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14:55:11 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: Web on the Moon
14:55:11 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: Jay Kishigami
14:55:11 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/52
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14:55:12 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
14:55:12 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:55:12 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
14:55:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
14:55:14 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
14:55:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
14:55:14 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
14:55:15 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
14:55:15 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
14:55:15 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
14:55:15 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
14:55:16 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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21:46:25 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
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21:46:43 <niklas> preset
21:46:47 <niklas> present+
21:46:53 <moonira> present+
21:47:09 <eemeli> present+
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21:47:44 <kota> slides anywhere?
21:48:19 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
21:48:49 <kaz> jay: (gives some chat about Mr. Kaneko, who gave the original story at AC 2024 in Hiroshima)
21:48:56 <kaz> ... (then goes through the slides)
21:49:06 <kaz> ... [slide 1]
21:49:22 <kaz> ... commercialization in space 2020-
21:50:07 <kaz> .. astronauts can enjoy contents at ISS
21:50:20 <kaz> ... but some plan going to the moon
21:50:21 <kaz> ... [slide 2]
21:50:41 <kaz> ... the human sphere continues to the moon
21:50:45 <kaz> ... [slide 3]
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21:50:56 <kaz> ... artemis: landing humans on the moon
21:51:05 <kaz> ... [slide 4]
21:51:20 <kaz> ... (video by NASA on Artemis)
21:51:29 <kaz> ... training for the Artemis project
21:51:51 <kaz> ... human beings will go to the moon (again) soon
21:52:19 <kaz> ... very special vehicles are under development
21:52:31 <kaz> .. [slide 5]
21:52:51 <kaz> .. Artemis watching the south pole of the moon
21:53:07 <kaz> ... searching for water
21:53:09 <kaz> ... [slide 6]
21:53:20 <kaz> ... japanese SLIM - the "moon sniper"
21:53:26 <kaz> ... landed Jan. 2024
21:53:31 <kaz> ... [slide 7]
21:53:38 <kaz> ... US and India to the lunar surface
21:53:46 <kaz> ... [slide 8]
21:53:53 <kaz> ... Future assets envisioned
21:54:12 <kaz> ... developed by each company
21:54:18 <kaz> ... [slide 9]
21:54:27 <kaz> ... Lunar communications play a vital role
21:54:39 <kaz> ... the distance between the earth and the moon
21:54:57 <kaz> ... takes 2.6 sec even with the light
21:55:11 <kaz> ... [slide 10]
21:55:28 <kaz> ... Development of the lunar comm infrastructure, late 2020s-
21:55:38 <kaz> ... NASA's LunaNet
21:56:00 <kaz> ... need delay-tolerant network
21:56:13 <kaz> ... what would happen with the Web
21:56:27 <kaz> ... [slide 11]
21:56:33 <kaz> ... Global interest in LunaNet
21:56:45 <kaz> ... (various companies listed)
21:56:49 <kaz> ... [slide 12]
21:56:58 <kaz> ... Industry's plans
21:57:07 <kaz> ... JP companies including KDDI, etc.
21:57:12 <kaz> ... [slide 13]
21:57:21 <kaz> ... JAXA' efforts
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21:57:47 <kaz> ... assessmen on Lnar communication and navigation architecture and research on optical @@@
21:57:52 <kaz> ... [slide 13]
21:57:55 <kaz> s/13/14/
21:58:05 <kaz> ... The solar system internet (SSI)
21:58:15 <kaz> ... toward a "common structure"
21:58:25 <kaz> ... [slide 15]
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21:58:40 <shiestyle> present+
21:58:42 <kaz> ... Analogy with the Internet development
21:58:49 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura
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21:58:59 <kaz> ... (picture of Vint Cerf)
21:59:02 <kaz> ... [slide 16]
21:59:09 <kaz> ... Deep space challenges
21:59:20 <kaz> ... have to work other SDOs
21:59:34 <kaz> ... astronomical distance and planetary motion
21:59:42 <kaz> ... thinking about Mars as well
21:59:49 <kaz> ... but it's too far from the earth
21:59:58 <kaz> ... 40-min round trip
22:00:09 <kaz> ... [slide 17]
22:00:18 <kaz> ... another "internet"?
