16:35:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:35:14 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/12/05-rdf-star-irc
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16:37:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:38:30 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6a7136b4-d353-4e17-9156-3c0ebda64443/20241205T120000/
16:38:30 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/11/22-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:38:30 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/12/06-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:38:30 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:38:30 <agendabot> agenda+ Consider reintroducing property paths {x,y} syntax dropped in SPARQL 1.1 -> 1 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/147
16:38:30 <agendabot> agenda+ Drop the requirement to support ill-typed literals with recognized datatype IRIs -> 2 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/60
16:38:31 <agendabot> agenda+ RDF graphs with value-space literals -> 3 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/136
16:38:32 <agendabot> agenda+ Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO -> 4 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41
16:38:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Additional "needs discussion" issues -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/6
16:38:38 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:45:36 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
16:47:42 <pchampin> pchampin has changed the topic to: RDF Star WG meeting: 2024-12-05 agenda -- https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6a7136b4-d353-4e17-9156-3c0ebda64443/20241205T120000/
16:47:51 <pchampin> zakim, who is here?
16:47:51 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
16:47:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, TallTed, timbl, pchampin, driib5, gb, m2gbot, ktk, csarven, gtw, agendabot, Tpt, rhiaro
16:53:07 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star WG biweekly focused meeting
16:53:16 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:53:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/05-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:55:33 <AndyS> agenda?
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17:00:03 <TallTed> present+
17:00:15 <james> present+
17:00:40 <ktk> present+
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17:00:58 <pchampin> present+
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17:01:05 <doerthe> present+
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17:01:25 <eBremer> present+
17:01:31 <gtw> present+
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17:01:37 <niklasl> present+
17:01:48 <ora> present+
17:02:05 <gkellogg> present+
17:02:23 <AndyS> present+
17:02:23 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
17:02:31 <AndyS> scribe: AndyS
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17:03:11 <draggett> present+
17:03:23 <ora> chair+
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17:04:20 <Souri> present+
17:04:48 <ktk> regrets+ enrico
17:04:56 <tl> present+
17:05:30 <Tpt> present+
17:05:35 <AndyS> ora: chairs propose timeboxing items to 20mins.
17:05:45 <AZ> present+
17:05:48 <AndyS> ... can still be less
17:06:03 <AndyS> ... idea is to at least take the temperature
17:06:16 <AndyS> ... this is an experiment
17:06:25 <AndyS> ... comments?
17:06:28 <ora> q?
17:06:43 <AndyS> ora: (no comments)
17:06:59 <AndyS> zakim, take up item 1
17:06:59 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Consider reintroducing property paths {x,y} syntax dropped in SPARQL 1.1 -> 1 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/147 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:03 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
17:07:15 <TallTed> q+
17:07:18 <Tpt> q+
17:07:32 <ora> ack TallTed
17:07:47 <ora> ack Tpt
17:07:55 <pchampin> scribe+
17:08:02 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
17:08:11 <AndyS> scribe: AndyS
17:08:31 <AndyS> tallted: delay to future work
17:08:38 <pchampin> Tpt: I'm confused also because this is much less an errata than the EXIST feature, on which we are having scope-discussion
17:08:45 <AndyS> AndyS: agree to postpone
17:09:03 <pchampin> scribe-
17:09:18 <ktk> q+
17:09:19 <pchampin> + 1 gkellogg
17:09:19 <AndyS> gregg: 1.2 specs marked new features ... so not 1.3
17:09:24 <ora> ack ktk
17:09:48 <AndyS> ktk: At this point we say "later" and no "when"
17:09:59 <AndyS> ora: OK?
17:10:17 <AndyS> (agreement by silence)
17:10:19 <pchampin> q+
17:10:39 <gkellogg> +1 to future-work.
