Meeting minutes
jay: (gives some chat about Mr. Kaneko, who gave the original story at AC 2024 in Hiroshima)
… (then goes through the slides)
… [slide 1]
… commercialization in space 2020-
… astronauts can enjoy contents at ISS
… but some plan going to the moon
… [slide 2]
… the human sphere continues to the moon
… [slide 3]
… artemis: landing humans on the moon
… [slide 4]
… (video by NASA on Artemis)
… training for the Artemis project
… human beings will go to the moon (again) soon
… very special vehicles are under development
… [slide 5]
… Artemis watching the south pole of the moon
… searching for water
… [slide 6]
… japanese SLIM - the "moon sniper"
… landed Jan. 2024
… [slide 7]
… US and India to the lunar surface
… [slide 8]
… Future assets envisioned
… developed by each company
… [slide 9]
… Lunar communications play a vital role
… the distance between the earth and the moon
… takes 2.6 sec even with the light
… [slide 10]
… Development of the lunar comm infrastructure, late 2020s-
… NASA's LunaNet
… need delay-tolerant network
… what would happen with the Web
… [slide 11]
… Global interest in LunaNet
… (various companies listed)
… [slide 12]
… Industry's plans
… JP companies including KDDI, etc.
… [slide 13]
… JAXA' efforts
… assessmen on Lnar communication and navigation architecture and research on optical @@@
… [slide 14]
… The solar system internet (SSI)
… toward a "common structure"
… [slide 15]
… Analogy with the Internet development
… (picture of Vint Cerf)
… [slide 16]
… Deep space challenges
… have to work other SDOs
… astronomical distance and planetary motion
… thinking about Mars as well
… but it's too far from the earth
… 40-min round trip
… [slide 17]
… another "internet"?
… Earth Internet vs Moon "internet"?
… [slide 18]
… how to handle the 2.6 sec delay?
… connected with the Earth Internet?
… [slide 19]
… New standrds and governance challenges
… universal standards for lunar time and solar system coordinates
… [slide 20]
… Our common future to work toward
… "space"as the next frontier
… [slide 21]
… Another video
… near-earth satellites
… NASA's DSM
… moon network
… 2030, may be assets with Mars
… will take 40 mins
… inter-planet network
… multi-hop connection
… then even earth to neptune
… for the universe also
… (IPNSG logo)
… [slide 22]
… Web on the Moon
… already used 20 mins
… [slide 23]
… (describes the goal and description of this session)
jay: referring to DTN, RRC4838
<garykac> DTN = Delay Tolerant Network
jay: [slide 24]
… RFC 4838 - Delay-Tolerant Networking Architecture
… why needed?
… end-to-end path between the source and the destination
… retransmissions based on timely/stable feedback
… end-to-end loss relatively small
… etc.
… from now on, would like to have discussion with you all
garykac: upgrade all our technology for this purpose?
jay: yes
… the problem is timing
… we can't upgrade everything at once
… so gradually
eemeli: IPv4 solved problems for the Earth
… much more problems for the Moon
… we should be starting with addressing
… including lunar colony, and other colonies
… if we wait before starting, would get even more problems
jay: region codes too
garyk: laser-based communication?
jay: yes
garyk: latency due to remote access
<rwarren2> What are roaming fees going to be on the moon?
garyk: geolocation on the Moon
… video codecs
jay: can't avoid the 2.6 sec delay itself
… each protocol should handle the delay
… possibly timeout would happen
… have to check all the existing protocols
… that would be the first step
garyk: simpler thing would be based on the existing technologies
<garykac> My earlier question was why not use existing remote access protocols to address this communication problem.
<garykac> That would require a single channel of communication between Moon and Earth, with a video feed from Earth.
<garykac> Video codes are already designed to handle dropped frames in the face of long latency.
jay: at least as the first 2-3 years, we have to upgrade the software
… and its protocols
… some system using reasonable upgrade is expected
<satakagi> As technology areas specific to the WWW, CDN and browser edge computing seem interesting.
Bas: something mirrored locally
… need whole new system to avoid collisions
jay: that's true
… maybe we have to think of some reasonable timing
… to handle that kind of collisions
@@2: intermediate cache?
jay: just an idea in mind at the moment
… if we have 2.6 sec delay, communication with each other would be difficult
… to handle that situation, we're now planning some scalable network
… using such a network, we can emulate the situation with the Moon
… at an exhibition in Japan, named Interop
osamu: would provide some testbed for that purpose
… also thinking an email system as well
… recently IETF discusses bundled network
… may be used for the communication with the Moon
… IP network may be still used
… but the network protocol might not be symmetry
… some of the CDN protocol might be able to be reused
jay: next year, based on the discussion, we'd like to try a test network with big delay
david: regarding UUCP comment
… really long delay with long-distance call
… long-distance connection to be handled
… certainly, local cache would work
… NTP also would be useful
… how to synchronize the time between the Earth and he Moon
@@2: there are precedents
jay: any questions from remote participants?
kota: we're working on QUIC
… conjection control
… kind of simulating space situation
… might be able to use QUIC for the connection
… the IP layer would be usable based on that
jay: ok
… QUICK and DTN are good recent progress
anatoly: interesting presentation
… synchronizing with the Moon and the Mars
… probably will be independent
… some work on inter-planetary file systems
… might be of interest
… every piece has unique cache
… synchronize the data set between the Earth and the Moon
… maybe interesting to keep the same contents on the both sides
… the idea like remote desktop
… the most effective way may be sending magnetic tapes
… might happen more realistic way is text-based browser
jay: very much interesting
… IPFS is an interesting topic
… good for inter-space network
… any other questions?
@@2: for file system use case
… there is a team started fetch api
… can send data in a modular manner
<satakagi> I thought it would be interesting to dig deeper into what challenges CDNs have as caching mechanisms for the WWW that are realistically operating now.
<satakagi> speak irc post
jay: no answer at the moment
… some kind of coordination and customerziation needed
… this is not just tech approach but related to human acceptance
<satakagi> Thanks
ntim: user experience with latency
… latency for seconds
… animations will be broken
… any plan about the design?
jay: we have to think of what kind of applications to be customized
… email or ftp
… one possible solution is caching
… but need to ask the Earth and it takes time
ntim: 2.6-sec would make the content different
eemeli: is that reasonable to expect resouces?
… with inter-planetary distance, the situation becomes more and more complicated
… somebody else would get cached data
… possible problem with privacy
blad: may need text-based browser
… do we know about the bandwidth?
jay: don't know...
blad: how many lasers could be used?
@@1: multiple lasers would provide wider connection
jay: btw, has everybody signed up on the attendees list?
(those who have not signed up are encouraged to sign up)
jay: please give email to me
… jay@w3.org
[adjourned]