IRC log of aria-apg on 2024-03-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 18:02:21 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
- 18:02:25 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-aria-apg-irc
- 18:02:29 [jugglinmike]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 18:02:35 [jugglinmike]
- Zakim, start the meeting
- 18:02:35 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 18:02:37 [Zakim]
- Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
- 18:03:10 [jugglinmike]
- present+ jugglinmike
- 18:03:14 [jugglinmike]
- scribe+ jugglinmike
- 18:03:28 [jongund]
- jongund has joined #aria-apg
- 18:04:02 [Matt_King]
- Matt_King has joined #aria-apg
- 18:04:08 [howard-e]
- howard-e has joined #aria-apg
- 18:04:14 [howard-e]
- present+
- 18:04:20 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
- 18:04:34 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Next week is CSUN, and I don't know if that should or shouldn't affect our schedule
- 18:04:44 [CurtBellew_]
- CurtBellew_ has joined #aria-apg
- 18:04:53 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I'm personally fine with meeting next week
- 18:05:02 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: (The meeting is scheduled for Tuesday)
- 18:05:05 [jugglinmike]
- present+ jongund
- 18:05:10 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: I'm not going to CSUN
- 18:05:25 [jugglinmike]
- present+ CurtBellew_
- 18:05:29 [CurtBellew_]
- present +
- 18:05:30 [jugglinmike]
- CurtBellew_: I'm not going, either
- 18:05:49 [jongund]
- present+ jongund
- 18:05:56 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Okay, then for now, I'm going to leave it as-is. We'll plan to meet next week
- 18:06:07 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Tuesday, March 19
- 18:07:07 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Publication status
- 18:07:19 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I think April 1 is a reasonable target. That's three weeks out
- 18:07:37 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We have a few pull requests in the works, and there's nothing pressing that I'm aware of that we should get done sooner
- 18:07:52 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Is anyone aware of anything that should get sooner?
- 18:08:04 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Hearing nothing, we'll set April 1st as our target
- 18:08:12 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Fix to make combobox labels clickable
- 18:08:19 [jugglinmike]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2889
- 18:08:23 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: This is basically ready to ship
- 18:08:44 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We're waiting on one more review--Siri was going to test it on mobile
- 18:09:12 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Since Siri isn't here, I may send her an e-mail about this
- 18:09:20 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Correct CSS cursor property for tabs
- 18:10:44 [jugglinmike]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2951
- 18:10:48 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: This person is referencing the CSS specification
- 18:12:10 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: MDN says that the "pointing hand" image indicates a link
- 18:12:18 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: But there's nothing for buttons or forum controls
- 18:14:35 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: I would check with James on this because he's the one who suggested we adopt "cursor"
- 18:19:45 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: The referenced spec is outdated, and it's not clear that the text is normative
- 18:20:28 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: It sounds like the consensus of the group is that we don't believe the proposed change is justified by the referenced specification.
- 18:21:51 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Further, that if we were going to make a change (which would need to touch many more parts of the APG), we would need more conclusive and authoritative rationale
- 18:23:46 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: Then again, tabs look more like inline text, similar to links, and that's why using the hand pointer might seem appropriate.
- 18:24:05 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: It would be great to get perspective from the CSS working group
- 18:24:54 [dmontalvo]
- present+ Daniel
- 18:26:15 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: The latest version of the relevant CSS spec addresses this
- 18:26:22 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-ui/#cursor
- 18:27:08 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: Its description of the value of "pointer" includes the following text: "Authors should use pointer on links and may use on other interactive elements."
- 18:27:31 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Ah, I think that settles it, then
- 18:27:43 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Label requirements for inputs in grids
- 18:27:50 [jugglinmike]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2955
- 18:28:52 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: My expectation for inputs in a grid or table has always been that the row or column heading serves as a label. If you had another label on it, that could create a pretty verbose screen reader experience
- 18:29:12 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I know that column headers are technically not the accessible name of a cell, though, so I'm curious
- 18:29:50 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Maybe this is actually a spec issue. Or maybe the current specs are right, and there should be labels in APG. In that case, though, the current screen reader behavior may also be wrong
- 18:30:45 [jugglinmike]
- CurtBellew_: In this case, I thought one of the standards applied to labeling included some exceptions for when you are in structures like tables
- 18:30:56 [jugglinmike]
- CurtBellew_: We generally recommend labeling as a best practice
- 18:31:42 [jugglinmike]
- dmontalvo: I would agree with that. It would be very verbose if you had labels in addition to headings. This may be an issue in ARIA
- 18:31:58 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We could move the issue
- 18:32:51 [jugglinmike]
- CoryJoseph: We treat the datagrid component as a data table, so row and header [serve as the label]
- 18:33:41 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: In certain situations, it would be onerous to code labels like this. The implementation could get almost out of hand in some situations
- 18:36:11 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: WCAG might say something about this. There may even be a WCAG technique
- 18:36:26 [jugglinmike]
- CurtBellew_: It might be "labels and instructions" or maybe one-three-one...
- 18:36:29 [jongund]
- https://www.accessibility-developer-guide.com/examples/forms/in-tables/
- 18:37:35 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: If you were reading a table with table-reading commands, and there were labels that matched the column header and/or row header, the experience would be awful
- 18:38:33 [jugglinmike]
- dmontalvo: I support transferring the issue to ARIA
- 18:39:42 [jugglinmike]
- dmontalvo: The closest topic in WCAG I could find is "H79"
- 18:39:56 [dmontalvo]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/html/H79
- 18:40:27 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: One place where this might be a gap is in accname calculation
- 18:40:53 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: But does accname take the "label" element into account?
- 18:41:05 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Yes; accname accounts for all possible ways of computing a name
- 18:43:49 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I think what might be a problem here is (at least for inputs) if you bring up a list of inputs, and they're not labeled in a table. That feels like an accname problem
- 18:48:24 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I'm startingto get the feeling that the answer needs to come from a different group, not from APG
- 18:48:40 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: And that until then, APG shouldn't make a change
- 18:49:33 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Based on our discussion here today, do we have consensus on that response?
- 18:50:18 [jugglinmike]
- CurtBellew_: I don't see enough evidence. Like I said, we suggest labeling just as a best practice
- 18:50:31 [jugglinmike]
- present+ AriellaGilmore
- 18:50:47 [jugglinmike]
- AriellaGilmore: I'd like to hear from ARIA before making the change to APG
- 18:50:58 [jugglinmike]
- CoryJoseph: I also think consulting with ARIA makes sense
- 18:51:15 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The more I think about this, the more nuanced I think the problem is
- 18:53:38 [jugglinmike]
- s/as a best practice/as a best practice, but not a requirement. We encourage folks to use "aria-labeledby" to reference table headers, but we don't insist
- 18:54:25 [jugglinmike]
- s/labeling as a best practice/labeling as a best practice, but not a requirement.
- 18:54:45 [jugglinmike]
- s/labeling as a best practice/labeling as a best practice, but not a requirement./
- 18:58:01 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: If anyone wants to attach some CodePens to this issue, that's cool
- 19:00:40 [jugglinmike]
- Zakim, end the meeting
- 19:00:40 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, howard-e, jongund, CurtBellew_, Daniel, AriellaGilmore
- 19:00:43 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
- 19:00:44 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
- 19:00:51 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 19:00:51 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #aria-apg
- 19:01:06 [jugglinmike]
- RRSAgent, leave
- 19:01:06 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items