IRC log of matf on 2024-05-08
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 12:57:04 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #matf
- 12:57:08 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-irc
- 12:57:08 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 12:57:09 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
- 12:57:23 [JJ]
- Zakim, this is MATF Wednesday 8 May, 2024
- 12:57:23 [Zakim]
- got it, JJ
- 12:58:22 [JJ]
- agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow
- 12:58:33 [JJ]
- zakim, agenda?
- 12:58:34 [Zakim]
- I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
- 12:58:34 [Zakim]
- 4. 1.3.5 Input Purpose [from JJ]
- 12:58:34 [Zakim]
- 5. 1.4.10 Reflow [from JJ]
- 12:59:28 [RacheleD]
- RacheleD has joined #MATF
- 12:59:31 [JJ]
- agenda- 4
- 12:59:35 [JJ]
- agenda- 5
- 12:59:39 [JJ]
- zakim, agenda?
- 12:59:39 [Zakim]
- I see nothing remaining on the agenda
- 12:59:46 [Joe_Humbert]
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- 12:59:47 [JJ]
- agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow
- 12:59:57 [JJ]
- show [the] agenda
- 13:00:01 [JJ]
- show agenda
- 13:00:16 [RacheleD]
- present+
- 13:00:27 [JJ]
- clear the agenda
- 13:00:34 [JJ]
- agenda?
- 13:00:40 [JJ]
- agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow
- 13:00:56 [JJ]
- agenda+ 1.4.12 Text Spacing
- 13:01:02 [JJ]
- agenda+ 1.4.13 Content on Hover or Focus
- 13:01:09 [JJ]
- agenda+ 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks
- 13:01:49 [Joe_Humbert]
- present+
- 13:01:56 [Karla]
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- 13:02:07 [Carolina]
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- 13:02:15 [Carolina]
- present+
- 13:02:24 [Karla]
- present+
- 13:02:52 [quintinb]
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- 13:03:04 [quintinb]
- present+ quintinb
- 13:03:24 [Mick]
- Mick has joined #MATF
- 13:03:39 [hdv]
- scribenick: hdv
- 13:03:43 [Mick]
- +present
- 13:03:44 [hdv]
- present+
- 13:03:49 [Mick]
- present+
- 13:03:52 [julianmka]
- julianmka has joined #MATF
- 13:04:35 [julianmka]
- present+
- 13:04:50 [hdv]
- JJ: there will be a meeting next week, but in two weeks we'll not have one, because I will be on holiday
- 13:05:04 [quintinb]
- I won't be able to make next week unfortunately
- 13:05:26 [Devanshu]
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- 13:05:29 [JJ]
- IRC Cheatsheet: https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet
- 13:05:34 [Devanshu]
- present+
- 13:06:20 [JJ]
- present+
- 13:06:31 [AlainVagner]
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- 13:07:12 [hdv]
- Topic: 1.4.10
- 13:07:48 [Joe_Humbert]
- q=
- 13:07:51 [Joe_Humbert]
- q+
- 13:07:57 [hdv]
- JJ: we discussed last week we would convert px, but there's still a question around how to set the viewport of an app to specific dimensions
- 13:08:39 [hdv]
- JJ: Joe_Humbert asked does mobile support up to 400%? could you elaborate?
- 13:08:59 [hdv]
- Joe_Humbert: the original iPhone technically doesn't meet the reqs, it exceeds the dimensions that this specifies
- 13:09:04 [hdv]
- Joe_Humbert: so I'm not sure if this could be tested
- 13:09:37 [hdv]
- Joe_Humbert: if we're testing to the size WCAG requires I don't think it'd be possible
- 13:10:10 [hdv]
- JJ: Mick says not sure if this is supported on native
- 13:11:23 [hdv]
- JJ: Carolina says don't think this applies to native
- 13:12:06 [Double_a]
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- 13:12:13 [Double_a]
- present+
- 13:12:48 [Double_a]
- Q+
- 13:12:58 [RacheleD]
- q+
- 13:14:02 [hdv]
- [JJ reviews linked German testing standard]
- 13:15:17 [Double_a]
- this feels like something taken from the Web guidelines. Should the guidelines also include changing the layout of the application if the viewport reduces in size so much that the layout cannot be supported by the viewport
- 13:16:44 [hdv]
- JJ: any more thoughts on 1.4.10?
- 13:16:55 [hdv]
- Carolina: do we need to test on iPhone mini?
- 13:17:04 [hdv]
- s/iPhone mini/iPhone 13 mini
- 13:17:38 [hdv]
- JJ: would say it's interpretation…
- 13:17:58 [JJ]
- ack Double_a
- 13:18:13 [hdv]
- Double_a: this is not addressing the way mobile apps are structured
- 13:18:30 [hdv]
- Double_a: we're running an experiment where the grid layout is turned into a list… when font is manipulated to the maximum
- 13:18:38 [RacheleD]
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- 13:18:54 [hdv]
- Double_a: should we do something like that, where if the grid layout cannot be supported and becomes a list layout, should this be part of 'nice to have' guidance?
