mentioning that there are many definitions of views used in different contexts and by different people
14:11:08 <Joe_Humbert> hdv shared "view" definition from WCAG 3 and then proposed changes from the subgroup
14:12:35 <JJ> hdv: Suggested view definition: "Testing scope that includes all content visually and programmatically available without a significant change at a given time, with the same purpose or for the same task"
14:12:38 <Joe_Humbert> hdv proposed changes: adding clarity and brevity, 3 definitions "View", "Set of Views" and "Subview"
14:12:55 <JJ> hdv: Note 1: Viewport-based variations (like small and large screens; dialogs opened and closed) are considered part of th same view.
14:13:14 <JJ> hdv: Note 2: Examples of views includ a "web page", as used in WCAG 2, and a "screen" in a mobile app.
14:13:21 <pauljadam> Rregular folks don't refer to things as "views" unless they're talking about the view outside their window.
14:13:22 <JJ> hdv: Note 3: People should test all variations of the same view.
14:13:55 <pauljadam> If you call into tech support they wont say "Go to the Support View" they would say go to the "Support Page"
14:14:04 <Joe_Humbert> hdv provides definitions of "Views", "Set of Views" and "Subview". See linked google doc
14:14:12 <JJ> hdv: Showing examples of views / subviews / components in YouTube
14:15:37 <Joe_Humbert> hdv full definitions: View
14:15:37 <Joe_Humbert> testing scope that includes all content visually and programmatically available without a significant change at a given time, with the same purpose or for the same task.
14:15:37 <Joe_Humbert> Note 1: Viewport-based variations (like small and large screen) and permutations (like dialogs opened and closed) are considered part of the same view.
14:15:37 <Joe_Humbert> Note 2: Examples of views include a “web page”, as used in WCAG 2, and a “screen” in a mobile app.
14:15:39 <Joe_Humbert> Note 3: People should test all variations and  permutations of the same view.
14:15:39 <Joe_Humbert> Set of views
14:15:39 <Joe_Humbert> collection of views that share a common purpose and that are created by the same author, group or organization
14:15:39 <Jon_Gibbins> pauljadam: I would assume that this work is to support the standards that will contain defined terms, and not meant for discussion by general public.
14:15:40 <Joe_Humbert> Subview
14:15:40 <Joe_Humbert> view that is contained within another view, that you can only get to from the main view, for instance a modal dialog or drawer.
14:16:09 <pauljadam> I think it adds confusion that is not needed. I would leave it as "Page".
14:16:20 <Joe_Humbert> hdv talked about open questions from the "view" subgroup
14:16:34 <hdv> q?
14:16:41 <RobW> As a mobile dev the word 'view' here doesn't quite make sense to me. To me a view is a modular component that may or may not be interactive, and may or may not be visible, that can be built into something larger. I would generally use 'screen' to mean the equivalent of a webpage.
14:16:41 <Megan_Pletzer> q+
14:16:48 <Joe_Humbert> hdv open questions:
14:16:48 <Joe_Humbert> Do we need view vs subview?
14:16:48 <Joe_Humbert> Do we see ways this new definition could open loopholes that lead to less accessibility?
14:16:48 <Joe_Humbert> Should we define “component” too?
14:17:20 <Jon_Gibbins> For me, “view” is too ambiguous. In our mobile context, I feel “screen” is a closer fit to “page”. My suggestions documented in MATF Issue 11 (https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/11#issuecomment-2621464584)
14:17:28 <JJ> hdv: Responding to remarks of pauljadam about why not using Page instead of View. Hidde mentions that this was also noted in the AG WG meeting yesterday.
14:17:55 <RobW> I don't mind Paul's suggestion of using 'Page'. It bridges the gap between mobile and web quite nicely, but doesn't quite feel 'native-first'.
14:17:58 <hdv> q?
14:18:02 <hdv> ack meg
14:18:13 <Joe_Humbert> hdv discussing audience comment from pauljadam about removing the word "page" as an alternate
14:18:16 <JJ> q+ to mention View -> Page and Subview -> View
14:18:39 <Joe_Humbert> pauljadam feel he would rather just leave pages as is
14:18:52 <pauljadam> MVC
14:18:55 <JJ> Megan_Pletzer: Mentions that view could be confusing for app developers, because components are named like ImageView, etc.
14:19:38 <hdv> q?
14:19:41 <hdv> ack JJ
14:19:42 <Zakim> JJ, you wanted to mention View -> Page and Subview -> View
14:20:49 <Joe_Humbert> JJ agrees with some of the comments.  Mentioned the need for a broader term covering use cases outside of the web
14:22:18 <Joe_Humbert> JJ talks about alternatives. such as leaving the term "page", but adding other terms like "component" and providing a new definition of "view"
14:22:51 <pauljadam> q+
14:23:17 <Joe_Humbert> JJ and pauljadam discuss the terms begin used by users. Do they say "page" or "screen"?