22:00:34 <kaz> ... Earth Internet vs Moon "internet"?
22:00:45 <kaz> ... [slide 18]
22:01:06 <kaz> ... how to handle the 2.6 sec delay?
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22:01:25 <kaz> ... connected with the Earth Internet?
22:01:29 <kaz> ... [slide 19]
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22:01:44 <kaz> ... New standrds and governance challenges
22:02:04 <kaz> ...universal standards for lunar time and solar system coordinates
22:02:10 <kaz> ... [slide 20]
22:02:21 <kaz> ... Our common future to work toward
22:02:41 <kaz> ... "space"as the next frontier
22:02:50 <kaz> ... [slide 21]
22:02:54 <kaz> ... Another video
22:03:09 <kaz> ... near-earth satellites
22:03:14 <kaz> ... NASA's DSM
22:03:20 <kaz> ... moon network
22:03:32 <kaz> ... 2030, may be assets with Mars
22:03:39 <kaz> .... will take 40 mins
22:03:48 <kaz> ....inter-planet networ
22:03:51 <kaz> s/wor/work/
22:04:00 <kaz> ... multi-hop connection
22:04:08 <kaz> ... then even earth to neptune
22:04:21 <kaz> ... for the universe also
22:04:38 <kaz> ... (IPNSG logo)
22:04:43 <kaz> ... [slide 22]
22:04:50 <kaz> ... Web on the Moon
22:04:59 <kaz> ... already used 20 mins
22:05:03 <naomi> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:05:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-on-the-moon-minutes.html naomi
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22:05:24 <anatoly-scherbakov> present+
22:05:24 <kaz> ... (describes the goal and description of this session)
22:05:33 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues/52 session proposal
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22:06:05 <kaz> jay: referring to DTN, RRC4838
22:06:28 <kaz> i/describe/... [slide 23]/
22:06:33 <garykac> DTN = Delay Tolerant Network
22:06:38 <kaz> ... [slide 24]
22:06:54 <kaz> ... RFC 4838 - Delay-Tolerant Networking Architecture
22:06:55 <garykac> present+
22:07:10 <kaz> ... why needed?
22:07:34 <kaz> ... end-to-end path between the source and the destination
22:08:04 <kaz> ... retransmissions based on timely/stable feedback
22:08:21 <kaz> ... end-to-end loss relatively small
22:08:32 <kaz> ... etc.
22:08:55 <garykac> q+
22:08:55 <kaz> ... from now on, would like to have discussion with you all
22:08:59 <eemeli> q+
22:09:01 <kaz> q?
22:09:03 <naomi> present+ Kiyoto_Ozawa, Daisuke_Kodajima, Lu_Huang, Michiko_Kuriyama, Mike_Wasserman, Satoru_Takagi, Takahiro_Aritaki, Kota_Yatagai, Ana_Sollano_Kim, Akira_Nagaoki, Anatoly_Scherbakov, Atsushi_Tagami, Daihei_Shiohama, Frankie_Wolf, Jayadevi_Natarajan, Osamu_Nakamura, Ryoya_Kawai, Ivan
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22:09:27 <kaz> garykac: upgrade all our technology for this purpose?
22:09:29 <kaz> jay: yes
22:09:33 <kaz> ... the problem is timing
22:09:49 <kaz> ... we can't upgrade everything at once
22:09:53 <kaz> ... so gradually
22:09:55 <kaz> ack g
22:10:07 <naomi> present+ Gary_Kacmarcik, Eemeli_Aro
22:10:38 <kaz> eemeli: IPv4 solved problems for the Earth
22:10:49 <kaz> ... much more problems for the Moon
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22:11:03 <kaz> ... we should be starting with addressing
22:11:07 <naomi> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:11:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-on-the-moon-minutes.html naomi
22:11:14 <kaz> ... including lunar colony, and other colonies
22:11:38 <kaz> ... if we wait before starting, would get even more problems
22:11:48 <ntim> present+
22:12:01 <kaz> jay: region codes too
22:12:08 <kaz> q?