- 13:19:32 [hdv]
- JJ: I've done this myself in an app…that has two columns with regular font size but with larger font size it becomes a list
- 13:20:30 [JJ]
- ack Joe_Humbert
- 13:21:08 [hdv]
- Joe_Humbert: requiring specific devices is going to be extremely difficult… even saying 'test on smallest device you have'… most people I worked with who are testing don't have multiple devices to test on
- 13:21:25 [quintinb]
- I don't think we should get specific to phone models - that sounds like a slippy slope
- 13:21:47 [JJ]
- ack RacheleD
- 13:22:02 [JJ]
- q?
- 13:22:14 [julianmka]
- q+
- 13:22:27 [hdv]
- RacheleD: I don't know much about native mobile development… but this SC is concerned with two dimensional scrolling, is that something native apps even do? or is it always constrained to available space?
- 13:22:30 [quintinb]
- q+
- 13:22:43 [hdv]
- JJ: mostly vertical or truncated on apps, but have seen it in webviews
- 13:22:43 [Double_a]
- q+
- 13:22:57 [Joe_Humbert]
- q+
- 13:23:35 [JJ]
- ack julianmka
- 13:23:35 [Double_a]
- q-
- 13:23:45 [hdv]
- julianmka: one of the biggest issues I run into with zoom and apps comes from developers not using scrolllable containers
- 13:23:54 [hdv]
- julianmka: so at large sizes you end up losing a lot of content and functionality
- 13:24:12 [hdv]
- julianmka: so content being cut off at the edge of the container etc
- 13:25:05 [hdv]
- julianmka: and this is not just appearance of scrollbars, it's also that content isn't scrollable at all
- 13:25:33 [hdv]
- JJ: yes very common issue
- 13:25:33 [JJ]
- q?
- 13:25:38 [JJ]
- ack quintinb
- 13:26:09 [hdv]
- quintinb: I was thinking… maybe we should consider apps like Netflix that have scrolling in two direction but it is not necessarily two-dimensional in the sense of, like, maps… does this present the same issue?
- 13:26:20 [hdv]
- quintinb: it is one dimension at the time
- 13:26:51 [Joe_Humbert]
- many apps have horizontal "carousels" or pager views
- 13:27:00 [hdv]
- JJ: as far as I know for the SC this is allowed, does someone else want to add to this specific scrolling question?
- 13:27:21 [hdv]
- RacheleD: yes I think carousels falls under the exception, because it is not scrolling in two directions
- 13:27:53 [julianmka]
- q+
- 13:28:00 [julianmka]
- q-
- 13:28:13 [julianmka]
- +1 clarity on scrolling *at the same time*
- 13:28:15 [quintinb]
- q-
- 13:28:17 [JJ]
- ack Joe_Humbert
- 13:28:45 [hdv]
- Joe_Humbert: question re web views… basically the only control a developer has over the webview, is if they allow it to scroll? they don't have control over the content
- 13:29:06 [hdv]
- Joe_Humbert: if you have a table in a web view, they can't control how it flows as it is inside of the webview
- 13:29:20 [hdv]
- Joe_Humbert: I liked your suggestion re high level requiring content should reflow when you enlarge things
- 13:29:22 [julianmka]
- Devs can use media queries and such to have content adapt to the container at least
- 13:29:56 [julianmka]
- s/content/web view content
- 13:31:05 [Mick]
- q+
- 13:31:10 [JJ]
- ack Mick
- 13:31:22 [Joe_Humbert]
- the mobile app developers can use media queries julianmka? or is it the web developers need to do that
- 13:31:38 [hdv]
- Mick: I'm still not sure how to test this, it seems to me like a very web specific criterion… I haven't come across apps that have a zoom button built in
- 13:31:53 [julianmka]
- Joe_Humbert It would be on whoever owns/maintains the web content being displayed in a web view
- 13:32:50 [Joe_Humbert]
- thankx julianmka
- 13:32:59 [julianmka]
- Learned something new today, thanks JJ :)
- 13:33:05 [julianmka]
- q+
- 13:33:30 [JJ]
- ack julianmka
- 13:34:08 [hdv]
- julianmka: thinking what we could do in terms of recommendations… maybe encourage web authors to make web content that renders better in web views?
- 13:34:57 [hdv]
- JJ: was a bit similar to what we talked about with 1.4.4…
- 13:35:22 [hdv]
- JJ: there is an interesting general question re web content in web views
- 13:36:41 [JJ]
- move to next agendum
- 13:36:41 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- 1.4.10 Reflow -- taken up [from JJ]
- 13:36:49 [JJ]
- move to next agendum
- 13:36:49 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 was just opened, JJ
- 13:36:52 [JJ]
- move to next agendum
- 13:36:52 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 was just opened, JJ
- 13:37:01 [JJ]
- open agendum 2
- 13:37:35 [hdv]
- [JJ moves to relevant row in screenshare]
- 13:37:45 [hdv]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes please
- 13:37:46 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html hdv
- 13:38:09 [hdv]
- RRSAgent, make minutes public
- 13:38:09 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', hdv. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 13:38:40 [hdv]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 13:39:02 [hdv]
- JJ: Joe is saying might be a no, there are bookmarklets for testing on web
- 13:39:41 [hdv]
- JJ: to 'applicable to mobile native', Joe also added 'no'
- 13:40:06 [quintinb]
- q+
- 13:40:45 [julianmka]
- q+
- 13:40:46 [Double_a]
- q+
- 13:41:46 [JJ]
- q?
