12:57:04 RRSAgent has joined #matf 12:57:08 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-irc 12:57:08 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:57:09 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ 12:57:23 Zakim, this is MATF Wednesday 8 May, 2024 12:57:23 got it, JJ 12:58:22 agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow 12:58:33 zakim, agenda? 12:58:34 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 12:58:34 4. 1.3.5 Input Purpose [from JJ] 12:58:34 5. 1.4.10 Reflow [from JJ] 12:59:28 RacheleD has joined #MATF 12:59:31 agenda- 4 12:59:35 agenda- 5 12:59:39 zakim, agenda? 12:59:39 I see nothing remaining on the agenda 12:59:46 Joe_Humbert has joined #matf 12:59:47 agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow 12:59:57 show [the] agenda 13:00:01 show agenda 13:00:16 present+ 13:00:27 clear the agenda 13:00:34 agenda? 13:00:40 agenda+ 1.4.10 Reflow 13:00:56 agenda+ 1.4.12 Text Spacing 13:01:02 agenda+ 1.4.13 Content on Hover or Focus 13:01:09 agenda+ 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks 13:01:49 present+ 13:01:56 Karla has joined #matf 13:02:07 Carolina has joined #MATF 13:02:15 present+ 13:02:24 present+ 13:02:52 quintinb has joined #MATF 13:03:04 present+ quintinb 13:03:24 Mick has joined #MATF 13:03:39 scribenick: hdv 13:03:43 +present 13:03:44 present+ 13:03:49 present+ 13:03:52 julianmka has joined #MATF 13:04:35 present+ 13:04:50 JJ: there will be a meeting next week, but in two weeks we'll not have one, because I will be on holiday 13:05:04 I won't be able to make next week unfortunately 13:05:26 Devanshu has joined #matf 13:05:29 IRC Cheatsheet: https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet 13:05:34 present+ 13:06:20 present+ 13:06:31 AlainVagner has joined #matf 13:07:12 Topic: 1.4.10 13:07:48 q= 13:07:51 q+ 13:07:57 JJ: we discussed last week we would convert px, but there's still a question around how to set the viewport of an app to specific dimensions 13:08:39 JJ: Joe_Humbert asked does mobile support up to 400%? could you elaborate? 13:08:59 Joe_Humbert: the original iPhone technically doesn't meet the reqs, it exceeds the dimensions that this specifies 13:09:04 Joe_Humbert: so I'm not sure if this could be tested 13:09:37 Joe_Humbert: if we're testing to the size WCAG requires I don't think it'd be possible 13:10:10 JJ: Mick says not sure if this is supported on native 13:11:23 JJ: Carolina says don't think this applies to native 13:12:06 Double_a has joined #matf 13:12:13 present+ 13:12:48 Q+ 13:12:58 q+ 13:14:02 [JJ reviews linked German testing standard] 13:15:17 this feels like something taken from the Web guidelines. Should the guidelines also include changing the layout of the application if the viewport reduces in size so much that the layout cannot be supported by the viewport 13:16:44 JJ: any more thoughts on 1.4.10? 13:16:55 Carolina: do we need to test on iPhone mini? 13:17:04 s/iPhone mini/iPhone 13 mini 13:17:38 JJ: would say it's interpretation…  13:17:58 ack Double_a 13:18:13 Double_a: this is not addressing the way mobile apps are structured 13:18:30 Double_a: we're running an experiment where the grid layout is turned into a list… when font is manipulated to the maximum 13:18:38 RacheleD has joined #MATF 13:18:54 Double_a: should we do something like that, where if the grid layout cannot be supported and becomes a list layout, should this be part of 'nice to have' guidance? 13:19:32 JJ: I've done this myself in an app…that has two columns with regular font size but with larger font size it becomes a list 13:20:30 ack Joe_Humbert 13:21:08 Joe_Humbert: requiring specific devices is going to be extremely difficult… even saying 'test on smallest device you have'… most people I worked with who are testing don't have multiple devices to test on 13:21:25 I don't think we should get specific to phone models - that sounds like a slippy slope 13:21:47 ack RacheleD 13:22:02 q? 13:22:14 q+ 13:22:27 RacheleD: I don't know much about native mobile development… but this SC is concerned with two dimensional scrolling, is that something native apps even do? or is it always constrained to available space? 13:22:30 q+ 13:22:43 JJ: mostly vertical or truncated on apps, but have seen it in webviews 13:22:43 q+ 13:22:57 q+ 13:23:35 ack julianmka 13:23:35 q- 13:23:45 julianmka: one of the biggest issues I run into with zoom and apps comes from developers not using scrolllable containers 13:23:54 julianmka: so at large sizes you end up losing a lot of content and functionality 13:24:12 julianmka: so content being cut off at the edge of the container etc 13:25:05 julianmka: and this is not just appearance of scrollbars, it's also that content isn't scrollable at all 13:25:33 JJ: yes very common issue 13:25:33 q? 13:25:38 ack quintinb 13:26:09 quintinb: I was thinking… maybe we should consider apps like Netflix that have scrolling in two direction but it is not necessarily two-dimensional in the sense of, like, maps… does this present the same issue? 13:26:20 quintinb: it is one dimension at the time 13:26:51 many apps have horizontal "carousels" or pager views 13:27:00 JJ: as far as I know for the SC this is allowed, does someone else want to add to this specific scrolling question? 