22:12:10 <kaz> ack e
22:12:21 <kaz> @@@: laser-based communication?
22:12:23 <kaz> jay: yes
22:13:12 <kaz> garyk: latency due to remote access
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22:13:20 <rwarren2> What are roaming fees going to be on the moon?
22:13:29 <kaz> ... geolocation on the Moon
22:13:36 <kaz> .... video codecs
22:13:58 <kaz> jay: can't avoid the 2.6 sec delay itself
22:14:10 <kaz> ... each protocol should handle the delay
22:14:24 <kaz> ... possibly timeout would happen
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22:14:32 <kaz> ... have to check all the existing protocols
22:14:38 <kaz> ... that would be the first step
22:14:49 <naomi> s/@@@/garyk/
22:15:19 <kaz> garyk: simpler thing would be based on the existing technologies
22:15:37 <kaz> jay: at least as the first 2-3 years, we have to upgrade the software
22:15:50 <kaz> ... and its protocols
22:16:11 <kaz> ... some system using reasonable upgrade is expected
22:16:11 <satakagi> As technology areas specific to the WWW, CDN and browser edge computing seem interesting.
22:16:24 <kaz> q?
22:16:52 <kaz> @@1: something mirrored locally
22:17:11 <kaz> ... need whole new system to avoid collisions
22:17:15 <naomi> s/@@1/Bas/
22:17:24 <kaz> jay: that's true
22:17:39 <kaz> ... maybe we have to think of some reasonable timing
22:17:54 <ntim> ntim has changed the topic to: Breakout: Web on the Moon - Palos Verdes - 14:45-15:45, Minutes: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-on-the-moon-minutes.html
22:18:02 <kaz> ... to handle that kind of collisions
22:18:19 <garykac> My earlier question was why not use existing remote access protocols to address this communication problem.
22:18:22 <kaz> @@2: intermediate cash?
22:18:22 <garykac> That would require a single channel of communication between Moon and Earth, with a video feed from Earth.
22:18:23 <garykac> Video codes are already designed to handle dropped frames in the face of long latency.
22:18:45 <kaz> @@@ will move that to the original place later
22:19:11 <kaz> jay: just an idea in mind at the moment
22:19:29 <kaz> ... if we have 2.6 sec delay, communication with each other would be difficult
22:19:48 <kaz> ... to handle that situation, we're now planning some scalable network
22:20:07 <kaz> ... using such a network, we can emulate the situation with the Moon
22:20:30 <kaz> ... at an exhibition in Japan, named Interop
22:20:41 <kota> q+
22:20:51 <kaz> osamu: would provide some testbed for that purpose
22:21:15 <kaz> ... also thinking an email system as well
22:21:41 <kaz> ... recently IETF discusses bundled network
22:21:54 <kaz> ... may be used for the communication with the Moon
22:22:10 <kaz> ... IP network may be still used
22:22:40 <kaz> ... but the network protocol might not be symmetry
22:23:04 <kaz> ... some of the CDN protocol might be able to be reused
22:23:33 <kaz> jay: next year, based on the discussion, we'd like to try a test network with big delay
22:23:50 <kaz> david: regarding UUCP comment
22:24:07 <kaz> ... really long delay with long-distance call
22:24:23 <kaz> ... long-distance connection to be handled
22:24:39 <kaz> ... certainly, local cash would work
22:24:56 <kaz> ... NTP also would be useful
22:25:21 <kaz> ... how to synchronize the time between the Earth and he Moon
22:25:45 <kaz> @@2: there is a precedents
22:25:51 <kaz> s/a //
22:25:56 <kaz> s/is/are/
22:26:08 <anatoly-scherbakov> q+
22:26:14 <kaz> jay: any questions from remote participants?
22:26:20 <kaz> q?