14:23:37 <JJ> ack pauljadam
14:24:02 <Joe_Humbert> @JJ brings up lack of terms that cover VR/AR
14:24:52 <JJ> q+ to mention page vs screen
14:24:58 <Joe_Humbert> pauljadam suggests what screen means "above the fold" and how page could be applied to AR/VR
14:24:58 <hdv> q?
14:25:03 <hdv> ack JJ
14:25:03 <Zakim> JJ, you wanted to mention page vs screen
14:25:40 <Joe_Humbert> hdv says thank you for the feedback and there were some new comments
14:26:46 <Jon_Gibbins> q+
14:26:51 <Joe_Humbert> JJ suggests that screen would be "above the fold" and the page for mobile would be the whole content above and below the fold
14:28:10 <Joe_Humbert> pauljadam said that a screen could be part of a a larger context
14:28:37 <Joe_Humbert> pauljadam brings up page title vs screen title in context of modal dialog
14:28:54 <JJ> q?
14:29:16 <JJ> q+ Jamie to ask about set of software clause
14:29:18 <Joe_Humbert> @jamie brought up that "screen" title are already possible for mobile apps
14:29:22 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:29:22 <Zakim> Jamie, you wanted to ask about set of software clause
14:29:51 <Joe_Humbert> pauljadam said that it is Navigation title in iOS
14:30:18 <Joe_Humbert> @jamie asked about how the terms will be used by the subgroup
14:30:50 <Joe_Humbert> hdv talks about what WCAG SC would be affected by the new term or changing terms
14:31:04 <JJ> hdv: Mentions that it will be unlikely to update WCAG 2.2 with the new view definitions - but WCAG2ICT and WCAG2Mobile seems possible
14:31:49 <pauljadam> "Page within a set of related Pages"
14:31:51 <Joe_Humbert> @jamie says that the changes would affect both WCAG2ICT and our groups work
14:32:22 <JJ> ack Jon_Gibbins
14:32:30 <Joe_Humbert> @jamie talks about how this will affect "sets of [items]"
14:32:51 <JJ> Jon_Gibbins: My thinking was towards screen, but it's very difficult to find the right terminology in the English language.
14:33:35 <JJ> Jon_Gibbins: Page is a physical limited box, and we have to take that to a digital paradigm where it is not limited
14:33:52 <Joe_Humbert> Jon_Gibbins says definition of screen can be changed to suit the context
14:34:02 <JJ> Jon_Gibbins: In Android, what you are doing is part of an Activity
14:34:13 <Joe_Humbert> Jon_Gibbins mentions that Android uses the term "activity"
14:34:15 <JJ> (In Android, you also have Fragment, for part of view, and View, for a 'view')
14:34:46 <JJ> (in iOS, Activity would be ViewController?)
14:34:55 <RobW> Activity probably works great here, but is very Android specific.
14:35:14 <pauljadam> I don't think end users call anything inside an app an activity and that's not an iOS term
14:35:26 <Joe_Humbert> Jon_Gibbins reset the model. suggests that we are used to the term page. talks about comparing back to the physical word, i.e. "page"
14:35:36 <JJ> Activity / Controller are similar though.
14:35:39 <GleidsonRamos> q+
14:35:53 <JJ> ack GleidsonRamos
14:35:53 <hdv> ack gl
14:36:30 <Joe_Humbert> GleidsonRamos agrees about keeping the term "page". Does not see other terms working in all contexts
14:36:47 <hdv> q?
14:36:49 <JJ> q+ to ask about WCAG2ICT scope
14:36:55 <hdv> ack JJ
14:36:55 <Zakim> JJ, you wanted to ask about WCAG2ICT scope
14:37:01 <pauljadam> in a sigle page app that is just talking about how it's developed but the end users sees it as multiple pages
14:38:23 <Joe_Humbert> JJ new terms would not be used in WCAG 2.x as hdv had mentioned previously. IS WCAG2ICT considering VR/AR.  could use the term page
14:39:57 <Jon_Gibbins> pauljadam: Can you clarify who you mean by end users?
14:40:14 <Joe_Humbert> hdv talks about the subgroup under WCAG 3 so it may not be able to apply to WCAG 2.x, but there are discussions.  Feels the new terms are important to WCAG-EM. Will take the feedback from this group back to the subgroup. Including the feeling on term "page"
14:40:25 <JJ> q+ to mention that WCAG2ICT and WCAG2Mobile could replace "view" with their context, e.g. "screen" in our guidance
14:40:26 <pauljadam> by end users I mean the regular non developer folks using an app
14:40:56 <Jon_Gibbins> End users of the standard (mobile practitioners) or end users of the products and services (general public)?