13:27:21 RacheleD: yes I think carousels falls under the exception, because it is not scrolling in two directions 13:27:53 q+ 13:28:00 q- 13:28:13 +1 clarity on scrolling *at the same time* 13:28:15 q- 13:28:17 ack Joe_Humbert 13:28:45 Joe_Humbert: question re web views… basically the only control a developer has over the webview, is if they allow it to scroll? they don't have control over the content 13:29:06 Joe_Humbert: if you have a table in a web view, they can't control how it flows as it is inside of the webview 13:29:20 Joe_Humbert: I liked your suggestion re high level requiring content should reflow when you enlarge things 13:29:22 Devs can use media queries and such to have content adapt to the container at least 13:29:56 s/content/web view content 13:31:05 q+ 13:31:10 ack Mick 13:31:22 the mobile app developers can use media queries julianmka? or is it the web developers need to do that 13:31:38 Mick: I'm still not sure how to test this, it seems to me like a very web specific criterion… I haven't come across apps that have a zoom button built in 13:31:53 Joe_Humbert It would be on whoever owns/maintains the web content being displayed in a web view 13:32:50 thankx julianmka 13:32:59 Learned something new today, thanks JJ :) 13:33:05 q+ 13:33:30 ack julianmka 13:34:08 julianmka: thinking what we could do in terms of recommendations… maybe encourage web authors to make web content that renders better in web views? 13:34:57 JJ: was a bit similar to what we talked about with 1.4.4… 13:35:22 JJ: there is an interesting general question re web content in web views 13:36:41 move to next agendum 13:36:41 agendum 1 -- 1.4.10 Reflow -- taken up [from JJ] 13:36:49 move to next agendum 13:36:49 agendum 1 was just opened, JJ 13:36:52 move to next agendum 13:36:52 agendum 1 was just opened, JJ 13:37:01 open agendum 2 13:37:35 [JJ moves to relevant row in screenshare] 13:37:45 RRSAgent, draft minutes please 13:37:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html hdv 13:38:09 RRSAgent, make minutes public 13:38:09 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', hdv. Try /msg RRSAgent help 13:38:40 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:39:02 JJ: Joe is saying might be a no, there are bookmarklets for testing on web 13:39:41 JJ: to 'applicable to mobile native', Joe also added 'no' 13:40:06 q+ 13:40:45 q+ 13:40:46 q+ 13:41:46 q? 13:41:50 ack quintinb 13:42:20 quintinb: with this, what we probably can do, we strongly recommend that you respect user text settings or just user settings 13:42:33 q- 13:42:38 I agree with quintinb that it could be added in the future. 13:43:00 Yeah not in stock Android for now 13:43:05 ack julianmka 13:43:49 Oooh what do we think about apps that force a specific font? 13:43:52 q+ 13:43:52 julianmka: I tell designers there is no such thing as a canonical view of an app… supporting capabilities is important 13:45:06 I'm still testing but Samsung's OneUI font swapping only applies to apps that use the designated system font. 13:45:47 JJ: I think in the EN 301 549 there is a mention of that software should implement text properties of the software system or something 13:45:48 q+ 13:46:05 Is TalkBack on? 13:46:06 ack Double_a 13:46:48 Sorry, bad screenshot attempt quintinb 13:46:57 Double_a: font sizes are difficult to manage… we recently did a survey … if the accessibility features to make content bold are turned on, and the content was already bold, it will make it unreadable 13:47:27 Double_a: we observed this with nearsighted users 13:47:50 We can't test every potential combo of dubious font settings, but people should have the decision to use them if they want to. 13:48:30 +1 13:49:03 JJ: so would say this SC is not applicable but we could add some best practices 13:49:29 Double_a: I did write a blog post on the font specific stuff, would be happy to share it 13:49:38 q? 13:49:44 ack Joe_Humbert 13:49:47 can developers force the use of the font used in the application over the OS font? 13:50:07 yes they can in Android 13:50:15 I was going to ask about this 13:50:16 q- 13:50:23 JJ: yes they can 13:50:35 JJ: as far as I know there is no way for users to override 13:51:23 quintinb: if the user could set their font, should we require that apps respect the user setting? 13:51:59 q+ 13:52:03 JJ: would also be interesting to look at the EN standard 13:52:16 I could see this being useful for folks, but also makes life heck for designers 13:52:18 the EN has a specific criterion on this 13:52:19 11.7 13:52:22 user prefs 13:52:27 q- 13:52:48 JJ: shares 11.7 User Preferences of EN 301 549 13:54:05 font type possibly serif vs sans serif? 13:55:32 Hidde: chapter 11 of EN 301 549 is likely to get expanded 13:55:42 q? 13:57:10 JJ: we'll discuss 1.4.13 and 2.4.1 next time 13:58:06 Thanks JJ and Hidde! 14:08:57 Zakim, list participants 14:08:57 As of this point the attendees have been JJ, RacheleD, Carol, AA, julianmka, Joe_Humbert, Mick, Devanshu, quintinb, Carolina, Karla, present, hdv, Double_a 14:09:04 rrsagent, make minutes 14:09:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ 14:10:55 rrsagent set logs public 14:11:12 rrsagent, make minutes 14:11:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ 14:13:59 rrsagent set logs public 14:14:04 rrsagent, make minutes 14:14:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ 14:18:31 kevin has joined #matf 14:18:56 rrsagent, make minutes 14:18:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ 14:21:01 Meeting: MATF Wednesday 8 May, 2024 14:21:06 rrsagent, make minutes 14:21:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ 14:21:47 rrsagent, create minutes v1 14:21:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ 14:25:14 rrsagent, publish minutes 14:25:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ 14:52:00 rrsagent, publish minutes 14:52:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ 16:08:45 rrsagent, publish minutes 16:08:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-matf-minutes.html JJ