Meeting minutes
date: 2024-04-19
everyone: [introductions]
Overview of the current activites
liisamk: Publishing BG is co-chaired by myself, Daihei Shiohama, and Cristina Mussinelli
… we meet monthly
… tryo to bring together business people from publishing worldwide, to discuss publishing issues that may need standardization
… we try to organize so we can meet in two different timezones, so we can bring together NA and EU in one, NA and Asia in the other
wolfgang: The main work of the CG is done in taskforces
… an A11y taskforce that has gone on for years, Anti-counterfeiting TF, and a FXL A11y TF
… we meeting every 2-3 months for a plenary session to get everyone together
… if there is enough energy around a topic, we can form further taskforces
… looking for further people to get engaged
George: The CG does not require W3C membership
… the biggest difference between that and other groups
wendyreid: The WG meets monthly, we focus on maintaining EPUB 3.3, Audiobooks, and Publication Manifest
George: All of the chairs, Ivan, Ralph Swick from W3C, myself, are part of the Steering Committee
… we meet to collaborate and guide the publishing work
… is that a good summary?
George: When we did this last round of negotiations between the IDPF board and W3C, we ended up with an agreement that W3C would continue paying the bills for IDPF in return for the license
… we have been thinking on the IDPF board, in the spirit of the original intention of the merger
… the IDPF board and the steering committee to explore combining the groups
… in order to drive digital publishing world wide
… one of the things we've seen, there's a lot around standards and specifications
… not much around marketing, uptake, or promotion
… that's always been a concern
… what do you all think?
rickj: I'll state the obvious, we want this to continue on into the future, the current setup is untenable
… the more coordination we can achieve between the bodies, the better and I'm in favour of it
George: Are we in agreement on this?
Bill_Kasdorf: I'll state another obvious thing, I'm not seeing as many IDPF board members as I was hoping on this call
George: I was surprised as well, I spoke with Paul
… he sent his regrets, he is retiring and hasn't been tracking what has been going on
… I was hoping for others to come
… Cristina is also on the Steering Committee, I think today is just a conflict
… one of the things we want to do is establish who might be the chairs of this activity
Structure
George: I think co-chairs is essential, having more than one person to share the load
Leslie: You wanted to explore combining the IDPF board and SteerCo
George: I am trying to bring more IDPF people into the Steering committee to bring life and excitement to it
… there's need for more energy
Leslie: The SteerCo?
George: I think it should be a combination, the name doesn't matter
… they don't need to be a member of W3C to participate in this, we have room in W3C process to bring people in
Bill_Kasdorf: Another concern was that it's quite important for W3C to be clearly showing ongoing support for EPUB
… getting the IDPF board involved is part of that demonstration
AvneeshSingh: IDPF had a broad responsibility of maintaining the EPUB ecosystem
… specs, promotion, community, EPUBCheck
… this was the practice of IDPF
… in W3C things focused on standards
… the steerco consists of the technical experts that drive the standards work
… the IDPF board has more experience driving the ecosystem
… combining the two will help both efforts
<Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Avneesh
rickj: It sounds to me from a logistical point of view we're proposing a few things
… IDPF needs to maintain its board
… the current members of the IDPF board who are not W3C members will become invited experts to sit on the SteerCo
… for the longevity of this, and we may do the inverse, the SteerCo members who aren't members of the IDPF board become members of the board
… from a logistical POV
George: I think that sounds right to me
… we probably will have a vacancy on the board
Leslie: Not just any seat
George: He is chairman of the board
rickj: Whoever is chair of the SteerCo is chair of the Board
Leslie: who is that?
rickj: We'd need to figure it out
… are we saying we're making this functionally one body, but two things
Bill_Kasdorf: Does anyone on this call remember enough of the bylaws of the IDPF, how does one become a board member
rickj: We dicussed with counsel, and we can do what we want
George: We can vote to add/replace board members
… it's a vote of the IDPF
Bill_Kasdorf: One clarification, is there a fixed number of board members in the bylaws?
George: I think there are 14 seats
rickj: 14 or 21
liisamk: My question, for the folks on the call not on the IDPF board, would you want that?
… it's a weird legal responsibility that no one is asking for
rickj: If we can set this up logistically, it might make the transition to W3C merger smoother
wendyreid: As someone who would be in this position, what is involved? And who is the membership?
rickj: The membership is the board
George: We have to file paperwork and get D&O insurance
AvneeshSingh: My suggestion would not be to make it mandatory
… anyone who becomes a chair would be added to the board
… my suggestion would be keeping them together as a steering committee who moves the mission forward
… keep steering committee less formal
Bill_Kasdorf: Just answering Wendy's concern, I'm hoping that what we're talking about is IDPF board members joining as individuals not representatives of their employers.