17:10:54 <ora> ack pchampin
17:11:24 <AndyS> AndyS: I will clear-up the GH issue after the meeting
17:12:18 <ora> PROPOSAL: postpone to future work, after main RDF&SPARQL 1.2 are complete
17:12:20 <pchampin> +1
17:12:20 <AZ> +1
17:12:21 <ora> +1
17:12:23 <gkellogg> +1
17:12:23 <TallTed> +1
17:12:23 <Tpt> +1
17:12:26 <tl> +1
17:12:27 <doerthe> +1
17:12:29 <AndyS> +1
17:12:30 <james> +1
17:12:31 <gtw> +1
17:12:37 <ktk> +1
17:12:37 <olaf> +1
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17:12:39 <niklasl> +1
17:12:43 <william_vw> present+
17:13:14 <olaf> present+
17:13:30 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41 -> Issue 41 Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO (by afs) [Errata] [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
17:14:16 <AndyS> pchampin: (wrong link)
17:14:17 <gkellogg> w3c/sparql-update#147
17:14:18 <gb> Issue 147 not found
17:14:30 <gkellogg> w3c/sparql-query#147
17:14:31 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/147 -> Issue 147 consider reintroducing property paths `{x,y}` syntax dropped in SPARQL 1.1 (by TallTed) [ms:future-work] [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
17:14:37 <ora> RESOLVED: postpone w3c/sparql-query#147 to future work, after main RDF&SPARQL 1.2 are complete
17:14:58 <AndyS> zakim, next item
17:14:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Drop the requirement to support ill-typed literals with recognized datatype IRIs -> 2 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/60 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:19 <ktk> q+
17:15:42 <ora> ack ktk
17:15:42 <AndyS> ora: from outside the group
17:16:14 <AndyS> ktk: last time (3 weeks ago), .... now we have a proposal.
17:16:15 <james> q+
17:16:45 <ktk> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/60#issuecomment-2491851385
17:16:46 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/60 -> Issue 60 Drop the requirement to support ill-typed literals with recognized datatype IRIs (by wouterbeek) [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
17:17:01 <ora> ack james
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17:17:08 <doerthe> present+
17:17:36 <AndyS> james: as a matter of process, why is this being worked on?
17:17:52 <pchampin> q+
17:18:02 <ora> ack pchampin
17:18:39 <james> q+
17:19:15 <ora> ack james
17:19:17 <AndyS> pchampin: W3C hat off -- while there was no errata, it seems a low hanging fruit and some existing implementation implement "should" - codify existing practice.
17:19:52 <pchampin> I still need to write down an answer, but I have some data about that
17:19:54 <AndyS> james: I asked for a catalog of implementations
17:20:00 <ktk> q+
17:20:19 <ora> ack ktk
17:20:23 <AndyS> pchampin: I have data
17:20:26 <james> q+
17:20:36 <ora> ack james
17:20:56 <AndyS> james: I am concerned because of interoperability
17:21:16 <gkellogg> q+
17:21:23 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:21:28 <AndyS> ora; table until next time (US "table" meaning)
17:21:37 <AndyS> s/ora;/ora:/
17:21:49 <TallTed> q+
17:22:35 <AndyS> gkellogg: it relates to "supported datatypes" and hence for the instance and interoperability is not related to "supported datatypes"
17:22:42 <ora> ack TallTed
17:22:42 <AndyS> ... could label tests
17:23:14 <AndyS> tallted: not an erratum until previous work reviewed
17:23:21 <pchampin> q+
17:23:34 <ora> ack pchampin
17:24:00 <AndyS> pchampin: not all system do the same
17:24:10 <james> q+
17:24:28 <AndyS> ... does not impact interoperability because ill-typed literals do not have a meaning
17:25:08 <AndyS> ... to ted - datatype are not opaque in the same way as general IRIs
17:25:53 <ora> ack james
17:26:20 <AndyS> james: could interpret it as an errata in the other direction
17:27:42 <AndyS> .. lisp has "undef" clauses in the spec
17:28:25 <AndyS> s/.. lisp/... lisp/
17:29:03 <pchampin> +1 to provide a way for implementation to be explicit about what they are doing with ill-formed literals
17:29:17 <olaf> present+
17:29:26 <AndyS> ora: suggest we see what data pchampin has collected
17:29:54 <TallTed> q+ to ask about application-specific datatypes, which might be subtypes (or supertypes) of xsd
17:30:14 <ora> ack TallTed
17:30:14 <Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to ask about application-specific datatypes, which might be subtypes (or supertypes) of xsd
17:30:42 <AndyS> TallTed: at the moment, anyone can define a datatype
17:30:56 <AndyS> ... works until it encounters a system that drops them
17:31:10 <AndyS> q+
17:31:24 <gkellogg> q+
17:31:42 <ora> ack AndyS
17:31:42 <pchampin> scribe+
17:31:51 <gkellogg> q-
17:32:05 <niklasl> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#dfn-recognized-datatype-iri
17:32:05 <pchampin> AndyS: the text refers to "recognized datatypes" that a system must declare.