22:26:31 <kaz> kota: we're working on QUIC
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22:26:38 <ntim> ack kota
22:26:45 <kaz> ... conjection control
22:26:55 <kaz> ... kind of simulating space situation
22:27:07 <kaz> ... might be able to use QUIC for the connection
22:27:25 <kaz> ... the IP layer would be usable based on that
22:27:30 <kaz> jay: ok
22:27:42 <kaz> ... QUICK and DTN are good recent progress
22:27:59 <kaz> anatoly: interesting presentation
22:28:14 <kaz> ... synchronizing with the Moon and the Mars
22:28:26 <kaz> ... probably will be independent
22:28:28 <naomi> ack ana
22:28:48 <kaz> ... some work on inter-planetary file systems
22:28:54 <kaz> ... might be of interest
22:29:15 <kaz> ... every piece has unique cache
22:29:23 <kaz> s/cash/cache/g
22:29:34 <kaz> ... synchronize the data set between the Earth and the Moon
22:30:15 <kaz> ... maybe interesting to keep the same contents on the both sides
22:30:26 <kaz> ... the idea like remote desktop
22:31:14 <kaz> ... the most effective way may be sending magnetic tapes
22:31:55 <kaz> ... might happen more realistic way is text-based browser
22:32:07 <kaz> jay: very much interesting
22:32:20 <kaz> ... IPFS is an interesting topic
22:32:20 <anatoly-scherbakov> ack anatoly-scherbakov
22:32:37 <kaz> ... good for inter-space network
22:32:48 <kaz> ... any other questions?
22:33:05 <kaz> @@2: for file system use case
22:33:20 <kaz> ... there is a team started fetch api
22:33:35 <kaz> ... can send data in a modular manner
22:33:37 <satakagi> q+
22:33:39 <satakagi> I thought it would be interesting to dig deeper into what challenges CDNs have as caching mechanisms for the WWW that are realistically operating now.
22:33:56 <kaz> q?
22:34:33 <satakagi> speak irc post
22:35:18 <naomi> ack sat
22:35:28 <kaz> jay: no answer at the moment
22:35:45 <ntim> q+
22:35:49 <eemeli> q+
22:36:06 <kaz> ... some kind of coordination and costomerziation needed
22:36:13 <kaz> s/cost/cust/
22:36:37 <kaz> ... this is not just tech approach but related to human acceptance
22:36:54 <kaz> q?
22:36:56 <satakagi> Thanks
22:37:21 <kaz> ntim: user experience with latency
22:37:28 <naomi> ack ntim
22:37:38 <kaz> ... latency for seconds
22:37:47 <kaz> ... animations will be broken
22:38:05 <kaz> ... any plan about the design?
22:38:34 <kaz> jay: we have to think of what kind of applications to be customized
22:38:50 <kaz> ... email or ftp
22:39:06 <kaz> ... one possible solution is caching
22:39:20 <kaz> ... but need to ask the Earth and it takes time
22:39:44 <naomi> q?
22:39:45 <kaz> ntim: 2.6-sec would make the content different
22:40:03 <kaz> eemeli: is that reasonable to expect resouces?
22:40:26 <naomi> ack ee
22:40:44 <kaz> ... with inter-planetary distance, the situation becomes more and more complicated
22:40:59 <kaz> ... somebody else would get cached data
22:41:20 <kaz> ... possible problem with privacy
22:42:06 <kaz> blad: may need text-based browser
22:42:18 <kaz> ... do we know about the bandwidgh?
22:42:28 <kaz> s/widgh/width/
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22:42:40 <kaz> jay: don't know...
22:43:02 <eemeli> q+
22:43:06 <kaz> blad: how many lasers could be used?
22:43:25 <kaz> @@1: multiple lasers would provide wider connection
22:43:53 <kaz> jay: btw, has everybody signed up on the attendees list?
22:44:43 <kaz> (those who have not signed up are encouraged to sign up)
22:44:52 <kaz> jay: please give email to me
22:45:11 <kaz> ... jay@w3.org
22:45:56 <kaz> [adjourned]
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22:46:00 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:46:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/09/25-web-on-the-moon-minutes.html kaz
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