14:41:20 <pauljadam> like the users you would recruit for a usability test
14:42:08 <pauljadam> people using an SPA don't know it's a single page, they think it's multiple pages
14:42:29 <Joe_Humbert> @jamie discussing types of views and types of screen and the similarities across the screens. How are these terms going to be used in larger grouping contexts. There will be differences for example Mobile app vs Single Page Applications
14:42:38 <Jon_Gibbins> Okay, thanks. I’m not sure end users should necessarily by the audience for the terminology, though. End users don’t talk about authentication, concurrent input mechanisms, actuation… ?
14:43:16 <Joe_Humbert> hdv talks about the complexity of applying terms to Single Page Applications or VR
14:43:47 <Joe_Humbert> pauljadam users of the content view a single page application as multiple pages
14:45:19 <JJ> ack JJ
14:45:19 <Zakim> JJ, you wanted to mention that WCAG2ICT and WCAG2Mobile could replace "view" with their context, e.g. "screen" in our guidance
14:45:22 <Joe_Humbert> pauljadam and hdv talk about how single page applications may or may not use different URLs. pauljadam mentioned mobile apps and kiosks do not use URLs
14:46:48 <Joe_Humbert> JJ thanked hdv for coming and asked how to track comments from today's meeting.  WCAG Github issue or attending WG AG larger meeting or by email
14:47:44 <Joe_Humbert> JJ final thought. If larger group decides to use "view" our group could choose to replace the term. e.g. "page" or "screen"
14:47:47 <pauljadam> Use "Page" everywhere! less confusion!
14:49:04 <Joe_Humbert> JJ could introduce new term that link to the chosen term(s) from the "view" subgroup. Talks about terms and different audiences
14:49:56 <Joe_Humbert> JJ mentions when the AG WG group meets
14:50:10 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:50:10 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.4.7 Focus Visible -- taken up [from JJ]
14:50:42 <Joe_Humbert> @JJ WCAG2Mobile will be presented as Axe Con
14:51:33 <Joe_Humbert> @jamie Talking about the conference presentation.  Discusses overview of what presentation will cover
14:53:21 <Joe_Humbert> @jamie progress of group over the past year, small changes vs larger changes and timeline for publishing this groups guidance. What we have been doing, our published work, how people can comment, and timeline. Aligning to WCAG2ICT vs WCAG
14:54:16 <Joe_Humbert> JJ how can people in this group provide feedback on the proposed Axe Con presentation?
14:55:10 <Joe_Humbert> @jamie talks about small variation vs large variation and how not all SCs from WCAG/WCAG2ICT have been drafted
14:56:03 <Joe_Humbert> @jamie mentions that the presentation is next Thursday.  Wants audience from this group to keep the presenters accurate
14:56:04 <github-bot> github-bot has joined #matf
14:56:27 <Joe_Humbert> JJ mentions other Mobile related presentations happening at Axe C
14:56:34 <Joe_Humbert> at Axe Con
14:57:20 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/51
14:57:22 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:57:22 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 3.2.1 On Focus -- taken up [from JJ]
14:57:43 <Joe_Humbert> JJ showing comments on GitHub issue for our draft of WCAG SC 2.4.7 focus visible.  suggests adding any comments to the github issue
14:58:11 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:58:11 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, JJ
14:58:45 <Joe_Humbert> @JJ also asks to comment on github issues for definition of "user interface component" and SC 3.2.1 On Focus
14:59:02 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:59:02 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value -- taken up [from JJ]
14:59:18 <Joe_Humbert> JJ mentioned adding comments for SC 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value
15:00:10 <pauljadam> I would leave focus visible as is
15:00:10 <pauljadam> Same for On Focus would leave as is
15:00:10 <pauljadam> Mostly my philosophy will be to leave WCAG as written and then apply that to mobile but I would not change the wording of WCAG.
15:00:20 <Joe_Humbert> JJ said new agenda items will be added for next week. Talked about CFC being published and asked for people to +1 or vote on the CFC, but JJ cannot vote because he is chair
15:00:56 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/48
15:01:05 <Joe_Humbert> JJ reminds people to provide further feedback on "views" subgroup to hdv
15:02:22 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
15:02:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, hdv, Tim, pauljadam, GleidsonRamos, Tanya, Megan_Pletzer, julianmka, Jon_Gibbins
15:02:29 <JJ> present+ Tanya
15:02:42 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/02/19-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:17:12 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
15:17:12 <RRSAgent> I see no action items