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17:32:30 <pchampin> ... So I don't think that TallTed's concern will happen.
17:32:43 <pchampin> ... I don't know systems that declare the datatypes they recognize.
17:32:50 <Souri> present+
17:32:59 <pchampin> scribe-
17:33:31 <ora> STRAWPOLL: table (@en-us) until we have seen pchampin's data
17:34:09 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/60
17:34:10 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/60 -> Issue 60 Drop the requirement to support ill-typed literals with recognized datatype IRIs (by wouterbeek) [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
17:34:24 <ora> STRAWPOLL: table (@en-us) https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/60 until we have seen pchampin's data
17:34:33 <gtw> +1
17:34:33 <ora> +1
17:34:35 <gkellogg> +1
17:34:36 <tl> +1
17:34:41 <pchampin> +1
17:34:44 <ktk> +1
17:34:45 <Souri> +1
17:34:46 <james> +1
17:34:49 <niklasl> +1
17:34:51 <TallTed> +1
17:34:53 <AndyS> +1
17:34:54 <doerthe> +1
17:34:55 <william_vw> +1
17:34:59 <AZ> +1
17:34:59 <eBremer> +1
17:35:10 <Tpt> +1
17:35:14 <olaf> +1
17:35:23 <AndyS> zakim, next item
17:35:23 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- RDF graphs with value-space literals -> 3 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/136 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:36:05 <ktk> regrets+ pfps
17:36:23 <AndyS> q+
17:36:37 <gkellogg> q+
17:36:38 <ora> ack AndyS
17:36:39 <pchampin> scribe+
17:37:07 <pchampin> AndyS: I think we can't do it. It needs careful thoughts and may have many visible impacts.
17:37:19 <pchampin> ... It may be valuable, but needs much more work.
17:37:27 <ora> ack gkellogg
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17:37:50 <pchampin> scribe-
17:37:51 <AndyS> AndyS: don't do it in RDF 1.2 - need significant preparation
17:38:24 <AndyS> gkellogg: similarly - we should postpone.
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17:39:02 <AndyS> ... wait for when pfps attends
17:39:31 <AndyS> ora: call for support to work on it (silence)
17:39:36 <pchampin> q+
17:39:44 <james> james has joined #rdf-star
17:39:51 <ora> ack pchampin
17:40:25 <AndyS> pchampin: pfps away next week as well
17:40:28 <gkellogg> q+
17:40:42 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:41:12 <AndyS> gkellogg: we have a pause label
17:41:48 <AndyS> ora: leave as-is
17:41:57 <AndyS> zakim, next item
17:41:57 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO -> 4 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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17:42:20 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/pull/46
17:42:21 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/pull/46 -> Pull Request 46 LOAD RDF document clarification (description section and definition section) (by afs)
17:42:34 <gkellogg> scribe+
17:43:09 <gkellogg> AndyS: At the time SPARQL Update was written, it worked only on graphs. It's undefined on how to load documents that describe datasets.
17:43:39 <gkellogg> ... The PR says that LOAD <doc> loads to the dataset, so that quads in TriG would create a SPARQL dataset.
17:43:54 <pchampin> q+
17:44:02 <gkellogg> ... There are more complicated things, such are re-mapping graph names, but that is not covered in this proposal.
17:44:29 <gkellogg> ... Some formats it is difficult to know if it encodes a graph or a dataset (e.g., JSON-LD).
17:45:03 <gkellogg> ... It says you need to generate an error if there are any quads, otherwise, it would go into the target graph.
17:45:34 <gkellogg> ora: If I were loading N-Quads, and it specified the graph to load into, would it be an error
17:45:41 <ora> ack pchampin
17:45:53 <james> q+
17:45:54 <gkellogg> AndyS: Yes, that would be an error. If there is no graph name, it would go into the target graph.
17:46:21 <gkellogg> pchampin: Could we say that the "INTO" is where default triples go? And other triples go into their specified graph.
