Meeting minutes
<JJ> show [the] agenda
<JJ> show agenda
<Mick> +present
JJ: there will be a meeting next week, but in two weeks we'll not have one, because I will be on holiday
<quintinb> I won't be able to make next week unfortunately
<JJ> IRC Cheatsheet: https://
1.4.10
JJ: we discussed last week we would convert px, but there's still a question around how to set the viewport of an app to specific dimensions
JJ: Joe_Humbert asked does mobile support up to 400%? could you elaborate?
Joe_Humbert: the original iPhone technically doesn't meet the reqs, it exceeds the dimensions that this specifies
Joe_Humbert: so I'm not sure if this could be tested
Joe_Humbert: if we're testing to the size WCAG requires I don't think it'd be possible
JJ: Mick says not sure if this is supported on native
JJ: Carolina says don't think this applies to native
[JJ reviews linked German testing standard]
<Double_a> this feels like something taken from the Web guidelines. Should the guidelines also include changing the layout of the application if the viewport reduces in size so much that the layout cannot be supported by the viewport
JJ: any more thoughts on 1.4.10?
Carolina: do we need to test on iPhone 13 mini?
JJ: would say it's interpretation…
Double_a: this is not addressing the way mobile apps are structured
Double_a: we're running an experiment where the grid layout is turned into a list… when font is manipulated to the maximum
Double_a: should we do something like that, where if the grid layout cannot be supported and becomes a list layout, should this be part of 'nice to have' guidance?
JJ: I've done this myself in an app…that has two columns with regular font size but with larger font size it becomes a list
Joe_Humbert: requiring specific devices is going to be extremely difficult… even saying 'test on smallest device you have'… most people I worked with who are testing don't have multiple devices to test on
<quintinb> I don't think we should get specific to phone models - that sounds like a slippy slope
RacheleD: I don't know much about native mobile development… but this SC is concerned with two dimensional scrolling, is that something native apps even do? or is it always constrained to available space?
JJ: mostly vertical or truncated on apps, but have seen it in webviews
julianmka: one of the biggest issues I run into with zoom and apps comes from developers not using scrolllable containers
julianmka: so at large sizes you end up losing a lot of content and functionality
julianmka: so content being cut off at the edge of the container etc
julianmka: and this is not just appearance of scrollbars, it's also that content isn't scrollable at all
JJ: yes very common issue
quintinb: I was thinking… maybe we should consider apps like Netflix that have scrolling in two direction but it is not necessarily two-dimensional in the sense of, like, maps… does this present the same issue?
quintinb: it is one dimension at the time
<Joe_Humbert> many apps have horizontal "carousels" or pager views
JJ: as far as I know for the SC this is allowed, does someone else want to add to this specific scrolling question?
RacheleD: yes I think carousels falls under the exception, because it is not scrolling in two directions
<julianmka> +1 clarity on scrolling *at the same time*
Joe_Humbert: question re web views… basically the only control a developer has over the webview, is if they allow it to scroll? they don't have control over the content
Joe_Humbert: if you have a table in a web view, they can't control how it flows as it is inside of the webview
Joe_Humbert: I liked your suggestion re high level requiring content should reflow when you enlarge things
<julianmka> Devs can use media queries and such to have web view content adapt to the container at least
<Joe_Humbert> the mobile app developers can use media queries julianmka? or is it the web developers need to do that
Mick: I'm still not sure how to test this, it seems to me like a very web specific criterion… I haven't come across apps that have a zoom button built in
<julianmka> Joe_Humbert It would be on whoever owns/maintains the web content being displayed in a web view
<Joe_Humbert> thankx julianmka
<julianmka> Learned something new today, thanks JJ :)
julianmka: thinking what we could do in terms of recommendations… maybe encourage web authors to make web content that renders better in web views?
JJ: was a bit similar to what we talked about with 1.4.4…
JJ: there is an interesting general question re web content in web views
1.4.10 Reflow
[JJ moves to relevant row in screenshare]
JJ: Joe is saying might be a no, there are bookmarklets for testing on web
JJ: to 'applicable to mobile native', Joe also added 'no'
quintinb: with this, what we probably can do, we strongly recommend that you respect user text settings or just user settings
<Joe_Humbert> I agree with quintinb that it could be added in the future.
<quintinb> Yeah not in stock Android for now
<quintinb> Oooh what do we think about apps that force a specific font?
julianmka: I tell designers there is no such thing as a canonical view of an app… supporting capabilities is important
<julianmka> I'm still testing but Samsung's OneUI font swapping only applies to apps that use the designated system font.
JJ: I think in the EN 301 549 there is a mention of that software should implement text properties of the software system or something
<quintinb> Is TalkBack on?
<julianmka> Sorry, bad screenshot attempt quintinb
Double_a: font sizes are difficult to manage… we recently did a survey … if the accessibility features to make content bold are turned on, and the content was already bold, it will make it unreadable
Double_a: we observed this with nearsighted users
<julianmka> We can't test every potential combo of dubious font settings, but people should have the decision to use them if they want to.
<Karla> +1
JJ: so would say this SC is not applicable but we could add some best practices
Double_a: I did write a blog post on the font specific stuff, would be happy to share it
<Joe_Humbert> can developers force the use of the font used in the application over the OS font?
<quintinb> yes they can in Android
<quintinb> I was going to ask about this
JJ: yes they can
JJ: as far as I know there is no way for users to override
quintinb: if the user could set their font, should we require that apps respect the user setting?
JJ: would also be interesting to look at the EN standard
<quintinb> I could see this being useful for folks, but also makes life heck for designers
<AlainVagner> the EN has a specific criterion on this
<AlainVagner> 11.7
<AlainVagner> user prefs
JJ: shares 11.7 User Preferences of EN 301 549
<Joe_Humbert> font type possibly serif vs sans serif?
<JJ> Hidde: chapter 11 of EN 301 549 is likely to get expanded
JJ: we'll discuss 1.4.13 and 2.4.1 next time
<quintinb> Thanks JJ and Hidde!
<JJ> rrsagent set logs public
<JJ> rrsagent set logs public