12:57:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:57:08 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-irc
12:57:08 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:57:09 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:57:23 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF Wednesday 8 May, 2024
12:57:23 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:58:22 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow
12:58:33 <JJ> zakim, agenda?
12:58:34 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
12:58:34 <Zakim> 4. 1.3.5 Input Purpose [from JJ]
12:58:34 <Zakim> 5. 1.4.10 Reflow [from JJ]
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12:59:31 <JJ> agenda- 4
12:59:35 <JJ> agenda- 5
12:59:39 <JJ> zakim, agenda?
12:59:39 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
12:59:46 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #matf
12:59:47 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow
12:59:57 <JJ> show [the] agenda
13:00:01 <JJ> show agenda
13:00:16 <RacheleD> present+
13:00:27 <JJ> clear the agenda
13:00:34 <JJ> agenda?
13:00:40 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow
13:00:56 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.12 Text Spacing
13:01:02 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.13 Content on Hover or Focus
13:01:09 <JJ> agenda+ 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks
13:01:49 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:01:56 <Karla> Karla has joined #matf
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13:02:15 <Carolina> present+
13:02:24 <Karla> present+
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13:03:04 <quintinb> present+ quintinb
13:03:24 <Mick> Mick has joined #MATF
13:03:39 <hdv> scribenick: hdv
13:03:43 <Mick> +present
13:03:44 <hdv> present+
13:03:49 <Mick> present+
13:03:52 <julianmka> julianmka has joined #MATF
13:04:35 <julianmka> present+
13:04:50 <hdv> JJ: there will be a meeting next week, but in two weeks we'll not have one, because I will be on holiday
13:05:04 <quintinb> I won't be able to make next week unfortunately
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13:05:29 <JJ> IRC Cheatsheet: https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet
13:05:34 <Devanshu> present+
13:06:20 <JJ> present+
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13:07:12 <hdv> Topic: 1.4.10
13:07:48 <Joe_Humbert> q=
13:07:51 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:07:57 <hdv> JJ: we discussed last week we would convert px, but there's still a question around how to set the viewport of an app to specific dimensions
13:08:39 <hdv> JJ: Joe_Humbert asked does mobile support up to 400%? could you elaborate?
13:08:59 <hdv> Joe_Humbert: the original iPhone technically doesn't meet the reqs, it exceeds the dimensions that this specifies
13:09:04 <hdv> Joe_Humbert: so I'm not sure if this could be tested
13:09:37 <hdv> Joe_Humbert: if we're testing to the size WCAG requires I don't think it'd be possible
13:10:10 <hdv> JJ: Mick says not sure if this is supported on native
13:11:23 <hdv> JJ: Carolina says don't think this applies to native
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13:12:13 <Double_a> present+
13:12:48 <Double_a> Q+
13:12:58 <RacheleD> q+
13:14:02 <hdv> [JJ reviews linked German testing standard]
13:15:17 <Double_a> this feels like something taken from the Web guidelines. Should the guidelines also include changing the layout of the application if the viewport reduces in size so much that the layout cannot be supported by the viewport
13:16:44 <hdv> JJ: any more thoughts on 1.4.10?
13:16:55 <hdv> Carolina: do we need to test on iPhone mini?
13:17:04 <hdv> s/iPhone mini/iPhone 13 mini
13:17:38 <hdv> JJ: would say it's interpretation… 
13:17:58 <JJ> ack Double_a
13:18:13 <hdv> Double_a: this is not addressing the way mobile apps are structured
13:18:30 <hdv> Double_a: we're running an experiment where the grid layout is turned into a list… when font is manipulated to the maximum
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13:18:54 <hdv> Double_a: should we do something like that, where if the grid layout cannot be supported and becomes a list layout, should this be part of 'nice to have' guidance?
13:19:32 <hdv> JJ: I've done this myself in an app…that  has two columns with regular font size but with larger font size it becomes a list
13:20:30 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:21:08 <hdv> Joe_Humbert: requiring specific devices is going to be extremely difficult… even saying 'test on smallest device you have'… most people I worked with who are testing don't have multiple devices to test on
13:21:25 <quintinb> I don't think we should get specific to phone models - that sounds like a slippy slope
13:21:47 <JJ> ack RacheleD
13:22:02 <JJ> q?