- 13:41:50 [JJ]
- ack quintinb
- 13:42:20 [hdv]
- quintinb: with this, what we probably can do, we strongly recommend that you respect user text settings or just user settings
- 13:42:33 [quintinb]
- q-
- 13:42:38 [Joe_Humbert]
- I agree with quintinb that it could be added in the future.
- 13:43:00 [quintinb]
- Yeah not in stock Android for now
- 13:43:05 [JJ]
- ack julianmka
- 13:43:49 [quintinb]
- Oooh what do we think about apps that force a specific font?
- 13:43:52 [Joe_Humbert]
- q+
- 13:43:52 [hdv]
- julianmka: I tell designers there is no such thing as a canonical view of an app… supporting capabilities is important
- 13:45:06 [julianmka]
- I'm still testing but Samsung's OneUI font swapping only applies to apps that use the designated system font.
- 13:45:47 [hdv]
- JJ: I think in the EN 301 549 there is a mention of that software should implement text properties of the software system or something
- 13:45:48 [quintinb]
- q+
- 13:46:05 [quintinb]
- Is TalkBack on?
- 13:46:06 [JJ]
- ack Double_a
- 13:46:48 [julianmka]
- Sorry, bad screenshot attempt quintinb
- 13:46:57 [hdv]
- Double_a: font sizes are difficult to manage… we recently did a survey … if the accessibility features to make content bold are turned on, and the content was already bold, it will make it unreadable
- 13:47:27 [hdv]
- Double_a: we observed this with nearsighted users
- 13:47:50 [julianmka]
- We can't test every potential combo of dubious font settings, but people should have the decision to use them if they want to.
- 13:48:30 [Karla]
- +1
- 13:49:03 [hdv]
- JJ: so would say this SC is not applicable but we could add some best practices
- 13:49:29 [hdv]
- Double_a: I did write a blog post on the font specific stuff, would be happy to share it
- 13:49:38 [JJ]
- q?
- 13:49:44 [JJ]
- ack Joe_Humbert
- 13:49:47 [Joe_Humbert]
- can developers force the use of the font used in the application over the OS font?
- 13:50:07 [quintinb]
- yes they can in Android
- 13:50:15 [quintinb]
- I was going to ask about this
- 13:50:16 [quintinb]
- q-
- 13:50:23 [hdv]
- JJ: yes they can
- 13:50:35 [hdv]
- JJ: as far as I know there is no way for users to override
- 13:51:23 [hdv]
- quintinb: if the user could set their font, should we require that apps respect the user setting?
- 13:51:59 [AlainVagner]
- q+
- 13:52:03 [hdv]
- JJ: would also be interesting to look at the EN standard
- 13:52:16 [quintinb]
- I could see this being useful for folks, but also makes life heck for designers
- 13:52:18 [AlainVagner]
- the EN has a specific criterion on this
- 13:52:19 [AlainVagner]
- 11.7
- 13:52:22 [AlainVagner]
- user prefs
- 13:52:27 [AlainVagner]
- q-
- 13:52:48 [hdv]
- JJ: shares 11.7 User Preferences of EN 301 549
- 13:54:05 [Joe_Humbert]
- font type possibly serif vs sans serif?
- 13:55:32 [JJ]
- Hidde: chapter 11 of EN 301 549 is likely to get expanded
- 13:55:42 [JJ]
- q?
- 13:57:10 [hdv]
- JJ: we'll discuss 1.4.13 and 2.4.1 next time
- 13:58:06 [quintinb]
- Thanks JJ and Hidde!
- 14:08:57 [JJ]
- Zakim, list participants
- 14:08:57 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been JJ, RacheleD, Carol, AA, julianmka, Joe_Humbert, Mick, Devanshu, quintinb, Carolina, Karla, present, hdv, Double_a
- 14:09:04 [JJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:09:05 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
- 14:10:55 [JJ]
- rrsagent set logs public
- 14:11:12 [JJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:11:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
- 14:13:59 [JJ]
- rrsagent set logs public
- 14:14:04 [JJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:14:05 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
- 14:18:31 [kevin]
- kevin has joined #matf
- 14:18:56 [JJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:18:57 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
- 14:21:01 [JJ]
- Meeting: MATF Wednesday 8 May, 2024
- 14:21:06 [JJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:21:07 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
- 14:21:47 [JJ]
- rrsagent, create minutes v1
- 14:21:49 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
- 14:25:14 [JJ]
- rrsagent, publish minutes
- 14:25:15 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
- 14:52:00 [JJ]
- rrsagent, publish minutes
- 14:52:01 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ
- 16:08:45 [JJ]
- rrsagent, publish minutes
- 16:08:46 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