Meeting minutes
date: 2024-03-08
George: We have the IDPF board, which as 14 people on it
… when the merger was envisioned, we were thinking that all the publishing activities would move to W3C and IDPF would dissolve
… leadership of the publishing industry would be in the hands of W3C
… because of the lawsuits, that hasn't gone to plan
… we've won the lawsuits, they didn't need to rule on the copyright one, as W3C has a valid license
… in the fall the IDPF negotiated an agreement where W3C would cover the D&O insurance and accounting for IDPF
… as long as those funds are continued, the license continues
… there are now some questions about how long would this be in effect
… when we started this, we thought it would be quite a while
… now, some folks think it should shorter
… we're in disagreement, but it's being discussed
… we have 14 board members who are currently not doing much
… we need to stay in existence
… but the discussion has been that there should be more integration with the W3C steering committee
… some of the members of the IDPF board voiced the desire to join the publishing steering committee
Bill_Kasdorf: That was a brilliant summary
… the only thing I would add is an important issue we identified
… it's important that it's demonstrable that W3C is actively supporting EPUB as a standard
wendyreid: What does it look like to be demonstrably supporting EPUB?
George: We need to work on it, promote it more
… for EPUB to continue, we need to have maintenance of EPUBCheck
… we've done fundraising in the past
… maintenance is looking like $10k a yea
… W3C needs to maintain EPUBCheck
… maintenance of the costs of IDPF insurance and such
… about $30k a year in total costs
… supporting new features, new work
… that's why we want the board joining the steerco
AvneeshSingh: Looking at it broadly, EPUBCheck is a detail
… broader goal is to support the EPUB and publishing ecosystems
… IDPF had a complete ecosystem
… when we came to W3C the standard became a priority
… IDPF supported the ecosystem at large
… we should encourage the IDPF board to join the steering committee
… leadership for the ecosystem
… marketing, promoting the standard
… improvements to the tools, reading systems
… we need to go beyond technical leadership
Bill_Kasdorf: Avneesh covered what I wanted to say
… it's not just a matter of maintaining EPUB and moving the technology forward
… it's a good group and it's a group that is underrepresented in W3C
… advocate for new work in W3C that is not just related to EPUB
… adds more meat to the role of the steering committee
… something we need to do more
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about concrete proposals
tzviya: We've been talking about this issue for years, we should not think about this in terms of membership
… membership is a separate conversation
… what are the actions for the steering committee
… what do we hope to happen?
… IDPF does not really function, the steering committee needs to think of things to do
… breathe life in to CG, run a conference, etc
AvneeshSingh: This is the main problem that I see, we are looking at the publishing ecosystem from the lens of standards world
… WG/CG is the structure we need to fit in
… our vision should not be confined with the structure
… the vision should be broader
… if we find that there are standards we want to develop
… we can form new WGs
… we need to incubate tools, reading systems
… the best practices from those might become standards
… we don't need to worry about what the WG is doing right now
… if steerco has a different culture, that's ok
… publishing can be different
… WG and CG should be seen as the wheels, but we need to move beyond it
… starting point to bring everyone together F2F
… let's go to where the publishing industry already is?
… get people face to face, the key priorities of the industry
<tzviya> wendyreid: I agree on some parts, but I think we need to be incredibly realistic about where we are today. I would love to incubate tools and RS. There have been many layoffs, and the whole industry is retreating from no direct ROI kind of work.