13:22:14 <julianmka> q+
13:22:27 <hdv> RacheleD: I don't know much about native mobile development… but this SC is concerned with two dimensional scrolling, is that something native apps even do? or is it always constrained to available space?
13:22:30 <quintinb> q+
13:22:43 <hdv> JJ: mostly vertical or truncated on apps, but  have seen it in webviews
13:22:43 <Double_a> q+
13:22:57 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:23:35 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:23:35 <Double_a> q-
13:23:45 <hdv> julianmka: one of the biggest issues I run into with zoom and apps comes from developers not using scrolllable containers
13:23:54 <hdv> julianmka: so at large sizes you end up losing a lot of content and functionality
13:24:12 <hdv> julianmka: so content being cut off at the edge of the container etc
13:25:05 <hdv> julianmka: and this is not just appearance of scrollbars, it's also that content isn't scrollable at all
13:25:33 <hdv> JJ: yes very common issue
13:25:33 <JJ> q?
13:25:38 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:26:09 <hdv> quintinb: I was thinking… maybe we should consider apps like Netflix that have scrolling in two direction but it is not necessarily two-dimensional in the sense of, like, maps… does this present the same issue?
13:26:20 <hdv> quintinb: it is one dimension at the time
13:26:51 <Joe_Humbert> many apps have horizontal "carousels" or pager views
13:27:00 <hdv> JJ: as far as I know for the SC this is allowed, does someone else want to add to this specific scrolling question?
13:27:21 <hdv> RacheleD: yes I think carousels falls under the exception, because it is not scrolling in two directions
13:27:53 <julianmka> q+
13:28:00 <julianmka> q-
13:28:13 <julianmka> +1 clarity on scrolling *at the same time*
13:28:15 <quintinb> q-
13:28:17 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:28:45 <hdv> Joe_Humbert: question re web views… basically the only control a developer has over the webview, is if they allow it to scroll? they don't have control over the content
13:29:06 <hdv> Joe_Humbert: if you have a table in a web view, they can't control how it flows as it is inside of the webview
13:29:20 <hdv> Joe_Humbert: I liked your suggestion re high level requiring content should reflow when you enlarge things
13:29:22 <julianmka> Devs can use media queries and such to have content adapt to the container at least
13:29:56 <julianmka> s/content/web view content
13:31:05 <Mick> q+
13:31:10 <JJ> ack Mick
13:31:22 <Joe_Humbert> the mobile app developers can use media queries julianmka? or is it the web developers need to do that
13:31:38 <hdv> Mick: I'm still not sure how to test this, it seems to me like a very web specific criterion… I haven't come across apps that have a zoom button built in
13:31:53 <julianmka> Joe_Humbert It would be on whoever owns/maintains the web content being displayed in a web view
13:32:50 <Joe_Humbert> thankx julianmka
13:32:59 <julianmka> Learned something new today, thanks JJ :)
13:33:05 <julianmka> q+
13:33:30 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:34:08 <hdv> julianmka: thinking what we could do in terms of recommendations… maybe encourage web authors to make web content that renders better in web views?
13:34:57 <hdv> JJ: was a bit similar to what we talked about with 1.4.4…
13:35:22 <hdv> JJ: there is an interesting general question re web content in web views
13:36:41 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:36:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- 1.4.10 Reflow -- taken up [from JJ]
13:36:49 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:36:49 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, JJ
13:36:52 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:36:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, JJ
13:37:01 <JJ> open agendum 2
13:37:35 <hdv> [JJ moves to relevant row in screenshare]
13:37:45 <hdv> RRSAgent, draft minutes please
13:37:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html hdv
13:38:09 <hdv> RRSAgent, make minutes public
13:38:09 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', hdv.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:38:40 <hdv> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:39:02 <hdv> JJ: Joe is saying might be a no, there are bookmarklets for testing on web
13:39:41 <hdv> JJ: to 'applicable to mobile native', Joe also added 'no'
13:40:06 <quintinb> q+
13:40:45 <julianmka> q+
13:40:46 <Double_a> q+
13:41:46 <JJ> q?
