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13:55:03 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
13:55:14 <wendyreid> date: 2024-04-19
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14:00:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
14:00:19 <wendyreid> present+
14:00:27 <wolfgang> present+
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14:00:59 <ivan> present+
14:01:08 <liisamk> present+
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14:01:17 <rickj> present+
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14:01:33 <wendyreid> chair: George
14:01:37 <AvneeshSingh> present+
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14:04:33 <wendyreid> scribe+
14:04:41 <shiestyle_> present+
14:04:58 <wendyreid> everyone: [introductions]
14:06:38 <wendyreid> Topic: Overview of the current activites
14:06:55 <wendyreid> liisamk: Publishing BG is co-chaired by myself, Daihei Shiohama, and Cristina Mussinelli
14:06:59 <wendyreid> ... we meet monthly
14:07:20 <wendyreid> ... tryo to bring together business people from publishing worldwide, to discuss publishing issues that may need standardization
14:07:45 <wendyreid> ... we try to organize so we can meet in two different timezones, so we can bring together NA and EU in one, NA and Asia in the other
14:08:00 <wendyreid> wolfgang: The main work of the CG is done in taskforces
14:08:26 <wendyreid> ... an A11y taskforce that has gone on for years, Anti-counterfeiting TF, and a FXL A11y TF
14:08:40 <wendyreid> ... we meeting every 2-3 months for a plenary session to get everyone together
14:08:50 <wendyreid> ... if there is enough energy around a topic, we can form further taskforces
14:08:56 <wendyreid> ... looking for further people to get engaged
14:09:07 <wendyreid> George: The CG does not require W3C membership
14:09:21 <wendyreid> ... the biggest difference between that and other groups
14:11:04 <wendyreid> wendyreid: The WG meets monthly, we focus on maintaining EPUB 3.3, Audiobooks, and Publication Manifest
14:11:47 <wendyreid> George: All of the chairs, Ivan, Ralph Swick from W3C, myself, are part of the Steering Committee
14:12:01 <wendyreid> ... we meet to collaborate and guide the publishing work
14:12:06 <wendyreid> ... is that a good summary?
14:12:09 <wendyreid> q?
14:12:46 <wendyreid> George: When we did this last round of negotiations between the IDPF board and W3C, we ended up with an agreement that W3C would continue paying the bills for IDPF in return for the license
14:13:20 <wendyreid> ... we have been thinking on the IDPF board, in the spirit of the original intention of the merger
14:13:33 <wendyreid> ... the IDPF board and the steering committee to explore combining the groups
14:13:40 <wendyreid> ... in order to drive digital publishing world wide
14:13:53 <wendyreid> ... one of the things we've seen, there's a lot around standards and specifications
14:14:00 <wendyreid> ... not much around marketing, uptake, or promotion
14:14:06 <wendyreid> ... that's always been a concern
14:14:11 <wendyreid> ... what do you all think?
14:14:51 <wendyreid> rickj: I'll state the obvious, we want this to continue on into the future, the current setup is untenable
14:15:08 <wendyreid> ... the more coordination we can achieve between the bodies, the better and I'm in favour of it
14:15:16 <wendyreid> George: Are we in agreement on this?
14:15:38 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: I'll state another obvious thing, I'm not seeing as many IDPF board members as I was hoping on this call
14:15:48 <wendyreid> George: I was surprised as well, I spoke with Paul
14:16:09 <wendyreid> ... he sent his regrets, he is retiring and hasn't been tracking what has been going on
14:16:20 <wendyreid> ... I was hoping for others to come
14:16:34 <wendyreid> ... Cristina is also on the Steering Committee, I think today is just a conflict
14:16:53 <wendyreid> ... one of the things we want to do is establish who might be the chairs of this activity
14:16:57 <wendyreid> Topic: Structure
14:17:17 <wendyreid> George: I think co-chairs is essential, having more than one person to share the load
14:17:38 <wendyreid> Leslie: You wanted to explore combining the IDPF board and SteerCo
14:17:59 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:18:00 <wendyreid> George: I am trying to bring more IDPF people into the Steering committee to bring life and excitement to it
14:18:06 <wendyreid> ... there's need for more energy
14:18:16 <wendyreid> Leslie: The SteerCo?
