Meeting minutes
Setup and Review Agenda
Matt_King: Next week is CSUN, and I don't know if that should or shouldn't affect our schedule
Matt_King: I'm personally fine with meeting next week
Matt_King: (The meeting is scheduled for Tuesday)
jongund: I'm not going to CSUN
CurtBellew_: I'm not going, either
Matt_King: Okay, then for now, I'm going to leave it as-is. We'll plan to meet next week
Matt_King: Tuesday, March 19
Publication status
Matt_King: I think April 1 is a reasonable target. That's three weeks out
Matt_King: We have a few pull requests in the works, and there's nothing pressing that I'm aware of that we should get done sooner
Matt_King: Is anyone aware of anything that should get sooner?
Matt_King: Hearing nothing, we'll set April 1st as our target
Fix to make combobox labels clickable
github: w3c/
Matt_King: This is basically ready to ship
Matt_King: We're waiting on one more review--Siri was going to test it on mobile
Matt_King: Since Siri isn't here, I may send her an e-mail about this
Correct CSS cursor property for tabs
github: w3c/
Matt_King: This person is referencing the CSS specification
jongund: MDN says that the "pointing hand" image indicates a link
jongund: But there's nothing for buttons or forum controls
jongund: I would check with James on this because he's the one who suggested we adopt "cursor"
jugglinmike: The referenced spec is outdated, and it's not clear that the text is normative
Matt_King: It sounds like the consensus of the group is that we don't believe the proposed change is justified by the referenced specification.
Matt_King: Further, that if we were going to make a change (which would need to touch many more parts of the APG), we would need more conclusive and authoritative rationale
jongund: Then again, tabs look more like inline text, similar to links, and that's why using the hand pointer might seem appropriate.
Matt_King: It would be great to get perspective from the CSS working group
jugglinmike: The latest version of the relevant CSS spec addresses this
jugglinmike: https://
jugglinmike: Its description of the value of "pointer" includes the following text: "Authors should use pointer on links and may use on other interactive elements."
Matt_King: Ah, I think that settles it, then
Label requirements for inputs in grids
github: w3c/
Matt_King: My expectation for inputs in a grid or table has always been that the row or column heading serves as a label. If you had another label on it, that could create a pretty verbose screen reader experience
Matt_King: I know that column headers are technically not the accessible name of a cell, though, so I'm curious
Matt_King: Maybe this is actually a spec issue. Or maybe the current specs are right, and there should be labels in APG. In that case, though, the current screen reader behavior may also be wrong
CurtBellew_: In this case, I thought one of the standards applied to labeling included some exceptions for when you are in structures like tables
CurtBellew_: We generally recommend labeling as a best practice, but not a requirement., but not a requirement.
dmontalvo: I would agree with that. It would be very verbose if you had labels in addition to headings. This may be an issue in ARIA
Matt_King: We could move the issue
CoryJoseph: We treat the datagrid component as a data table, so row and header [serve as the label]
Matt_King: In certain situations, it would be onerous to code labels like this. The implementation could get almost out of hand in some situations
Matt_King: WCAG might say something about this. There may even be a WCAG technique
CurtBellew_: It might be "labels and instructions" or maybe one-three-one...
<jongund> https://
Matt_King: If you were reading a table with table-reading commands, and there were labels that matched the column header and/or row header, the experience would be awful
dmontalvo: I support transferring the issue to ARIA
dmontalvo: The closest topic in WCAG I could find is "H79"
<dmontalvo> https://
Matt_King: One place where this might be a gap is in accname calculation
jongund: But does accname take the "label" element into account?
Matt_King: Yes; accname accounts for all possible ways of computing a name
Matt_King: I think what might be a problem here is (at least for inputs) if you bring up a list of inputs, and they're not labeled in a table. That feels like an accname problem
Matt_King: I'm startingto get the feeling that the answer needs to come from a different group, not from APG
Matt_King: And that until then, APG shouldn't make a change
Matt_King: Based on our discussion here today, do we have consensus on that response?
CurtBellew_: I don't see enough evidence. Like I said, we suggest labeling just as a best practice, but not a requirement. We encourage folks to use "aria-labeledby" to reference table headers, but we don't insist
AriellaGilmore: I'd like to hear from ARIA before making the change to APG
CoryJoseph: I also think consulting with ARIA makes sense
Matt_King: The more I think about this, the more nuanced I think the problem is
Matt_King: If anyone wants to attach some CodePens to this issue, that's cool