wolfgang: I think the same as Wendy and Bill, I'm open to joining the board, but I would want to know the implications
… an informed decision
… speaking for myself, it's a personal engagement and private commitment
George: I totally agree, it's individuals who are on the IDPF board, it's impossible for people to speak for their companies
… think of the best interests of publishing in general
<wolfgang> +1 to George
George: what's good for publishers, developers, distributors, etc
… the focus on the complete ecosystem is super important
rickj: The example of Paul retiring, and us being in a situation of not having a chair of the board
… we need a mechanism to keep people on the IDPF board to uphold the license with W3C, we need to have people who are active and interested
… the board will cease to exist, and then the license is in trouble
… we need to keep the industry alive
Bill_Kasdorf: We need to keep this alive long term
rickj: It's long-term untenable, but we also need a short-term solution
liisamk: I think that's a great point Rick
… to bring all of us together to figure out how to keep the energy going and the work going
rickj: My desire is, help W3C understand how critical the situation
wendyreid: What does Publishing need from W3C?
ivan: As it happens, Wendy has said what I wanted to say, if I tried to imagine the discussion happening in the AB or Board
… the question is what is the publishing industry expecting W3C to do?
… we are a technology organization
… we've worked through EPUB and be proud of this work
… the activity around the core of publishing is minimal
… what does publishing need from W3C?
… if the answer is nothing, maybe one day when there are fewer publishing people on the AB, publishing could be looked at as an activity not active enough to support
… there's other examples of this happening, health, automotive
… it goes two ways
liisamk: Ivan, I take that to heart, that's what many of us are worried about
… we're at a place where EPUB is stable, but we're not quite done
… constantly this possibility of someone forking what we do to do things different
… we've had retailers come forward with features for reading systems
… to enable them would require a change to EPUB to support
… and gracefully degraded for RSs that didn't support
… the PBG has danced a little bit with the membership thing
… on one hand people don't get invites without being members, but we have brought in guests
… the core membership for publishing has dropped off
… it's expensive and hard to maintain
… I wonder if it's possible to keep that dance going with the PBG
… the business discussions to help feed the WG discussions
AvneeshSingh: You are right that the core WG membership has been declining due to fees
… the BG and CG have more of the industry members
… reinforcing what Ivan said, when we joined in 2017, I had a different impression of what W3C would do for us
… my understanding is that we have to figure out how to sustain the publishing industry through W3C
… how W3C can be leveraged for our purpose
… all the planning, execution will depend on us
… it's up to us to determine how to sustain publishing, within W3C
ivan: Going back to what Liisa said, if there are things that needs to be done in EPUB
… we can do that
… for now, my understanding was, and the feedback we got at the end of the EPUB charter, the industry valued stability more than change for EPUB
… that's why the WG voted to not allow new features in EPUB
… just do basic maintenance
… we can change this at any time with a rechartering
… the problem is the membership
… I cannot judge from the outside what the problems are
… whether it's money, or the industry does not want to engage with the technical work
… and leave it to others
… it's a question of participating in the technical development
… it's a complicated issue
Leslie: Just to respond to Ivan, it's mathematics, we used to have 100 members paying a small amount to IDPF, and fewer people paying much more to W3C
… if it was more affordable, we'd have more people
… it's not that people don't want to engage in the technical conversations
… clearly there's a gap that Liisa is highlighting
… there's potential for broader engagement at a lower price
… maybe TFs or other means
… something more approachable than W3C
George: We have 10 minutes left, I would like to see changes at Publishing@W3C
… I would like to see more participation
… more industries, K-12
… more people on to the steering committee, that can drive that.
… we can get more participation from education
… we could get that if there was a more inviting way to participate
… we still see so many people clueless about what to ask for in content
… it's not about throwing standards out there and see what sticks
… it needs to be promoted
Bill_Kasdorf: Enthusiastically agree with George and Leslie
… in my personal experience, I'm a member of lots of organizations
… I'm often talking with technical people
… the technical people are enthusiastic and involved
… and the accessibility people
… people may think EPUB is a done deal, but there's lots to do
… all kinds of issues that people need to see addressed
… its management that needs to be engaged with
… the cost to join IDPF vs joining W3C
… maybe in some cases it's a problem-focused pitch
<liisamk> W3C membership in the US is 1950-68K EUR depending on the size of your org
Bill_Kasdorf: FXL problem is a big problem for accessibiltiy
wendyreid: What are we doing coming out of this meeting?
liisamk: We should meet in 2 weeks
wendyreid: Yes
<wolfgang> +1 Liisa
rickj: What Wendy said, we need to talk about "now what"
<ivan> meeting in two weeks is fine with me
[discussion of when to meet next]
<rickj> +1
Proposed: Merge the Steering Committee and IDPF Board
<AvneeshSingh> +1
Proposed: Merge the Steering Committee and IDPF Board, logistics to follow
<rickj> +1
+1
<ivan> +1
<Bill_Kasdorf> +1
<wolfgang> +1
<shiestyle_> +1
<George> +1
ACTION: wendyreid to send poll for future meeting dates to whole list
<Leslie> +1