14:18:28 <wendyreid> George: I think it should be a combination, the name doesn't matter
14:18:46 <wendyreid> ... they don't need to be a member of W3C to participate in this, we have room in W3C process to bring people in
14:19:30 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: Another concern was that it's quite important for W3C to be clearly showing ongoing support for EPUB
14:19:40 <wendyreid> ... getting the IDPF board involved is part of that demonstration
14:19:53 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:20:03 <rickj> q+
14:20:07 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: IDPF had a broad responsibility of maintaining the EPUB ecosystem
14:20:19 <wendyreid> ... specs, promotion, community, EPUBCheck
14:20:19 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
14:20:29 <wendyreid> ... this was the practice of IDPF
14:20:36 <wendyreid> ... in W3C things focused on standards
14:20:47 <wendyreid> ... the steerco consists of the technical experts that drive the standards work
14:20:59 <wendyreid> ... the IDPF board has more experience driving the ecosystem
14:21:06 <wendyreid> ... combining the two will help both efforts
14:21:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Avneesh
14:21:19 <wendyreid> ack rickj
14:21:38 <wendyreid> rickj: It sounds to me from a logistical point of view we're proposing a few things
14:21:43 <wendyreid> ... IDPF needs to maintain it's board
14:22:02 <wendyreid> ... the current members of the IDPF board who are not W3C members will become invited experts to sit on the SteerCo
14:22:21 <wolfgang> s/it's/its/
14:22:28 <wendyreid> ... for the longevity of this, and we may do the inverse, the SteerCo members who aren't members of the IDPF board become members of the board
14:22:34 <wendyreid> ... from a logistical POV
14:22:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:22:42 <wendyreid> George: I think that sounds right to me
14:23:12 <wendyreid> ... we probably will have a vacancy on the board
14:23:16 <wendyreid> Leslie: Not just any seat
14:23:26 <wendyreid> George: He is chairman of the board
14:23:36 <wendyreid> rickj: Whoever is chair of the SteerCo is chair of the Board
14:23:41 <wendyreid> Leslie: who is that?
14:23:48 <wendyreid> rickj: We'd need to figure it out
14:24:03 <wendyreid> ... are we saying we're making this functionally one body, but two things
14:24:03 <liisamk> q+
14:24:23 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: Does anyone on this call remember enough of the bylaws of the IDPF, how does one become a board member
14:24:26 <wendyreid> ack Bill_Kasdorf
14:24:41 <wendyreid> rickj: We dicussed with counsel, and we can do what we want
14:24:50 <wendyreid> George: We can vote to add/replace board members
14:24:54 <wendyreid> ... it's a vote of the IDPF
14:24:56 <wendyreid> q+
14:25:10 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: One clarification, is there a fixed number of board members in the bylaws?
14:25:20 <wendyreid> George: I think there are 14 seats
14:25:23 <wendyreid> rickj: 14 or 21
14:25:40 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
14:25:53 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:25:56 <wendyreid> liisamk: My question, for the folks on the call not on the IDPF board, would you want that?
14:26:09 <wendyreid> ... it's a weird legal responsibility that no one is asking for
14:26:34 <wendyreid> rickj: If we can set this up logistically, it might make the transition to W3C merger smoother
14:26:37 <ivan> q+
14:26:58 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:27:25 <ivan> q-
14:27:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:27:43 <wolfgang> q+
14:28:13 <wendyreid> wendyreid: As someone who would be in this position, what is involved? And who is the membership?
14:28:13 <wendyreid> rickj: The membership is the board
14:28:27 <wendyreid> George: We have to file paperwork and get D&O insurance
14:28:40 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: My suggestion would not be to make it mandatory
14:28:51 <wendyreid> ... anyone who becomes a chair would be added to the board
14:29:11 <wendyreid> ... my suggestion would be keeping them together as a steering committee who moves the mission forward
14:29:12 <rickj> q+
14:29:27 <wendyreid> ... keep steering committee less formal
14:29:29 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:29:33 <wendyreid> ack Bill_Kasdorf
14:30:23 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: Just answering Wendy's concern, I'm hoping that what we're talking about is IDPF board members joining as individuals not representatives of their employers.