13:41:50 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:42:20 <hdv> quintinb: with this, what we probably can do, we strongly recommend that you respect user text settings or just user settings
13:42:33 <quintinb> q-
13:42:38 <Joe_Humbert> I agree with quintinb that it could be added in the future.
13:43:00 <quintinb> Yeah not in stock Android for now
13:43:05 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:43:49 <quintinb> Oooh what do we think about apps that force a specific font?
13:43:52 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:43:52 <hdv> julianmka: I tell designers there is no such thing as a canonical view of an app… supporting capabilities is important
13:45:06 <julianmka> I'm still testing but Samsung's OneUI font swapping only applies to apps that use the designated system font.
13:45:47 <hdv> JJ: I think in the EN 301 549 there is a mention of that software should implement text properties of the software system or something
13:45:48 <quintinb> q+
13:46:05 <quintinb> Is TalkBack on?
13:46:06 <JJ> ack Double_a
13:46:48 <julianmka> Sorry, bad screenshot attempt quintinb
13:46:57 <hdv> Double_a: font sizes are difficult to manage… we recently did a survey … if the accessibility features to make content bold are turned on, and the content was already bold, it will make it unreadable
13:47:27 <hdv> Double_a: we observed this with nearsighted users
13:47:50 <julianmka> We can't test every potential combo of dubious font settings, but people should have the decision to use them if they want to.
13:48:30 <Karla> +1
13:49:03 <hdv> JJ: so would say this SC is not applicable but we could add some best practices
13:49:29 <hdv> Double_a: I did write a blog post on the font specific stuff, would be happy to share it
13:49:38 <JJ> q?
13:49:44 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:49:47 <Joe_Humbert> can developers force the use of the font used in the application over the OS font?
13:50:07 <quintinb> yes they can in Android
13:50:15 <quintinb> I was going to ask about this
13:50:16 <quintinb> q-
13:50:23 <hdv> JJ: yes they can
13:50:35 <hdv> JJ: as far as I know there is no way for users to override
13:51:23 <hdv> quintinb: if the user could set their font, should we require that apps respect the user setting?
13:51:59 <AlainVagner> q+
13:52:03 <hdv> JJ: would also be interesting to look at the EN standard
13:52:16 <quintinb> I could see this being useful for folks, but also makes life heck for designers
13:52:18 <AlainVagner> the EN has a specific criterion on this
13:52:19 <AlainVagner> 11.7
13:52:22 <AlainVagner> user prefs
13:52:27 <AlainVagner> q-
13:52:48 <hdv> JJ: shares 11.7  User Preferences of EN 301 549
13:54:05 <Joe_Humbert> font type possibly serif vs sans serif?
13:55:32 <JJ> Hidde: chapter 11 of EN 301 549 is likely to get expanded
13:55:42 <JJ> q?
13:57:10 <hdv> JJ: we'll discuss 1.4.13 and 2.4.1 next time
13:58:06 <quintinb> Thanks JJ and Hidde!
14:08:57 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
14:08:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been JJ, RacheleD, Carol, AA, julianmka, Joe_Humbert, Mick, Devanshu, quintinb, Carolina, Karla, present, hdv, Double_a
14:09:04 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:09:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:10:55 <JJ> rrsagent set logs public
14:11:12 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:11:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:13:59 <JJ> rrsagent set logs public
14:14:04 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:14:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:18:31 <kevin> kevin has joined #matf
14:18:56 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:18:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:21:01 <JJ> Meeting: MATF Wednesday 8 May, 2024
14:21:06 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:21:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:21:47 <JJ> rrsagent, create minutes v1
14:21:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:25:14 <JJ> rrsagent, publish minutes
14:25:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:52:00 <JJ> rrsagent, publish minutes
14:52:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
16:08:45 <JJ> rrsagent, publish minutes
16:08:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