<ivan> +1 to wendyreid
<tzviya> ...I am fully in favor of an F2F, but there is a lot working against us
George: I agree that there is challenges with resources, trying to bring things into the CG to find people to take on the work
… I think by opening up the steering committee to IDPF members and in general trying to get more participation from the community
… having the requirement of being a W3C member, it's still that W3C mindset
… we need to broaden our appeal to people in order to get more participation
… one way to do it is bring fresh ideas into the steerco
… and more energy
Leslie: Coming at it from a publisher POV, ebook sales are down, audio is growing
… trade publishers thinking about ebooks, maybe thinking about accessibility and the deadlines
… you need to rework files, frontlist, backlist, etc
… that's publishers and their thoughts
… maybe thinking about AI
… the content may or may not be scraped by AI
… beyond that, they're not thinking about them
… it's a declining business
… if you're trying to energize, it's in those areas
liisamk: I agree with Leslie, where a lot of publishers are is an aging backlist of files, needs work
… the big project in front of anybody is getting it done, all or some
… is there a process for remediating
… quickly if complaints arise
… what this means for AI, in the counterfeit world
… how are you going to slow that down
… those topics are what we hear from for the business
… we can't just keep talking about them
… Daihei raised to me that in Japan, they don't just need TTS, they might need to do semantics and structure
… they're considering shutting Europe out of their sites to avoid fines
… we can take a leadership role
… you should do this for your own populations and the good of the world
Bill_Kasdorf: The point I wanted to make, I agree with most of the discussion, when I was talking about board members joininig
… it wasn't just about EPUB and our standards
… this conversation is book-centric, lots of publishing is not books
… another frustration for me is that there are W3C standards and discussions beyond publishing that are useful
… publishers aren't aware or ignore
… Web Annotations, Provenance, Verifiable Credentials
… VCs are essential to the solution
… we don't have responsibility, but we could be pushing them
AvneeshSingh: Thanks Liisa and Leslie for good examples, W3C is a standards organization, but our work is not just standards
… DAISY has achieved so much promotion and adoption of EPUB in the world
… W3C hasn't paid much attention
<tzviya> +1 to AvneeshSingh
AvneeshSingh: brand image of W3C is standards, and when the standards folk talk to the outside world, they speak from a standards perspective
… it's a communication and branding issue
… we need to address this to evolve the steerco
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask how that translates to standards or a conf
tzviya: It's really important, DAISY has done so much work
… there's so many W3C standards that apply to us
… Web Annotations, browsers don't support, but there's implementations
… Prov, VC, it's a bit controversial
… I can't just go out and build a tool
… we need to build tools if we want to tell people to use them
<Bill_Kasdorf> The new CP/LD spec from NISO uses publication manifest, annotations, prov, and verifiable credentials.
tzviya: what I've heard over the years, EPUB is a brand, IDPF/EPUB were inseparable
… people are working with EPUB and there's forking happening
… we need to reclaim EPUB
… ensure the work happening in the rest of the world is good work
… in terms of marketability, and that we can speak to people, it's not about interop of EPUB, it's reading systems
… the accessibility, the solution is not to shut off Europe, it's to discuss how we solve the problems
… maybe we include this in the DPUB Summit, or other events
ivan: Coming back to what Bill listed, and what Wendy referred to
… the problem from where I stand
… publishers don't pick up the a11y standards, the technical people are not at the publishers, at least how I see it
… they expect the technical world to come up with the solutions they'll use
… for the EPUB working group, our biggest problem is that we do technical work, we did not have publishers represented
… it's not bad will, but there's a gap with the technical people
… we need to talk about how we document and implement standards in a publishing context
… I don't know where it is or how to reach them
Bill_Kasdorf: To reinforce Ivan's point, you're right, with the exception of publishers like Elsevier or Springer with technical expertise
… the technical work in trade is happening in pre-print and conversion houses
… on the journals side, it's the journal hosts
… they do the conversiosn
… publishers rely on hosts, book production services
George: Joint meeting between the IDPF board and steerco?
tzviya: Everyone is invited to this meeting
AvneeshSingh: Not proposing a chair, next important step is engaging the IDPF board
… we need them to help us determine the future for the ecosystem
tzviya: It might be me sending agendas late, I can't continue this
AvneeshSingh: We can't rely on the efforts of one person, it's too risky
Bill_Kasdorf: Every IDPF board member, of those present, we do have quite a few
tzviya: It's good to have those that aren't active in W3C
George: When is the next meeting?
tzviya: April 12
George: We want to get April 12 into people's calendars, maybe have Ralph join as well
… IDPF folks, look at identifying co-chairs
… develop areas of work
… BG, CG, WG is an ok structure, I don't know if something else is needed
… need to get everyone together
tzviya: That meeting is happening the same week of the AC meeting
George: April 5?
tzviya: We can do that, but there is PMWG meeting
ivan: And people might be travelling
… might be safer to aim for the 19th
AvneeshSingh: Next steerco, its more than a month away
… putting so much stress on the meeting, we need to socialize the ideas to the members before the call
… George can you take the initiative?
liisamk: I'm not sure we're ready to meet with Seth and Ralph, we need to know what we want
… we need to figure out what we're doing and what we want
… I will co-chair if someone else will help
… happy to send out agendas
… can't always do it
tzviya: Maybe we can ask Rick as well?
Bill_Kasdorf: Paul Belfanti?
tzviya: April 19th for now
… whoever owns it in the W3C calendar
ivan: I will look
George: I can send out an invite to the board