14:30:30 <wendyreid> ack wolfgang
14:30:49 <wendyreid> wolfgang: I think the same as Wendy and Bill, I'm open to joining the board, but I would want to know the implications
14:30:54 <wendyreid> ... an informed decision
14:31:20 <wendyreid> ... speaking for myself, it's a personal engagement and private commitment
14:31:42 <wendyreid> George: I totally agree, it's individuals who are on the IDPF board, it's impossible for people to speak for their companies
14:31:55 <wendyreid> ... think of the best interests of publishing in general
14:31:56 <wolfgang> +1 to George
14:32:07 <wendyreid> ... what's good for publishers, developers, distributors, etc
14:32:22 <wendyreid> ... the focus on the complete ecosystem is super important
14:32:24 <wendyreid> ack rickj
14:32:38 <wendyreid> rickj: The example of Paul retiring, and us being in a situation of not having a chair of the board
14:33:05 <Leslie> Leslie has joined #pbgsc
14:33:11 <wendyreid> ... we need a mechanism to keep people on the IDPF board to uphold the license with W3C, we need to have people who are active and interested
14:33:26 <wendyreid> ... the board will cease to exist, and then the license is in trouble
14:33:30 <liisamk> q+
14:33:34 <wendyreid> ... we need to keep the industry alive
14:33:44 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: We need to keep this alive long term
14:33:57 <wendyreid> rickj: It's long-term untenable, but we also need a short-term solution
14:34:00 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
14:34:08 <wendyreid> liisamk: I think that's a great point Rick
14:34:25 <wendyreid> ... to bring all of us together to figure out how to keep the energy going and the work going
14:34:46 <wendyreid> rickj: My desire is, help W3C understand how critical the situation
14:35:03 <ivan> q+
14:36:43 <liisamk> q+
14:36:59 <wendyreid> wendyreid: What does Publishing need from W3C?
14:37:09 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:37:35 <wendyreid> ivan: As it happens, Wendy has said what I wanted to say, if I tried to imagine the discussion happening in the AB or Board
14:37:47 <wendyreid> ... the question is what is the publishing industry expecting W3C to do?
14:37:52 <wendyreid> ... we are a technology organization
14:38:02 <wendyreid> ... we've worked through EPUB and be proud of this work
14:38:11 <wendyreid> ... the activity around the core of publishing is minimal
14:38:18 <wendyreid> ... what does publishing need from W3C?
14:38:54 <wendyreid> ... if the answer is nothing, maybe one day when there are fewer publishing people on the AB, publishing could be looked at as an activity not active enough to support
14:39:05 <wendyreid> ... there's other examples of this happening, health, automotive
14:39:09 <wendyreid> ... it goes two ways
14:39:22 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
14:39:24 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:39:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
14:39:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
14:39:39 <wendyreid> liisamk: Ivan, I take that to heart, that's what many of us are worried about
14:39:49 <wendyreid> ... we're at a place where EPUB is stable, but we're not quite done
14:40:03 <wendyreid> ... constantly this possibility of someone forking what we do to do things different
14:40:16 <wendyreid> ... we've had retailers come forward with features for reading systems
14:40:22 <ivan> q+
14:40:24 <wendyreid> ... to enable them would require a change to EPUB to support
14:40:36 <wendyreid> ... and gracefully degraded for RSs that didn't support
14:40:47 <wendyreid> ... the PBG has danced a little bit with the membership thing
14:41:05 <wendyreid> ... on one hand people don't get invites without being members, but we have brought in guests
14:41:12 <wendyreid> ... the core membership for publishing has dropped off
14:41:18 <wendyreid> ... it's expensive and hard to maintain
14:41:29 <wendyreid> ... I wonder if it's possible to keep that dance going with the PBG
14:41:41 <wendyreid> ... the business discussions to help feed the WG discussions
14:41:44 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:42:00 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: You are right that the core WG membership has been declining due to fees
14:42:10 <wendyreid> ... the BG and CG have more of the industry members
14:42:32 <wendyreid> ... reinforcing what Ivan said, when we joined in 2017, I had a different impression of what W3C would do for us
14:43:24 <wendyreid> ... my understanding is that we have to figure out how to sustain the publishing industry through W3C
14:43:35 <wendyreid> ... how W3C can be leveraged for our purpose
14:43:43 <wendyreid> ... all the planning, execution will depend on us
14:44:26 <wendyreid> ... it's up to us to determine how to sustain publishing, within W3C
14:44:28 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:44:44 <wendyreid> ivan: Going back to what Liisa said, if there are things that needs to be done in EPUB
14:44:47 <wendyreid> ... we can do that
14:45:10 <wendyreid> ... for now, my understanding was, and the feedback we got at the end of the EPUB charter, the industry valued stability more than change for EPUB
14:45:25 <wendyreid> ... that's why the WG voted to not allow new features in EPUB
14:45:29 <wendyreid> ... just do basic maintenance
14:45:39 <wendyreid> ... we can change this at any time with a rechartering
14:45:45 <wendyreid> ... the problem is the membership
14:45:55 <wendyreid> ... I cannot judge from the outside what the problems are
14:46:15 <wendyreid> ... whether it's money, or the industry does not want to engage with the technical work
14:46:20 <wendyreid> ... and leave it to others
14:46:39 <Leslie> q+
14:46:49 <wendyreid> ... it's a question of participating in the technical development
14:46:57 <wendyreid> ... it's a complicated issue
14:47:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:47:00 <wendyreid> ack Leslie
14:47:48 <wendyreid> Leslie: Just to respond to Ivan, it's mathematics, we used to have 100 members paying a small amount to IDPF, and fewer people paying much more to W3C
14:47:59 <wendyreid> ... if it was more affordable, we'd have more people
14:48:12 <wendyreid> ... it's not that people don't want to engage in the technical conversations
14:48:19 <wendyreid> q+
14:48:31 <wendyreid> ... clearly there's a gap that Liisa is highlighting
14:48:59 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:48:59 <wendyreid> ... there's potential for broader engagement at a lower price
14:49:05 <wendyreid> ... maybe TFs or other means
14:49:55 <wendyreid> ... something more approachable than W3C
14:50:28 <wendyreid> George: We have 10 minutes left, I would like to see changes at Publishing@W3C
14:50:36 <wendyreid> ... I would like to see more participation
14:50:42 <wendyreid> ... more industries, K-12
14:50:57 <wendyreid> ... more people on to the steering committee, that can drive that.
