W3C

– DRAFT –
FHIR RDF

23 May 2024

Attendees

Present
David Booth, Detlef Grittner, Erich Bremer, EricP
Regrets
-
Chair
David Booth
Scribe
dbooth

Meeting minutes

DICOM

w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf#141

dbooth: Erich added more options to consider, based on DICOM XML conversion

erich: Extra triples matter with large DICOM data.
… Everything in DICom is a list, even if the multiplicity is only one. It adds another triples.

dbooth: Even though the Turtle lists look more concise to a human, they don't actually reduce the nubmer of triples from having an explicit index like in option 7

erich: But the Turtle lists allow you to use convenient list tooling.

dbooth: Options 8, 9a and 9b. if that dcm:UNK is in the slot for someone's birthdate, then if you used dcm:UNK for both Sally and Bob, you are asserting that they have the same birthdate.

eric: The use of dcm:UNK costrains you to predicates that have a range that includes both the values you want, and another value
… that represents the missing value.
… When you have values that are outside the intuitive range of the predicate, then you have changed the range of predicate.

eric: When the range is either a birthdate or 3 null flavors, then your sparql query needs to account for the null flavors.

dbooth: This looks to me like a viable approach.
… Other thoughts?

erich: I'm fine either way, with bnodes or not.

detlef: I prefer simpler.
… And prefer dcm:UNK, because it's easier to check than "UNK"^^dcm:nullFlavor

eric: If you use the bnode standoff for nulls then you can leverage inference more easily.

eric: What if you have an owl datatype property, and use a bnode as a value. Is that legal?

dbooth: IDK. Need to ask Jim Balhoff

detlef: I think it's not allowed in OWL DL

eric: One axis: IRI vs special literal vs bnode standoff
… Another axis: Whether we have an rdf:value standoff.

dbooth: Need to find out about OWL impact

ACTION: DBooth to ask Jim Balhoff about OWL impact of the different options.

erich: Right now we're constructing using dcm:34567 or dcm:theKeyword . Either would be fine, but one is more human readable.

eric: Religious war: Some people think you should use non-readable URIs, so that label can be updated.

erich: In DICOM the keyword names are unchangeable.
… therefore they can be used in the IRIs.
… and numeric IRI would be owl:sameAs the keyword IRI.

detlef: Out next week. Back in two weeks.

ADJOURNED

rssagent, draft minutes

dbooth: OPTIONS 8, 9a and 9b. if that dcm:UNK is in the slot for someone's birthdate, then if you used dcm:UNK for both Sally and Bob, you are asserting that they have the same birthdate.

eric: The use of dcm:UNK constrains you to predicates that have a range that includes both the values you want, and another value
… that represents the missing value.
… When you have values that are outside the intuitive range of the predicate, then you have changed the range of predicate.

eric: When the range is either a birthdate or 3 null flavors, then your sparql query needs to account for the null flavors.

dbooth: Okay, so for a birthdateOrNull predicate, when the value is null, it is not actually asserting anything about that person's birthdate. Interesting.

dbooth: This looks to me like a viable approach.
… Other thoughts?

erich: I'm fine either way, with bnodes or not.

detlef: I prefer simpler.
… And prefer dcm:UNK, because it's easier to check than "UNK"^^dcm:nullFlavor

eric: If you use the bnode standoff for nulls then you can leverage inference more easily.

eric: What if you have an owl datatype property, and use a bnode as a value. Is that legal?

dbooth: IDK. Need to ask Jim Balhoff

detlef: I think it's not allowed in OWL DL

eric: One axis: IRI vs special literal vs bnode standoff
… Another axis: Whether we have an rdf:value standoff.

dbooth: If you have an rdf:value standoff then you can skip having an explicit null, because you can just omit the rdf:value triple when it is null.

dbooth: Need to find out about OWL impact of either using a bnode in an otherwise list of primitives/literals; or using something like dicom:null in an otherwise list of literals. You wouldn't be able to say that the dicom:null is owl:differentFrom any of the actual dates, because today you might only know that Sally has a birthdateOrNull of dicom:null, but tomorrow you might find an assertion saying that Sally has a birthdateOrNull of 1990-12-31 . .

. .

CORRECTION ADDED LATER by dbooth: No, that's wrong. It isn't about owl:differentFrom. It's about the multiplicity of the birthdateOrNull predicate. It needs to allow more than one value, so that it can both have a dicom:null value and a 1990-12-31 value, even if it isn't allowed to have two different actual date values.

ACTION: DBooth to ask Jim Balhoff about OWL impact of the different options.

erich: Right now we're constructing using dcm:34567 or dcm:theKeyword . Either would be fine, but one is more human readable.

eric: Religious war: Some people think you should use non-readable URIs, so that labels can be updated.

erich: In DICOM the keyword names are unchangeable, as are the numbers.
… therefore they can be used in the IRIs.
… and numeric IRI would be owl:sameAs the keyword IRI.

detlef: Out next week. Back in two weeks.

ADJOURNED

rssagent, draft minutes

Summary of action items

  1. DBooth to ask Jim Balhoff about OWL impact of the different options.
  2. DBooth to ask Jim Balhoff about OWL impact of the different options.
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 221 (Fri Jul 21 14:01:30 2023 UTC).

Diagnostics

Succeeded: s/Options 8, 9a/OPTIONS 8, 9a/

Succeeded: i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/Topic: DICOM

Warning: ‘i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues/141’ interpreted as inserting ‘https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues/141’ before ‘Options 8, 9a and 9b’

Succeeded: i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues/141

Succeeded: i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/dbooth; Erich added more options to consider, based on DICOM XML conversion

Succeeded: i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/erich: Extra triples matter with large DICOM data.

Succeeded: i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/.. Everything in DICom is a list, even if the multiplicity is only one. It adds another triples.

Succeeded: i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/dbooth: Even though the Turtle lists look more concise to a human, they don't actually reduce the nubmer of triples from having an explicit index like in option 7

Succeeded: i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/erich: But the Turtle lists allow you to use convenient list tooling.

Succeeded: s/dbooth; Erich/dbooth: Erich/

No scribenick or scribe found. Guessed: dbooth

Maybe present: dbooth, detlef, eric, erich

All speakers: dbooth, detlef, eric, erich

Active on IRC: dbooth