14:56:37 RRSAgent has joined #hcls 14:56:41 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-hcls-irc 14:56:45 rrsagent, make logs public 14:56:54 Meeting: FHIR RDF 14:56:57 Chair: David Booth 15:24:10 dbooth has joined #hcls 15:24:26 dbooth: Options 8, 9a and 9b. if that dcm:UNK is in the slot for someone's birthdate, then if you used dcm:UNK for both Sally and Bob, you are asserting that they have the same birthdate. 15:27:35 eric: The use of dcm:UNK costrains you to predicates that have a range that includes both the values you want, and another value 15:28:02 ... that represents the missing value. 15:29:33 ... When you have values that are outside the intuitive range of the predicate, then you have changed the range of predicate. 15:31:15 eric: When the range is either a birthdate or 3 null flavors, then your sparql query needs to account for the null flavors. 15:38:03 dbooth: This looks to me like a viable approach. 15:38:09 ... Other thoughts? 15:38:24 erich: I'm fine either way, with bnodes or not. 15:38:31 detlef: I prefer simpler. 15:41:05 ... And prefer dcm:UNK, because it's easier to check than "UNK"^^dcm:nullFlavor 15:48:34 eric: If you use the bnode standoff for nulls then you can leverage inference more easily. 15:50:52 eric: What if you have an owl datatype property, and use a bnode as a value. Is that legal? 15:51:02 dbooth: IDK. Need to ask Jim Balhoff 15:51:24 detlef: I think it's not allowed in OWL DL 15:54:29 eric: One axis: IRI vs special literal vs bnode standoff 15:54:42 ... Another axis: Whether we have an rdf:value standoff. 15:56:34 dbooth: Need to find out about OWL impact 15:57:23 ACTION: DBooth to ask Jim Balhoff about OWL impact of the different options. 15:59:22 erich: Right now we're constructing using dcm:34567 or dcm:theKeyword . Either would be fine, but one is more human readable. 16:00:49 eric: Religious war: Some people think you should use non-readable URIs, so that label can be updated. 16:01:44 erich: In DICOM the keyword names are unchangeable. 16:02:43 .. therefore they can be used in the IRIs. 16:03:56 ... and numeric IRI would be owl:sameAs the keyword IRI. 16:04:14 Present: David Booth, Detlef Grittner, Erich Bremer, EricP 16:05:41 detlef: Out next week. Back in two weeks. 16:07:46 ADJOURNED 16:11:57 rssagent, draft minutes 16:47:35 dbooth has joined #hcls 17:25:30 dbooth has joined #hcls 17:25:46 rrsagent, make logs public 17:56:05 dbooth: Options 8, 9a and 9b. if that dcm:UNK is in the slot for someone's birthdate, then if you used dcm:UNK for both Sally and Bob, you are asserting that they have the same birthdate. 17:56:05 eric: The use of dcm:UNK constrains you to predicates that have a range that includes both the values you want, and another value 17:56:05 ... that represents the missing value. 17:56:05 ... When you have values that are outside the intuitive range of the predicate, then you have changed the range of predicate. 17:56:16 eric: When the range is either a birthdate or 3 null flavors, then your sparql query needs to account for the null flavors. 17:56:16 dbooth: Okay, so for a birthdateOrNull predicate, when the value is null, it is not actually asserting anything about that person's birthdate. Interesting. 17:56:16 dbooth: This looks to me like a viable approach. 17:56:27 ... Other thoughts? 17:56:27 erich: I'm fine either way, with bnodes or not. 17:56:27 detlef: I prefer simpler. 17:56:27 ... And prefer dcm:UNK, because it's easier to check than "UNK"^^dcm:nullFlavor 17:56:28 eric: If you use the bnode standoff for nulls then you can leverage inference more easily. 17:56:39 eric: What if you have an owl datatype property, and use a bnode as a value. Is that legal? 17:56:39 dbooth: IDK. Need to ask Jim Balhoff 17:56:39 detlef: I think it's not allowed in OWL DL 17:56:39 eric: One axis: IRI vs special literal vs bnode standoff 17:56:40 ... Another axis: Whether we have an rdf:value standoff. 17:56:49 dbooth: If you have an rdf:value standoff then you can skip having an explicit null, because you can just omit the rdf:value triple when it is null. 17:57:38 dbooth: Need to find out about OWL impact of either using a bnode in an otherwise list of primitives/literals; or using something like dicom:null in an otherwise list of literals. You wouldn't be able to say that the dicom:null is owl:differentFrom any of the actual dates, because today you might only know that Sally has a birthdateOrNull of dicom:null, but tomorrow you might find an assertion saying that Sally has a birthdateOrNull of 1990-12-31 . . 17:57:38 . . 17:57:48 CORRECTION ADDED LATER by dbooth: No, that's wrong. It isn't about owl:differentFrom. It's about the multiplicity of the birthdateOrNull predicate. It needs to allow more than one value, so that it can both have a dicom:null value and a 1990-12-31 value, even if it isn't allowed to have two different actual date values. 17:58:06 ACTION: DBooth to ask Jim Balhoff about OWL impact of the different options. 17:58:13 erich: Right now we're constructing using dcm:34567 or dcm:theKeyword . Either would be fine, but one is more human readable. 17:58:14 eric: Religious war: Some people think you should use non-readable URIs, so that labels can be updated. 17:58:23 erich: In DICOM the keyword names are unchangeable, as are the numbers. 17:58:23 .. therefore they can be used in the IRIs. 17:58:23 ... and numeric IRI would be owl:sameAs the keyword IRI. 17:58:31 Present: David Booth, Detlef Grittner, Erich Bremer, EricP 17:58:31 detlef: Out next week. Back in two weeks. 17:58:31 ADJOURNED 17:58:31 rssagent, draft minutes 17:59:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:59:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 18:01:21 s/Options 8, 9a/OPTIONS 8, 9a/ 18:04:29 i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/Topic: DICOM 18:04:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:04:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 18:05:38 i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues/141 18:05:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:05:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 18:06:14 i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/dbooth; Erich added more options to consider, based on DICOM XML conversion 18:06:35 i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/erich: Extra triples matter with large DICOM data. 18:07:19 i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/.. Everything in DICom is a list, even if the multiplicity is only one. It adds another triples. 18:07:41 i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/dbooth: Even though the Turtle lists look more concise to a human, they don't actually reduce the nubmer of triples from having an explicit index like in option 7 18:08:02 i/Options 8, 9a and 9b/erich: But the Turtle lists allow you to use convenient list tooling. 18:08:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:08:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 18:09:53 s/dbooth; Erich/dbooth: Erich/ 18:09:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:09:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-hcls-minutes.html dbooth