14:51:14 <wendyreid> ... we can get more participation from education
14:51:33 <wendyreid> ... we could get that if there was a more inviting way to participate
14:51:52 <wendyreid> ... we still see so many people clueless about what to ask for in content
14:52:17 <wendyreid> ... it's not about throwing standards out there and see what sticks
14:52:22 <wendyreid> ... it needs to be promoted
14:52:28 <wendyreid> ack Bill_Kasdorf
14:52:39 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: Enthusiastically agree with George and Leslie
14:52:49 <wendyreid> ... in my personal experience, I'm a member of lots of organizations
14:52:50 <rickj> q+
14:52:54 <wendyreid> ... I'm often talking with technical people
14:53:12 <wendyreid> ... the technical people are enthusiastic and invovled
14:53:24 <wendyreid> ... and the accessibility people
14:53:34 <wolfgang> s/invovled/involved/
14:53:37 <wendyreid> ... people may think EPUB is a done deal, but there's lots to do
14:53:47 <wendyreid> ... all kinds of issues that people need to see addressed
14:54:01 <wendyreid> ... its management that needs to be engaged with
14:54:20 <wendyreid> ... the cost to join IDPF vs joining W3C
14:54:37 <wendyreid> ... maybe in some cases it's a problem-focused pitch
14:54:41 <liisamk> W3C membership in the US is 1950-68K EUR depending on the size of your org
14:54:43 <AvneeshSingh> q?
14:55:01 <wendyreid> ... FXL problem is a big problem for accessibiltiy
14:55:04 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:55:53 <wendyreid> wendyreid: What are we doing coming out of this meeting?
14:56:01 <wendyreid> liisamk: We should meet in 2 weeks
14:56:03 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Yes
14:56:11 <wolfgang> +1 Liisa
14:56:15 <wendyreid> rickj: What Wendy said, we need to talk about "now what"
14:56:20 <ivan> meeting in two weeks is fine with me
14:57:14 <wendyreid> [discussion of when to meet next]
14:57:45 <rickj> +1
14:58:06 <wendyreid> Proposed: Merge the Steering Committee and IDPF Board
14:58:20 <AvneeshSingh> +1
14:58:23 <wendyreid> Proposed: Merge the Steering Committee and IDPF Board, logistics to follow
14:58:38 <rickj> +1
14:58:41 <wendyreid> +1
14:59:59 <ivan> +1
15:00:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:00:10 <wolfgang> +1
15:00:16 <shiestyle_> +1
15:00:18 <George> +1
15:00:40 <wendyreid> ACTION: wendyreid to send poll for future meeting dates to whole list
15:01:09 <Leslie> +1
15:01:40 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/19-pbgsc-minutes.html ivan
15:01:49 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
15:01:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Bill_Kasdorf, wendyreid, wolfgang, shiestyl_, ivan, liisamk, rickj, AvneeshSingh, shiestyle_
15:01:49 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/19-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
15:01:55 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:01:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
15:09:57 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
15:09:57 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/04/19-pbgsc-actions.rdf :
15:09:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendyreid to send poll for future meeting dates to whole list [1]
15:09:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/04/19-pbgsc-irc#T15-00-40