W3C

RDF-star WG biweekly focused meeting

05 December 2024

Attendees

Present
AndyS, AZ, doerthe, draggett, eBremer, gkellogg, gtw, james, ktk, niklasl, olaf, ora, pchampin, Souri, TallTed, tl, Tpt, william_vw
Regrets
enrico, fsasaki, pfps
Chair
ora
Scribe
AndyS, pchampin, gkellogg

Meeting minutes

ora: chairs propose timeboxing items to 20mins.
… can still be less
… idea is to at least take the temperature
… this is an experiment
… comments?

ora: (no comments)

Consider reintroducing property paths {x,y} syntax dropped in SPARQL 1.1 1

tallted: delay to future work

<pchampin> Tpt: I'm confused also because this is much less an errata than the EXIST feature, on which we are having scope-discussion

AndyS: agree to postpone

<pchampin> + 1 gkellogg

gregg: 1.2 specs marked new features ... so not 1.3

ktk: At this point we say "later" and no "when"

ora: OK?

(agreement by silence)

<gkellogg> +1 to future-work.

AndyS: I will clear-up the GH issue after the meeting

<ora> PROPOSAL: postpone to future work, after main RDF&SPARQL 1.2 are complete

<pchampin> +1

<AZ> +1

<ora> +1

<gkellogg> +1

<TallTed> +1

<Tpt> +1

<tl> +1

<doerthe> +1

<AndyS> +1

<james> +1

<gtw> +1

<ktk> +1

<olaf> +1

<niklasl> +1

<gb> Issue 41 Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO (by afs) [Errata] [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]

pchampin: (wrong link)

<gkellogg> w3c/sparql-update#147

<gb> Issue 147 not found

<gkellogg> w3c/sparql-query#147

<gb> Issue 147 consider reintroducing property paths `{x,y}` syntax dropped in SPARQL 1.1 (by TallTed) [ms:future-work] [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]

RESOLUTION: postpone w3c/sparql-query#147 to future work, after main RDF&SPARQL 1.2 are complete

Drop the requirement to support ill-typed literals with recognized datatype IRIs 2

ora: from outside the group

ktk: last time (3 weeks ago), .... now we have a proposal.

<ktk> w3c/rdf-concepts#60 (comment)

<gb> Issue 60 Drop the requirement to support ill-typed literals with recognized datatype IRIs (by wouterbeek) [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]

james: as a matter of process, why is this being worked on?

pchampin: W3C hat off -- while there was no errata, it seems a low hanging fruit and some existing implementation implement "should" - codify existing practice.

<pchampin> I still need to write down an answer, but I have some data about that

james: I asked for a catalog of implementations

pchampin: I have data

james: I am concerned because of interoperability

ora: table until next time (US "table" meaning)

gkellogg: it relates to "supported datatypes" and hence for the instance and interoperability is not related to "supported datatypes"
… could label tests

tallted: not an erratum until previous work reviewed

pchampin: not all system do the same
… does not impact interoperability because ill-typed literals do not have a meaning
… to ted - datatype are not opaque in the same way as general IRIs

james: could interpret it as an errata in the other direction
… lisp has "undef" clauses in the spec

<pchampin> +1 to provide a way for implementation to be explicit about what they are doing with ill-formed literals

ora: suggest we see what data pchampin has collected

<Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to ask about application-specific datatypes, which might be subtypes (or supertypes) of xsd

TallTed: at the moment, anyone can define a datatype
… works until it encounters a system that drops them

<niklasl> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#dfn-recognized-datatype-iri

AndyS: the text refers to "recognized datatypes" that a system must declare.
… So I don't think that TallTed's concern will happen.
… I don't know systems that declare the datatypes they recognize.

<ora> STRAWPOLL: table (@en-us) until we have seen pchampin's data

w3c/rdf-concepts#60

<gb> Issue 60 Drop the requirement to support ill-typed literals with recognized datatype IRIs (by wouterbeek) [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]

<ora> STRAWPOLL: table (@en-us) w3c/rdf-concepts#60 until we have seen pchampin's data

<gtw> +1

<ora> +1

<gkellogg> +1

<tl> +1

<pchampin> +1

<ktk> +1

<Souri> +1

<james> +1

<niklasl> +1

<TallTed> +1

<AndyS> +1

<doerthe> +1

<william_vw> +1

<AZ> +1

<eBremer> +1

<Tpt> +1

<olaf> +1

RDF graphs with value-space literals 3

AndyS: I think we can't do it. It needs careful thoughts and may have many visible impacts.
… It may be valuable, but needs much more work.