17:46:36 <gkellogg> ... (Verified Credentials use cases).
17:46:42 <gkellogg> ... Blank node graph names.
17:47:12 <gkellogg> AndyS: There are systems that would just use the default data, and they would not be compliant.
17:47:13 <ktk> regrets+ fsasaki
17:47:36 <gkellogg> ... The PR is just addressing the case on when there is no "INTO" clause.
17:47:57 <gkellogg> ... Use cases with blank nodes are interesting, as are renaming use cases, but that is not the target of this PR.
17:48:11 <gkellogg> ... Please raise issues for other use cases.
17:48:28 <ora> ack james
17:48:28 <gkellogg> ... So, LOAD <...> loads the dataset.
17:49:10 <gkellogg> james: How does this align with the graph-store protocol, which is also underspecified. Can they be aligned?
17:49:14 <AndyS> q+
17:49:33 <gkellogg> ... Having a matrix for the variants would be helpful information, even if incomplete.
17:49:42 <ora> ack AndyS
17:49:42 <gkellogg> ... It's hard to understand the affect as is.
17:50:02 <gkellogg> AndyS: The graph-store protocol is not quite the same thing, as you need to explicitly name the target.
17:50:15 <james> q+
17:50:16 <gkellogg> ... There is another protocol for loading quads into a dataset: HTTP.
17:50:27 <gkellogg> ... You can argue that that is loading the dataset.
17:50:53 <ora> ack james
17:50:54 <gkellogg> ... We could add an informational note about this, but right now, I suggest we focus on the LOAD use case.
17:51:38 <gkellogg> james: It's odd that that the graph-store protocol is not sufficient. I think it's inability to handle other graphs as an erratum.
17:52:03 <gkellogg> ... I consider the issues to be the same, they both have to do with quads going into a dataset.
17:52:45 <gkellogg> ora: Nothing prevents us from fixing the graph-store protocol from being inline with this. Do you object to fixing this right now?
17:53:08 <gkellogg> james: I'd like to know specifically where we're going to understand the expected behavior, as these are interrelated.
17:53:19 <gkellogg> ... I'd like to see a more transparent description of what should happen.
17:53:56 <gkellogg> AndyS: Perhaps james can read the definitional part of Op Load. Please make a separate proposal, but people actually need to work on it.
17:54:19 <gkellogg> ora: I suggest we fix LOAD now and consider a matrix approach in the future.
17:55:06 <gkellogg> PROPOSAL: Continue with https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41.
17:55:07 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41 -> Issue 41 Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO (by afs) [Errata] [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
17:55:14 <ktk> +1
17:55:15 <niklasl> +1
17:55:15 <gtw> +1
17:55:15 <gkellogg> +1
17:55:16 <pchampin> +1
17:55:16 <ora> +1
17:55:20 <AndyS> +1
17:55:23 <james> +1
17:55:24 <Souri> +1
17:55:29 <Tpt> +1
17:55:38 <william_vw>  +1
17:55:49 <tl> +1
17:55:54 <olaf> +1
17:55:55 <AZ> +1
17:55:56 <TallTed> +1
17:55:59 <doerthe> +1
17:56:00 <eBremer> +1
17:56:07 <ora> RESOLVED: Continue with https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41.
17:56:07 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41 -> Issue 41 Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO (by afs) [Errata] [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
17:57:20 <AndyS> james: I will add a matrix to the issue to see if I have understood correctly.
17:58:04 <tl> q+ to ask about status label of issue #130 <https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/130>
17:58:04 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/130 -> Issue 130 vocabulary to refer to the individual nodes in a triple term (by rat10) [discuss-f2f]
17:58:05 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/130 -> Issue 130 vocabulary to refer to the individual nodes in a triple term (by rat10) [discuss-f2f]
17:58:17 <ora> ack tl
17:58:17 <Zakim> tl, you wanted to ask about status label of issue #130 <https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/130>
17:58:18 <AndyS> agenda?
17:59:11 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:59:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/12/05-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:59:23 <AndyS> zakim, close item 4
17:59:23 <Zakim> agendum 4, Allow dataset formats to be valid in LOAD with no INTO -> 4 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-update/issues/41, closed
17:59:25 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:59:25 <Zakim> 5. Additional "needs discussion" issues -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/6 [from agendabot]
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