AndyS: don't do it in RDF 1.2 - need significant preparation

gkellogg: similarly - we should postpone.
… wait for when pfps attends

ora: call for support to work on it (silence)

pchampin: pfps away next week as well

gkellogg: we have a pause label

ora: leave as-is

Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO 4

w3c/sparql-update#46

<gb> Pull Request 46 LOAD RDF document clarification (description section and definition section) (by afs)

AndyS: At the time SPARQL Update was written, it worked only on graphs. It's undefined on how to load documents that describe datasets.
… The PR says that LOAD <doc> loads to the dataset, so that quads in TriG would create a SPARQL dataset.
… There are more complicated things, such are re-mapping graph names, but that is not covered in this proposal.
… Some formats it is difficult to know if it encodes a graph or a dataset (e.g., JSON-LD).
… It says you need to generate an error if there are any quads, otherwise, it would go into the target graph.

ora: If I were loading N-Quads, and it specified the graph to load into, would it be an error

AndyS: Yes, that would be an error. If there is no graph name, it would go into the target graph.

pchampin: Could we say that the "INTO" is where default triples go? And other triples go into their specified graph.
… (Verified Credentials use cases).
… Blank node graph names.

AndyS: There are systems that would just use the default data, and they would not be compliant.
… The PR is just addressing the case on when there is no "INTO" clause.
… Use cases with blank nodes are interesting, as are renaming use cases, but that is not the target of this PR.
… Please raise issues for other use cases.
… So, LOAD <...> loads the dataset.

james: How does this align with the graph-store protocol, which is also underspecified. Can they be aligned?
… Having a matrix for the variants would be helpful information, even if incomplete.
… It's hard to understand the affect as is.

AndyS: The graph-store protocol is not quite the same thing, as you need to explicitly name the target.
… There is another protocol for loading quads into a dataset: HTTP.
… You can argue that that is loading the dataset.
… We could add an informational note about this, but right now, I suggest we focus on the LOAD use case.

james: It's odd that that the graph-store protocol is not sufficient. I think it's inability to handle other graphs as an erratum.
… I consider the issues to be the same, they both have to do with quads going into a dataset.

ora: Nothing prevents us from fixing the graph-store protocol from being inline with this. Do you object to fixing this right now?

james: I'd like to know specifically where we're going to understand the expected behavior, as these are interrelated.
… I'd like to see a more transparent description of what should happen.

AndyS: Perhaps james can read the definitional part of Op Load. Please make a separate proposal, but people actually need to work on it.

ora: I suggest we fix LOAD now and consider a matrix approach in the future.

PROPOSAL: Continue with https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41.

<gb> Issue 41 Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO (by afs) [Errata] [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]

<ktk> +1

<niklasl> +1

<gtw> +1

<gkellogg> +1

<pchampin> +1

<ora> +1

<AndyS> +1

<james> +1

<Souri> +1

<Tpt> +1

<william_vw> +1

<tl> +1

<olaf> +1

<AZ> +1

<TallTed> +1

<doerthe> +1

<eBremer> +1

RESOLUTION: Continue with https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41.

<gb> Issue 41 Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO (by afs) [Errata] [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]

james: I will add a matrix to the issue to see if I have understood correctly.

<gb> Issue 130 vocabulary to refer to the individual nodes in a triple term (by rat10) [discuss-f2f]

<gb> Issue 130 vocabulary to refer to the individual nodes in a triple term (by rat10) [discuss-f2f]

<Zakim> tl, you wanted to ask about status label of issue #130 <w3c/rdf-star-wg#130>

Summary of resolutions

  1. postpone w3c/sparql-query#147 to future work, after main RDF&SPARQL 1.2 are complete
  2. Continue with https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41.
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 242 (Fri Dec 20 18:32:17 2024 UTC).

Diagnostics

Succeeded: s/ora;/ora:/

Succeeded: s/.. lisp/... lisp/

Maybe present: gregg

All speakers: AndyS, gkellogg, gregg, james, ktk, ora, pchampin, tallted

Active on IRC: AndyS, AZ, doerthe, draggett, eBremer, gkellogg, gtw, james, ktk, niklasl, olaf, ora, pchampin, Souri, TallTed, tl, Tpt, william_vw